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Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: Vanilla] #2549053
03/19/15 09:56 AM
03/19/15 09:56 AM
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jim0987 Offline
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Mozza,

So unhelpfully I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said. (Patientman thankyou for such a considered and thoughtful explanation of your views)

I'm wrestling with a lot of the same thoughts as you Mozza. So for me its easiest to describe the questions rather than the answers. the sort of ones that scurry about in my head include:

- What am i standing for now?
- at what point does 'standing for my marriage' just start to look delusional?
- Do I look weak?
- Does this keep me as plan B?
- Is me dating really going to make the situation any worse?
- Am i thinking of dating just out of jealousy and loneliness?
- Does it matter?
- Is not dating just keeping me stuck be cause it keeps me focused on what I've lost?
- Are there reasons other than a piece of paper to stop me dating?
- What shows self respect?
- How much more 'Opportunity cost' am i willing to sink into this no longer existant relationship
- And the classic but I know unimportant, what will my W think if and when she finds out?

But this then links to the more fundamental questions around how much headspace i'm still giving my wife (and unfortunately OM) and the whole awful situation.

So i've just said all of this and know all the complexities about legality and morality vs practicality and reality (the UK is 2 years seperation for a no fault divorce), so for me I think there is one key question to answer to know whether dating is the right option:

If you could sign all the divorce paperwork and the divorce be finalised today, would you sign it? And how would you feel about it?

How you answer this I think will tell you a lot about where you truly are on this.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: Maybell] #2549113
03/19/15 03:02 PM
03/19/15 03:02 PM
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Mozza Offline OP
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MCS | Yes, it looks like this could have become a major hijack of your thread! You ask if I do this because of what my W did to me. Well, yes: because she left me and committed to an OM. Not, again and again, because she cheated on me, as I've demonstrated in 2009. I hope it's becoming somewhat clearer that I'm not trying to exact revenge; I don't even wish for her to know about my (eventual) dating.

Vanilla | Thanks, I get your point about holding my head up high. What might not be clear is that is already how I feel, even if I date before D. While we were together, I didn't cheat on her, I stood by her, fought for the M, didn't want to D. After she left me, I went on with my life and met other people. As for your previous, thoughtful post, I hope I have clarified since then that it is not because my W has cheated on me or that I need to feel a connection. It is about me.

jim0987 | I was hoping you'd contribute to the conversation because we've had some exchanged on this topic in the past. I really like your list of questions. Regarding your key question, let me ask you one in return to clarify your thoughts: If I'm D but still hoping to R, does that mean I need to remain faithful? I'm trying to understand if you (and some others) believe that I should be faithful because I am M or because I want to R, or because I want to R while M.

Originally Posted By: Maybell
Interesting... I have done a tiny amount of flirting with no possibility of sex, but I feel like my self-respect started improving when I started standing up for my own needs (with STBX and others). Sex had nothing to do with it. Think this is a man-woman thing or something else?
Yes, this is a big part of it: standing for myself. This discussion focuses on the sex because it is sex (might be a red herring), but it is really more about self-respect. It is in the same line as refusing to be my WAW gay boyfriend. She's moved on and so am I. She wants back? I'm open to discuss.

_______________________________

For those interested in what one can find in therapy, here's an example related to our discussion.

I perceive work as a place of abundance. Many times, I have taken chances and left jobs for short contracts and every time it has paid off. A couple of years ago, I left a six-figure job to start my own business, without even being nervous. Right now, I barely deliver to my clients, because of my sitch, but I'm not worried that it will go back up when I feel better. I'm just confident that I deliver a good service and that there will always be demand.

I perceive relationships as a place of shortages. I find it hard to convince a woman to be with me. I will freeze rather than walk up to someone and start a conversation. I am not confident in my product. I've had few relationships and they way they started didn't give me the confidence that I could meet my needs at will. It made me accept difficult circumstances for fear of having to confront my fears again, of being alone or in a worse relationship.

As a reference point, I have a close friend who's the opposite of me. He's confident around women, but he's stuck in a bad job that he doesn't have the nerve to leave. He's demoted, under the threat of transfer, overworked, etc. I would have quit this job a long time ago and he's kind of puzzled that I'm still crying over WAW.

These are the kinds of things that I discovered about myself with my IC and my readings such as NMMNG and others. Now the goal is to change my perception of relationships to a healthier one. Much like I approach a client without being tied to the outcome, I need to approach women without (or less) fear of rejection. I need to be in charge of fulfilling my needs myself, and move on when someone is unavailable, rather than cling as if this was the only potential partner. WAW is a cheeseless tunnel: the cheese has moved, let's find it.

This is why I'm open to flirting and dating. Because it is the healthy and self-respecting reaction to rejection. Again (and again): not to cheating, but to outright rejection. My take does not apply to all sitches, but to mine where my W is committed to someone else and living with him. I'm still proudly DB'ing and hope to eventually reconcile with my WAW, but this ball is in her court. Me standing at her door until she changes or mind or that some local law allows her to rip apart our M certificate is not a healthy reaction.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: Mozza] #2549151
03/19/15 04:26 PM
03/19/15 04:26 PM
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Wonka Offline
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Mozza,

I am going to take your "arguments" in context for simplistic sake.

There are laws against stealing, right?

Your wife has stolen property.

You look at this scenario and say to yourself, "Hey, W is doing it. I might as well steal too. W has compromised herself morally by stealing...a criminal, blah blah."

Does this mean that you are emotionally okay with stealing without conscience? Does that make it okay for you to steal too?

This is the exact same point I am making about your so-called desire to "date" just because you point at W and yell...."well, she's involved with the OM. She's a bad woman for getting into an A so I shall date."

Do you see how crazy this logic is???

Again, are you wanting to "date" because you've reached a point of no return and feel completely at peace with this. I think not. It is more of "hey, I can play this game too!" This is the central point of your own motivations to date.

This is why we are all urging you to dig deep and really take a hard look at your true motivations to "date" others.

To me, you are making intellectual arguments (i.e. cultural norms, societal views, etc.) to deflect attention away from your own true motivations.

When one strips away the so-called cultural norms and other intellectual arguments, then one's left with the inner nudge that informs you that one is being out of alignment of your heart center.

Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: Wonka] #2549223
03/19/15 06:38 PM
03/19/15 06:38 PM
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jim0987 Offline
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Hi Mozza,

In truth i'm not that complex, Although i could probably type out a lengthy thesis on probabalistic decision making and the differences between decisions and outcomes.

I looked at that key question quite simply, if you would answer 'yes' that would sign the papers today (if you could) and be ok with that then emotionally you are much more in the position to start thinking about dating.

By answering yes what you are saying is 'I'm done with this relationship' thats not saying you're permanently closing the door on any relationship with your wife but it does massively increase the chances of future relationships not being with her (and by consequence reduces the probability that it will be).

But equally by saying yes you have to ask so why arent you proceeding with the divorce? again is the answer anything other than because of legal technacalities about timing and/or fault?

I suppose i think there are 4 elements to the divorce, Practical, Emotional, Legal and Moral and its about checking against each one of these to see where you are and making sure that you're ok with your choices. Its a safe bet that in yours (and mine) your wife would say she is divorced in 3 out of 4 of these.

As wonka has said, your still legally married and so if you do start dating it makes you an adulterer (in the eyes of the law) irrespective of what she has or hasnt done.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
Because it is the healthy and self-respecting reaction to ..........outright rejection. My take does not apply to all sitches, but to mine where my W is committed to someone else and living with him. I'm still proudly DB'ing and hope to eventually reconcile with my WAW , but this ball is in her court. Me standing at her door until she changes her mind or that some local law allows her to rip apart our M certificate is not a healthy reaction.


So i feel like this paragraph is key and I can honestly say I recognise a lot of the sentiment and agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence.

The bit I've bolded is where I see the conflict because this makes me think that you wouldnt sign the papers and if you wouldnt then as well as legally, emotionally you're still married.

It is interesting the different reaction people get on here about this sort of thing though.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: Mozza] #2549323
03/19/15 11:07 PM
03/19/15 11:07 PM
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Posts: 1,126
Detached from EVERYbody
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PatientMan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Me standing at her door until she changes or mind or that some local law allows her to rip apart our M certificate is not a healthy reaction.

Agreed.

What I disagree with is this:

Originally Posted By: Mozza
flirting and dating...is the healthy and self-respecting reaction to rejection.

Where did you get that idea?

Respecting yourself isn't forcing yourself to date, it's allowing time for you to grieve, process, and heal before you jump back out there.

-PM

Last edited by PatientMan; 03/19/15 11:13 PM.

M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: PatientMan] #2549508
03/20/15 05:57 PM
03/20/15 05:57 PM
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Posts: 2,516
California US
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I read this one yesterday ... thought about replying but did'nt ... gave it some thought and came into work and the page was still up on my computer so I figured ... why not.

I do think you are in a tough spot as most the people here are of the mindset to "save the marriage" by saving ourselves first.

So I have been in my sitch for some time .. what .. 1.5 years now that we have been separated. W and I have not had sex 3 years up to that point. Lets say a good 3-5 years of a problem filled marriage. I think one of the lessons I have learned is that when you focus on one thing it becomes larger and has the ability to consume you. A few years ago I was convinced that the lack of sex was the issue in my M, well to be honest after reading and looking at myself in the mirror the sex was a result of a troubled marriage not the cause. And I am happy to report that I am still alive and well after that spell of no sex, contrary to some beliefs you can live... albeit frustrating, but its not a life threatening issue.

As far as dating while you are legally married ... I am still legally married, W left back in Nov13 and sure .. I thought about dating .. she had her OM "why not me" type of thing. I was still attempting to save the M so I held true for a long time. The D thing started rolling its wheels in my direction so a about a month ago I figured ... why not, I went out on a date with a girl I had been talking to for a couple weeks. She new my sitch, everything was out in the open .. not concealed.

We meet up, had a great time ... really did. That being said on the drive home I realized quickly, not what I want, not who I am, not who I want to be, most importantly I am no where near ready to open up and share myself emotionally. It just did not feel 'right' even though it was fun to go out and GAL. This girl asked me "Would you ever get married again?" I was not ready to even attempt an answer nor think about that question. I have been in a R with my W for 24 years, married 14. I am not sure how long it takes but I do know that for me, it was not fair to this girl I went out with (she was ready, looking to move on and into a serious R) ... I am not ready to just jump into another R when my M is still all be it on paper, legit and who knows what may come of it.

As far as dating and flirting pumping up an ego ... not so much. The ego and confidence I think stems from within .. just as we have found out that one can never make the WAS happy ... nor can an outside influence truly make us happy, that comes from within. Flirt and wink all ya want ... push comes to shove the confidence is not there nothing else matters. Date when you are ready .. not just to one up your WAS ... that R will not last. If revenge is truly your motivation I dont think it takes much to see that will not be setting a great foundation.

My opinion, at this time in the game, at our age (anything mid 30's and on) we all have some baggage. With what a LBS has gone through, serious baggage that must be dealt with or the next R when and if that happens is going to be set up to fail. A wounded bird can not just jump out of the nest ... heal, mend, regain confidence and then when its time, fly.


M: 44
W: 44
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: CaliGuy] #2549523
03/20/15 07:21 PM
03/20/15 07:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
Rhode Island
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HeavyD Offline
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Those are wise words!


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: CaliGuy] #2549525
03/20/15 07:31 PM
03/20/15 07:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
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Rhode Island
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HeavyD Offline
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Those are wise words!


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: HeavyD] #2549565
03/20/15 09:19 PM
03/20/15 09:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 471
New England
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Little Offline
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I'm worried I'll NEVER feel like dating again. LOL


ME: 38
BF: 40
T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice)
BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R.
10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW
12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Re: Mozza (10) + Links to success stories [Re: PatientMan] #2549619
03/21/15 01:52 AM
03/21/15 01:52 AM
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Mozza Offline OP
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Let's take a break from the flirting/dating/sex discussion. We'll get back to it.
____________

There's been a couple of fantastic posts today and I'd like to mention them here.

First, there's sandi2 that's killing it as usual on the wayward wife. She writes about not letting the WW back too easily, but what struck me was a paragraph about being firm and detached with the WW.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Let me lump you and any other LBH'S together when I say you need to stop with the antics. They don't work, and you can make matters much worse. Which, considering she's in an A, moved away with the kids, and has the upper hand.......seems questionable, right? It's true, though, you can be your own worst enemy. The LBH can louse things up by trying all kinds of gimmicks to get her back. Ironically, it is when he drops all of that stuff and leaves her alone that works better than anything. Just stop trying to get her back, b/c it is causing you to do bad things.

Use the time you are leaving her alone to turn yourself into an attractive, confident man who doesn't have to beg someone to love him. Grow as person and build a new life. If the two of you get back together some day, you can introduce her to your new friends and interesting activities. Please don't let your eyes just skim over these words. It is said so much here on the board until I wonder if men tune it out. They are looking for something quicker and easier. Drop the rope you have around her, change yourself, and get a life.

After only a few months on these boards, I'm already peeved at the newcomers who break this rule constantly weeks after learning them, even knowing that it harms their sitches. I'm not surprised that sandi2 is getting a little irritated of spending so much time repeating it. Guys: get a grip, your chances depend on it. I'm a major wet noodle (I still cry every day), but I never ever act it out in front of my W. DB or don't, there is no try.

Second, we've got more good news from T0324, who's now in piecing after her H filed for D and had an OW. T0324 had pretty low moments, was very upset, ready to give up, etc. He post builds on what she heard from her H since then to give a look behind the scene. It turns out that she had misinterpreted many things, which is a reminder to avoid mindreading. This paragraph spoke to me because of my sitch.

Originally Posted By: T0324
When I found out about OW I had already gone pretty dark (well to me). Through the course of the months during his OW time - H initiated communication. I hardly did unless it was kid, bill or house related. I was pretty curt and short with him overall. H could never look at me or be in person with me. The couple times we went to dinner (before I knew of OW) he acted very friendly and chatty. Once I found out about OW I didn't mention Her. As much as I wanted to she wasn't worth it. I didn't want them to know they had the satisfaction of my response (hence her 12000 Instagram and FB photos of them with childish quotes)

I do the same with WAW, cutting all communications to a minimum and being rather curt (today it took me 3 words to set up the phone call on D6's birthday). What's interesting is that T0324 ended up meeting her H regularly a few months into the sitch, when things were going sour with the OW, and she gave him an eye full. It all went according to BD: she was detached and he was puzzled, she was consistent and he was eventually convinced, the A played out and the timing was right, etc.
_______________________

PMA report | I feel like a brick house that's burned. The fire is almost over, the walls are still up, but it's desolate inside. The crisis is behind me and I've gotten used to my situation, but I don't have my energy and motivation back up, except in certain social settings. I'm numb, a bit sad, but far from panicked as I was months ago. I'm happy about this. It seems like a step towards a better place.

Detachment report | I'm doing good this week. I'm rather detached from WAW. I simply don't want to hear about or from her. I don't care much about OM or any activity she's doing. I'm not really jealous of any of it. I think of some boring or annoying moments with WAW and it doesn't feel so bad that she's not around right now. I try not to wonder if I want her back, under what conditions, etc. I try to think as little as possible about her. My conversations about my sitch are much more about me now. One thing that helps is that I've almost nothing to chew on when it comes to WAW: we have no contacts and I've cut almost every social media. There isn't much I can think of or discuss because I just don't know anything. She's turning into a concept, an idea almost. It's a good thing.

GAL report |I had a great evening Thursday with a close friend. I cooked him a good adult meal (dry aged sirloin, blue cheese, Brussels sprouts - mmmm), we drank and then we went out to a bar with a ping pong table. Really fun. He's the friend with the same issue as me, but with work rather than women (perception of scarcity). We talked about it. Wednesday, I played badminton. I continue my 7-minute workout but strangely I skipped many days this week, while I had been very consistent for 5 months. During the day, my work productivity is next to nil. Sometimes, I wish I had a 9 to 5 job with colleagues to force me to get things done.

Flirting report | No action to report, only reading. "Models" by Mark Manson is more educating that I had anticipated. It's about attracting new women, but it's full of fantastic insights on attraction between WAW and LBH. In fact, I plan to quote some paragraphs here and I'll soon start referring the book to LBH who don't seem to get why being needy with their WAW is repulsive. I think it can be as useful as NMMNG.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
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