I don’t know what else to say or where to begin. It has been a while since I posted on my own thread. After passing through some of the posts here from old friends, it made me feel like I’m not alone in term of unhappiness after piecing back together. Lately Andy seemed to be one of them and now Tbone and maybe someone else that I missed.
I don’t know what happiness really is – having a family intact, being with someone you love, being married, and so on. On the surface, there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with us. We talk, laugh, go places, and get together with family almost every week. Everything is normal as a typical family, but when it comes to our private life, thing doesn’t seem to happen that way. Almost all normal things have become abnormal (to me, not to my wife) – sleeping in a separate bedroom, hardly being alone together, no touching, hugging, kissing, or even sitting next to each other watching TV.
When it comes to sex, there is almost none to speak off. Only after a “thousand times” when I mentioned it, she would come over to my room and just lay there for me to touch and then she would only do a hand job just to help me (she refused to have anything else ever since her affair almost 4 years ago). I felt so cheap of doing so, and I didn’t want to do that any more and this “sex” thing only happened a few times so far.
She said there is nothing wrong with me; she just doesn’t have any desire for me any more and is perfectly happy without it. She doesn’t know why and she asks me to think of her as being “sick” when it comes to intimacy. By doing so, she said, my sex drive would eventually die off and we would live happily ever after.
Lately, I have been thinking more and more about divorce. That’s where I’m.
Still, it sounds a lot like what I'm going through myself. I've long said though the divorce has been busted, I'm still working my tail off saving the marriage. And the aspect of physical intimacy is the one thing that's most conspicuously absent. We share a room and a bed, we do hug and kiss (peck on the cheek, hello, good bye), but sex is almost non-existant. But we are rarely alone, and as you say, normal has become abnormal... or rather what might be considered by many as abnormal has become the norm in our house, too.
Actually, I see this lack of physical intimacy as being more broadly a lack of overall intimacy. I've been contemplating this a lot lately. W and I have always been conflict avoiders. We still are. Me less than I was, but she hasn't read all the books, done all the work, so she still is much as she always was or worse. In our efforts to avoid conflict, we often simply don't talk about things. In fact, this is why in my situation "NO OR talk!!!" was nearly a death knell to my marriage. It was more of the same stuff that wasn't working.
Yesterday, she rolled over and just snuggled, and I thought what a nice thing, maybe I can mention that this is one of the things we should do more of to bhuild our intimacy. Her response was 'why can't you just enjoy the moment and not talk about it'. Classic W. Don't talk about things that make us uncomfortable. Don't explore our needs, just "figure it out". She literally says this.
So I'm embarking on a new 180 beginning yesterday... I'm going to start talking about this, about intimacy. I'm going to make some minor comment daily, and try to draw her out. It's actually quite scary, because I don't want to nag or pursue, but I believe we must begin to communicate more completely about all this. After all, initimacy begins with communication, with sharing deep thoughts and secrets, with getting to know each other totally. "intercourse" it self means "conversation" as well as sex. So many terms that signify sex also are terms of communication and "knowing" the other. Intimacy is too often confused with sex, where it's really all about closeness, sharing, and getting to know the other deeply.
So, I'm working on communication and balance between being open and not pursuing. Could some of this work for you?
In a nutshell, I think I’m in the same boat when it comes to a subject of communicating with my wife. She doesn’t want to talk about thing and let it take its own course because in her mind there is nothing to talk about it, especially when it comes to intimacy. To her, all I want is to have “sex” with her. I’ve tried to explain to her before that that’s not what it’s all about. I mentioned to her that what we’re doing right now is not what we should be doing as a married couple – sleeping separately, no hug, no kiss, no deep talk, no time alone together, and so on. I felt like I was just there as a provider and/or fulfilled my duty as a father to my children and made sure that everything should be intact, no matter what whether I’m happy or not.
About a month ago while watching TV about Mrs. Clinton revealed her book, we ended up talking about what happened to us and my wife’s affair. That’s triggered all sorts of things and we ended up talking about things that we shouldn’t have. And then again, my wife kept telling me about the things that she would do to change our endless cycle that we were in. For the first time, she’s willing to read the books and asked me to give her some of the books that I had been reading in the past. I gave her couple books to read and I have not heard about it since. It has been more than a month or so. I have not seen anything happening either related to what she said she would do. I was thinking about bringing it up again, and then I was not so sure about it. Besides, she switched to a full time job for the summer about two weeks ago. She is also going to school two nights a week. With all these going on, I don’t think she even has time to do anything related to us because when it comes to me, I’m not even on her list, left alone doing anything for me or related to me.
However, she is expecting me to do everything for her, for the kids, for the house, you name it. When I asked her to spend time with me for a moment on Saturday night, she said she had to study, but ended up with watching TV with the kids until 2:00 am and wouldn’t wake up until noon the next day. She spent all day Saturday with her side of family along with the kids and of course including me because I had to drive. Like I said when it comes to me, there is no time, but when it comes to her family and the kids she has time. I don’t have any problem with spending time with the kids and once a while with her side of family, but almost every weekend and by the time we got home it was almost midnight. Then, that’s it, we went to our own bed room. The same cycle starts again. It is almost that is her plan to make it happens that way so that there is no time for just the two of us.
I think I might have to do some kind of 180 somehow.
Yeah. It's been awhile since you've had your own thread. Not that I'm really glad that you feel the need for one **sigh**
I'm not quite sure if I'm unhappy "after" piecing. In my case, things went from piecing to kinda nowhere.
You've been more "lonely at night" than I have for a longer period of time (it's only been 10 months for me), but I got some of the same stuff as you. I.e.: No desire... Don't know why..
Well, now, my W does know why, and it's because of me.
The only reason I mention all of this is because I think that perhaps your W has left a tiny opening.
Dunno. You've probably suggested it before, but d'ya think you could somehow convince her to see someone professionally?
If she wants you to consider her as being sick, then it wouldn't be out of line for you to want her to "get better."
I agree with Z that these issues are always broader than just physical intimacy. But you can hypothesize, educate yourself, read all the books, and it won't change a thing.
I'll level with you, LAN. My marriage has been flushed down the toilet by counseling. But my W is still seeing a C, and all I can hope for is that this is all part of a larger process.
And if you really want to try some kind of new 180, maybe you should try to push her into C. Could backfire on you as it appears to have done for me, but the jury’s still out on my sit. Maybe… just maybe… my W’s C will help, rather than hinder.
I agree with Andy about seeing if W would try some counceling. Right now, it sounds like W is stalemated and doesn't know what direction to go. As Andy observes, counceling could push things in a direction that you may not want them to go, but it will at least be something different, and somewhere toward some resolution.
In my situation, councelling has been wonderful, and W actually initiates it more than I. We've been in couples therapy with 2 different councelors now for almost 2 years (second C was recommended by first one). It hasn't been 2 years each week, but from time to time. We haven't been in a few months, but W wants to go again now, so after an upcoming vacation next week, I suspect we will start up again.
But, it's been very helpful. W seems to get locked in her own head lately. Her latest proclaimation explaining her reluctance to become intimately closer is her "guilt over what she's done...". But to me, the only way she deals with this is by stewing in it, by contemplating it. Stalemate. I'm sure this is something we can work on.
I don't know how to suggest how to get her to go to C. I got my W to go as an alternate to hiring lawyers to "negotiate a settlement". I suggested a divorce mediator, and we found one who was a therapist first, then a mediator. The "mediation" evolved into "couples therapy", with the mediator/councelor referring us to a true couples therapist after we "busted" the divorce, so we could work on the intimacy issues she felt insufficient in dealing with... I don't really recommend this approach, since with the lawyers and mediators involved, we were treading a knife edge line between divorce and reconciling. Happily, we didn't cross over.
That’s exactly what my situation has been. After piecing back together, we have been nowhere and more than three years has passed by. In term of progress, it is somewhat slow to the point where thing like you said goes nowhere.
I guess she must have realized that we couldn’t just stay with this way forever because like I said for the first time since her affair she was willing to read some of the books related to this life-event. She said I DID give her a second chance to have her here, so she wanted to do the same thing by giving me a second chance. By that, she meant to “love” and to desire me again physically and emotionally. If I remember correctly, she said that she wanted to learn/know how to be attractive to me again. She said it has nothing to do with me and it’s her.
The problem is she is too busy with school and part-time work that she has no energy/time to do anything else, even to read the books that I gave her a couple months ago.
Returning to school after 20 years, I guess, made it hard for her to adjust and she is still struggling with it.
In term of counseling, the resistance is still there. To her, it will cost $$$, be permanent record, and time consuming. In a nutshell, she doesn’t want to deal with it because she thinks that it would only benefit me. Why? Because she sees this as winner and loser and I have been trying to convince her that it’s for her own good.
I guess it has to do with “sex”. She doesn’t want it, but I want it. If she gives it then she is a loser and I’m a winner. Did you see her logic here? I mentioned to her that marriage is a two-way street, but she didn’t buy it.
I might have to talk a lawyer instead of a counselor as an option if this is what she wants because a “talk” without an action makes us go nowhere.
It sounds like your wife is too busy to read the books. Michele has an audio tape version of "Change Your Life and Everyone In It" aka "Fire Your Shrink". That book/tape is not marriage specific, so it might take some pressure off your wife as well.
Michele reads the book herself and I find that even after reading her books, listening to the tape makes it come alive for me.
Quoting LonelyAtNight: She said it has nothing to do with me and it’s her.
Oh how I hate hearing that statement!! I've come to the conclusion its a response to justify turning away from R vs. working on it. If they acknowledge it was an issue involving us, then they are acknowledging any hope that it can be changed as they know we will try to improve on our involvement, ... like, " ... its me, and I can't make it better, so you are going to have to accept its not gonna get better." ... yes, its very frustrating to be on the receiving end of that statement and its usually given in a tone that comes across as if you should be alright with that!
Sorry, LAN, not much in the way offering anything productive, but I can validate...
Quoting LonelyAtNight: I guess she must have realized that we couldn’t just stay with this way forever because like I said for the first time since her affair she was willing to read some of the books related to this life-event. She said I DID give her a second chance to have her here, so she wanted to do the same thing by giving me a second chance. By that, she meant to “love” and to desire me again physically and emotionally. If I remember correctly, she said that she wanted to learn/know how to be attractive to me again. She said it has nothing to do with me and it’s her.
To me, she is making the best case that can be made for counceling. She just doesn't see it. This all is exactly what councelling will give her and you. Individual councelling would likely help with her self-esteem issues, and couples with whatever signals you are giving that causes her to believe she needs to make her attractive to you. Couples C will help you both learn to love and desire again. It can be a long road, but it can help immensely with issues you just can't get through your self.
Quoting LonelyAtNight: The problem is she is too busy with school and part-time work that she has no energy/time to do anything else, even to read the books that I gave her a couple months ago.
Man, I hear that. My W "reads" for a living (she's in publishing). Reading for relationship work is the LAST thing she wants to do. As much as I would love to give her things to read, and as frustrated as it sometimes makes me to think she could learn so much if she just read a little, this is one of those things I just have to let go. In both of our cases, though, it's good that our Wives accept the books and allow us to give them. That way we are also given permission to share things we've learned from our reading.
Quoting LonelyAtNight:In term of counseling, the resistance is still there. To her, it will cost $$$, be permanent record, and time consuming. In a nutshell, she doesn’t want to deal with it because she thinks that it would only benefit me. Why? Because she sees this as winner and loser and I have been trying to convince her that it’s for her own good.
This is one of the more bone-headed things I've encountered myself. In fact, I think this image thing and money thing is one of the reasons my W is still with me and working on it. I don't believe she was ready, that she truly had the guts to suffer the humiliation and embarrassment that she anticipated she'd encounter actually admitting to her family and friends that she had failed at marriage, or that she had become involved in an adulterous affair.
In terms of $$$ and "permanent record", does your W have a clue about the $$$ and permanent record a divorce will cost? Councelling and reconcilliation is far less expensive in both areas. Could you gently point that out?
One of the thing I've learned in this mess is there is no Winner and loser in marriage.... there are only two winners or two losers. The trick is to always be winners, to find the compromise that makes the marriage work. I read a book called "Loveworks" that had as a major point the concept of finding the "Second Best Choice" in resolving issues. This is the "first best choice" that both parties can agree upon, the "best choice" to preserve the harmony and connection in the marriage. This is not "settling" for second best, or "giving in" to the other's wishes. It's both parties agreeing to possibly put aside their individual, possibly selfish first choice and an agreeing to something that both can equally accept and celebrate. Using this concept, there is no winner who refuses to compromise and has their will prevail, no loser who has been dominated and forced to compromise. Both, equally choose what works best for both of them. Both are winners! The marriage is the winner.
Quoting LonelyAtNight: I might have to talk a lawyer instead of a counselor as an option if this is what she wants because a “talk” without an action makes us go nowhere.
Do you have a councellor yourself? If so, you might get her invited to a session or two so she could test the waters. If not, it might be a good idea to help you deal with your frustrations.
Don't talk to the lawyer yet. The action they create is only destructive. It sure doesn't sound to me that you really want to go there yet...
Don't hide. Don't go away. LAN, you are an old timer here, you have been in inspiration to many, including me. I need your guidance now, our situations are very similar. Please stick around, no matter what happens, so we may all learn.
I wish I could express how much your thread here has bouyed me up, has supported me through a very tenuous time in my marriage. I'm at odds with what to expect, I'm disillusioned with the current progress... You show me I'm not alone. Maybe we can help each other, maybe we can help others.
I've come to the conclusion its a response to justify turning away from R vs. working on it. If they acknowledge it was an issue involving us, then they are acknowledging any hope that it can be changed as they know we will try to improve on our involvement, ... like, " ... its me, and I can't make it better, so you are going to have to accept its not gonna get better." ... yes, its very frustrating to be on the receiving end of that statement and its usually given in a tone that comes across as if you should be alright with that! 
