WW is onboard with trying to save the M

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Couple quick thoughts:

1. When the wife is in withdrawal (remember it has to be complete no contact - she can't still see, speak or write to him occasionally or check out his social media - no contact for life) then your "detachment" I like to refer to more as a "charging neutral". You are still fighting her wayward mindset and without OM in the picture you can actually start to make progress. The neutral in "charging neutral" is the mindset like you said "genuinely OK with whatever happens". She can leave. The cage door is open and you are not her keeper....and you'll be fine either way. There will come a point in time or two where you have to basically say "this isn't enough for me". Probably not yet but within 6 months or so of recovery when you sense her feelings are starting to return for you and she'll actually maybe get twinges of empathy for you and be able to hear the implications that she might lose you yet over this. Right now - she could take it or leave it because she sees no way to ever be "in love" with you or attracted to you again. Don't sweat it - my wife thought and felt the same thing. It's passes. She loved and was attracted to you before - she'll do it again and hopefully even moreso once she realizes fully how much you love her (betrayed husband forgiveness is one of the grandest gestures of love possible - God hates divorce and he has given betrayed husband's a legitimate biblical out of the marital covenant based upon Adultery. He knows how hurtful adultery is and doesn't call/require us to forgive AND reconcile.

2. Recovery is roller coaster - once off the first hill there are always little bumps, loops and turns before you return to the station. Try to listen instead of teaching. She'll say crazy things that you'll just have to ignore as foggy gobbly goop. Take road trips together and listen to relationship books on tape. Pause the tape and listen to her when she wants to talk about it. Guide her to teach herself.

3. Your wife's brain went through a reset. She was acting and behaving like a high school girl for some time there. Even though the affair is over the thinking is still immature. Sometimes you just have to meet them at there level and gude them back into responsible adulthood. Think of yourself as the big man on campus. The quarterback of the football team. He didn't chase girls around begging them to have serious relationship conversations and buying them gifts - no, he had a swagger and a confidence. Your wife SHOULD BE attracted to you and you know it. You are a good man that has a lot to offer in a relationship. She can take it or leave it. I'm not saying act like a cocky jerk but if and when she knocks you down or has talk of just not feeling it for you or being attracted to you - you can just slough that off as foggy nonsense. You can even say "you are wrong - I am attractive and lovable so perhaps we should get to the bottom of what has you thinking and feeling that I'm not - why do you think you think I'm not attractive or lovable when clearly I am?" Then take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. LISTEN. Let her talk in circles.

The answer to the question - At one point she didn't love OM. She may of though him cute or attractive but she didn't "love" him. Then they started investing time and energy into one another meeting each others most important emotional needs and then that lead to them meeting each others most important intimate needs. Her feelings for OM followed her actions....

Perhaps you can get her to just TRY the same thing and see. Just as an experiment or something what if you two just set aside the whole "I'm not attracted to you and don't think I can ever love you again" notion for 6 months. For 6 months anytime she has the feeling she should picture a stop sign and say "I'm not to think or ponder that thought until July 4, 2016 - just let it go and see". Then for 6 months you two set about building a new marriage. Don't rehash the past - don't talk about infidelity/adultery - don't talk about OM - if you are the studying type dive into some relationship books (get them on tape and listen together). Spend as much time together as possible. Schedule your time together. Learn to meet each others needs and simply BEHAVE - as if you are the perfect couple. (this is just behavior therapy - nothing I've invented). After 6 months of behaving like lovers - "love" feelings should follow. It's the natural consequence of the behavior. Feelings follow actions.

[JGuy]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts on detachment. It's good to know that it's normal for it to be a process that takes time. If that's the case, then I suppose I'm doing fairly well. Although I flip back and forth, If I look back, I'm definitely making progress on detachment as each week passes. It seems to be getting easier, slowly.

One thing that I identified which seems to be helping me over the past week is to just BE with whatever I'm feeling, moment to moment. As I have mentioned before, one of my challenges has been that I have a strong tendency to resist feeling my uncomfortable emotions, or even when I do, I have trouble feeling that my own emotions are even valid.

When it comes to detachment and moving through the process, my difficulty with processing and validating my own emotions doesn't help. IC and books have taught me that it's essential to feel the emotions before it's possible to move through them. So although I'm with you Azzork on the importance of moving past these melodramatic emotions to letting go and finding my mojo, my instinct is telling me that I'm just not there yet, and I need to work on accepting myself where I'm at first. My tendency to abandon myself emotionally is so strong that trying to move forward prematurely poses a real danger for me, of slipping into old patterns of self-abandonment. My IC has been helping me to see how this has to do with my birth trauma which caused me to form a deeply internalized belief that my own emotions aren't even real.

So, my guidance has been telling me that the right thing for me to do now is to focus on just feeling whatever I'm feeling. Whenever I do this, it's like jumping into a turbulent river in which I have no control. However, it always seems to carry me to exactly the right place in myself where I'm ready to take the next step. The detachment seems to come naturally after a phase of intense emotional processing.

All of this emotional processing is also opening me up to more emotional intimacy with friends and other people in my life. I have been finding that I am better able to empathize and connect with others as a result of this. Here is one example:

The other day while I was Christmas shopping, I had a particularly painful feeling that I couldn't even identify, which burned inside of me and wouldn't go away. I tried my best to stay with it and allow it to speak to me. I was holding back tears and fighting a very intense physical pain in my heart and throat as I was waiting in the checkout line with my stocking stuffers. While in this state, I felt a tremendous compassion for myself, which began to extend to all of the strangers around me. I found myself spontaneously loving everyone in whatever little way that I could. Looking people in the eyes, offering kind words, giving an extra big donation to the buskers playing Christmas music on the street... somehow this generosity was healing me in a way I cannot explain.

Later that day I attended my son's piano recital together with my wife. As each student performed, I felt tremendous love for them and for the beauty of the music. My heart was so open... I felt like Scrooge after his visit from the ghost of Christmas future! I felt like I was being lifted out of my personal pain into a bigger, open space beyond. It was so beautiful... it lasted a few hours, but I wish it could last longer. I wish that someone could see what I was feeling so that I could know that my experience was real and not just some dream. Again, so hard for me to validate my own emotional experience... I feel so alone sometimes, wishing that someone could be with me in that space to share what I'm feeling. I really need to know that the love I feel is real. Obviously it would be great if my W could meet me there, but I really don't care who it is. Anyone at all could relieve me from this aloneness.

I probably felt this way when I was a newborn crying for my mother while I was stuck in an incubator for 36 hours, and she didn't come. It's like I am still looking for some validation that my emotions are real because of that deep imprint of emotional abandonment during my very first moments entering this world. I sometimes imagine what I will be like when I finally heal from that... I imagine myself being such an emotional, compassionate person. Like I was that day, unconditionally loving every stranger that I meet...

[2point0]

JGuy that was beautiful. What you describe is something I have felt recently too.

A surge of compassion and empathy. I first attributed it to the season but I think now this is a huge turning point in where we as men rediscover a lost sense of self. A part of us that was buried under years of experience and conditioning.

[Sotto]

JGuy, what a beautiful post. When people talk about 'saving themselves' on this forum, they talk about just the kind of thing you are doing. I think when we are M or in a R, our partner often 'shores us up' and we don't really have to address some of these issues that lurk.

However, when BD happens, we are in such pain that different things happen. Some people run - find a new partner or other 'medicine' - others grow 'trauma growth.'

The thing about this growth is it opens doors to great peace and beauty, which have little to do with our nearest and dearest and everything to do with us and our experience of living life.

I'm so pleased for you that you are having such moments of wholeness and beauty. It sounds as though you are on a good path.

Take care xx

[JGuy]

You are still fighting her wayward mindset and without OM in the picture you can actually start to make progress. The neutral in "charging neutral" is the mindset like you said "genuinely OK with whatever happens". She can leave. The cage door is open and you are not her keeper....and you'll be fine either way. There will come a point in time or two where you have to basically say "this isn't enough for me". Probably not yet but within 6 months or so of recovery when you sense her feelings are starting to return for you and she'll actually maybe get twinges of empathy for you and be able to hear the implications that she might lose you yet over this. Right now - she could take it or leave it because she sees no way to ever be "in love" with you or attracted to you again. Don't sweat it - my wife thought and felt the same thing. It's passes. She loved and was attracted to you before - she'll do it again and hopefully even more so once she realizes fully how much you love her (betrayed husband forgiveness is one of the grandest gestures of love possible - God hates divorce and he has given betrayed husband's a legitimate biblical out of the marital covenant based upon Adultery. He knows how hurtful adultery is and doesn't call/require us to forgive AND reconcile.

Hey GB, nice to see you here back on my thread! I appreciate these thoughts and in a way, it helps me with detachment which is a real focus for me right now. While I don't follow a Christian faith, I do see truth in it and I agree completely that there's something very grand and beautiful about the kind of transpersonal love that it takes for a LBS to forgive the WS and patiently undergo the DB process. You are right, I can focus on the fact that I am a pretty darn good H. Not perfect, but quite capable of this kind of love, and indeed, perhaps my W will eventually come to see this. I have been letting my self worth be a bit too defined by her current words and actions, rather than maintaining a clear picture of myself and defining my self worth based on my own words and actions.

This really gave me a different angle on what can help me with detachment, GB. Thank you! Forgive me in advance, as I'm sure I'll probably need to be reminded again and again...

[JGuy]

JGuy that was beautiful. What you describe is something I have felt recently too.

A surge of compassion and empathy. I first attributed it to the season but I think now this is a huge turning point in where we as men rediscover a lost sense of self. A part of us that was buried under years of experience and conditioning.

Ah... thank you for seeing me 2point0! That's what I needed... to know that my experience is real. I must say, all of you DBers are starting to feel like a real support to me. I can't thank you all enough.

[JGuy]

Bad news. :-(

I checked phone records and saw that my W has been in contact with the OM every day or two, fairly continuously. She has been continuing to be dishonest.

Feeling very sad, in shock, and discouraged right now. I'm thinking about what I will say to her... this dishonesty has reached a limit for me. I am seriously thinking about separation now. I cannot deal with this!!!

[JGuy]

Just had a long talk with her. I was very stern but didn't lose my cool. Made it clear that the dishonesty is unacceptable and I can't continue being treated this way if we are going to have any chance of mending things. She assured me that their contact wasn't romantic anymore and she was just trying to keep the friendship. Didn't want to tell me because she was afraid I'd blow it out of proportion. Still no excuse for lying... And she underestimates the power this drug has over her. We talked a lot about the importance of no contact if she wants to work on the M. As long as she is leaking, it seriously undermines her motivation to work on herself let alone the M.

The conversation ended with her wanting another chance to really go for NC, and me feeling very reluctant to believe and trust her at all.

[Azzork]

She assured me that their contact wasn't romantic anymore and she was just trying to keep the friendship.

Im a little confused. What was the result of this?

Friendship?! Is that relationship worth ruining her marriage over...?

[indigo1]

Ah yes, the old we're just friends now line. I don't want to hurt him or I'm scared he will go nuts crap. I remember that like it was yesterday. Another Chance to go NC? Sure if you openly get access to every possible form of contact she could have. If she hesitates or gives you the you're invading my privacy line you have your answer to her intentions.

Now is the time for you to take a firm stand in my opinion. Gain some real respect back from her. You cant make her stop, but a line in the sand has to be drawn as to what you will tolerate. Only you can decide what to do from there if the line is crossed.