H is running again

[happy1]

So one of the recommendations of my coach was to disclose the ah ha I had about never wanting to minimize H to the point he has no voice and to continue to to give him space and not push R talks further. Listen, validate, empathize.

I did have the chance to talk to H but not sure it went well. H came here and said he was going back to our summer home which is under construction. He keeps going there to check on it or maybe something else is going on I do not know and told me he is going there again but will be back in the am.

I started to spew and was EVERYWHERE in the conversation. Here is what I remember:

W: We worked so hard to get this family to be together, without me telling you a time to be here and stay for x time...then I cry, cry. And then go on to say things like I never meant to have you lose your voice in this relationship or have a 50-50 split. Me driving in work has worked but is obviously not working in the relationship. I have to work on it. You know when DD does not kiss you and pulls away how you feel, that is how I feel when you do not want to have sex and it is more than intimacy. I thought this new house would be our project together and I still want that. We have a chance to show DD the way to communicate,love and respect. I am sorry.

H: (Sits for a long time not talking).
I cannot reply to you right now as I am really angry. I do not want anything to come out the wrong way and do not I want to cause another explosion.

W: (Sits for time) I understand and I did not say those things to have you say or expect you to say apology accepted and move on. We have done that before and it has not worked. We both have the tendency to fix things we cannot push this under the carpet. If we want to break this cycle we have to do something different

H: (nodding, I think)

W: I have the number for the DB coach for you if you want to call her next week

H: Thank you, I will think about it. We'll see.

W: I will give it to you tomorrow when we meet. And if you tell me that you do not want me to share what I am sharing about what I am learning about myself,just tell me

H: "I will see you tomorrow." Kisses me. Goes to get me klennex.

W: I see him out and give him snack for the road

H: Hugs me

W: "Are we going to get (to better)" (I am not even sure what I said)

H: "Yes"

I am having such emotions now I am not sure what I am doing.

I am to start a new job in two weeks and I am exhausted and will have a change where I will not see my daughter but an hour a day and weekends.

[Zelda09]

Happy - catching up on your thread here, from the post you made on mine...

So here are some similarities:

The statements in your very first post - kind of erratic, severely depressed, withdrawn, helpless statements, lashes out and says awful things - yes, depression is a big deal. You guys have def been on a roller coaster.

I was also pushing my H for kids and it affected our sex lives. I asked him this point blank and he sad it was probably a factor (before BD). The other thing is that guilt for not being the sexy provider and strong part of the M makes it real hard for them (eh...or not). My H recently expressed that his own guilt for not being able to do more has turned to anger, directed everywhere.

The distancing -pursuing thing - here's a thought, brought over from my MC sessions - it may not be that clear cut. What you shared with me about the ENTJ style. Even though my behavior - and maybe your actions to an extent is to pursue and chase - what is your emotional role here? If we are in a similar situation, I would guess you're emotionally the distancer and he's the pursuer.

Mine has also left me and our friends with the vague feeling he never wanted to be M, and got pushed into everything. One of our friends even said it - 'just didn't have the aura of a guy who wanted to be there and build something.' This has nothing to do with love or the relationship, but lack of decisiveness and self-knowledge that I think I was all too happy to make up for. Coloring in blanks for him and meanwhile ignoring his emotional needs. So, with his admission this weekend that he loves building his life around other people and fixing their problems to avoid his own...again, if there is a similarity - he's got to find his center and independence, and maybe there's room for a question for you - was there something attractive to you about his passivity, like clay you could sculpt?

You and your H have been at this for a while. Keep having conversations, have faith. Try to get him to explore the idea of a therapist for the depression if he hasn't already - I think all signs are there.

Mine has also shut down in anger, very guarded, and I have little good input on how to pursue or distance in a way that will break cycles...just what I shared about the validation on my thread. And even then...there were moments a month ago he also opened up and then would shut down and say he had nothing to say, was too angry to make a response.

Good luck to you...I feel so much of your pain. Are you working two jobs on top of all this or just switching?

[happy1]

Talked to H yesterday.
We had a long conversation, lots of crying, my side and his.

H wanted to know if I felt abandon and I said yes.

H says his LL is RESPECT and that I do not keep my commitments and get what I want by clawing until he caves.
H says he does not ask for much.

Here are his examples:

Examples: H asked for a birthday cake at DD baptism so we could sing h bday to others. I did not get a cake. This was DD day and did not want to bring in others to her day. He did the same thing at our wedding--he gave speech and used the time to congradulate his sister on her recent graduation from a program. And he left me during our dinner to sit outside and console his brother. I am just giving these point for context.

I HATE when he does this stuff and he does it all the time--does not want spotlight on him so he gives it away. Fine if he does not want on him but not fine when it comes to US or DD. Bottom line: I was not going to derail from DD day and get a bday cake.

Example: DD 1st bday. H wanted no party. I wanted a party. Sister offered to host everyone which is over 50 people. Just his family is 40 of the 50 people. H said no. So I compromised at just Grandparents and Godparents which is 9 people (including me, H and DD). H said maybe and I asked the 6 people. H later said he did not want a party at all. So I told him I would cancel. Turns out 1 day before H mom does want to see DD and so H asks how we can make it happen. I rearrange and ask my parents to come on same day a m-i-l, pick up m-i-l and then get a lunch for everyone. At party m-i-l announces, during the smash cake part, that she wants to go home b/c she has to get to a funeral. My parents have to leave. My parents come back the next day to spend more time with DD. So in the end, we wind up having a party and I am the one who has to make it all happen.

Example: For our wedding he wanted Indian Flute music. I did not agree and did not get floutist (is that even a word). I did agree to an in-town wedding with 100+ people when I wanted to have a destination wedding but his parents would not come so we had in town. He does not care....he wanted flutes and I did not get them.

Example: He says he agreed to try one final time for a baby. Says I did not respect the agreement by pushing for another baby. I said he aways was the one who wanted more than one child. He says that was when we were younger and given al the chaos going on in our lives H cannot understand why I want to bring another child into the family. I asked why H did not state this when I had a serious conversation with him back in Sept. In Sept I asked him why we were not having sex and even asked if he was sick, if he was gay, if I smelled, if he was having an affair. He said no to all the above reasons and that he would try better. Never did he say: W..I am trying to be sensitive to you wanting more kids but you are pushing and pushing to get your way and we should not have more kids b/c of x, y, z. This is my final answer W. H had no response when I said above. I was crying b/c I have tried to have conversations and get the run around.

Example: We agreed on how we would handle a conversation with a contractor and when we got in the situation, I changed the conversation. I did change the conversation b/c the contractor was totally confused by my H's words. The contractor asked me, while my H was spewing everywhere, to help b/c he was not understanding, so I did change the conversation. H is a very bad communicator. The things he wants to say do not come out clearly and he gets very anxious so many times it all comes out in a way that leaves the listener baffled.

H says he does not care that it went down that way, we had an agreement and I broke it.

I tried to validate, but there is so much in his comments and some are back to 2005....which we left behind. And so much is tied to my need to control OR simply because H is a bad communicator, procrastinator that I wind up doing 'it all".


H told me that I am so unhappy and that I should think about what I am saying.

Me: I am mad about things but not unhappy and that I would prefer having a mediator in our conversations as we had with past coach.

There was more talk and crying on both sides. Hand holding and hugs and ILUs. Basically about how we have these great lives and how stupid we are being...it all sounds so petty. I did tell him the coach said we need to grow up.

So in the end he said he would call coach and we would go from there.

I know my situation is not as complex in that there is no OM, OW, drugs, violence, ect. But as MWD says some marriages end for lesser things.

We will see what happens with the coach.

sigh.

[Nettles]

H says his LL is RESPECT and that I do not keep my commitments and get what I want by clawing until he caves.
H says he does not ask for much.

Do you keep your commitments?

H says he does not care that it went down that way, we had an agreement and I broke it.

Sounds like you did. H is a man, not a child. And this was a "manly"-type things.

I tried to validate, but there is so much in his comments and some are back to 2005....which we left behind.

We left behind? Doesn't sound like it was "we".

So in the end he said he would call coach and we would go from there.

I hope H honestly wants to do this and isn't caving. That won't be productive if he is. Just another item for his list if he did.

I know my situation is not as complex in that there is no OM, OW, drugs, violence, ect. But as MWD says some marriages end for lesser things.

Previously, you wrote that H responds "to be happy" when asked what he wants. That doesn't seem to be a lesser thing, but a serious reason to consider D if H feels he can't be happy in the M.

Have you asked H want it means "to be happy"? What does H's life look like for H to be happy?

With the examples you gave in your post, did you respond to H with you 'reasons'?

[happy1]

...and this is what I needed...not what I expected.
Thank you Nettles.
Bring the man cave over here and I am sure I would get more hit me in the head advice, replies.

and sheepishly and with a sinking feeling, I reply:

Do you keep your commitments?

Yes at work.
No at home: I flex the commitment based on the experience as I think my way is general better. Sometimes commitments are kept, but more over I do what I want.

Previously, you wrote that H responds "to be happy" when asked what he wants. That doesn't seem to be a lesser thing, but a serious reason to consider D if H feels he can't be happy in the M.

You are right. Happiness is not a lesser thing...how can I be so dense.

Have you asked H want it means "to be happy"? What does H's life look like for H to be happy?

I have asked and H cannot articulate what he wants.

With the examples you gave in your post, did you respond to H with you 'reasons'?

...I did reason support most of the examples and for the ones I validated rather than rationalize I did not get a good response from him. So I just should have validated.

He is really really angry.
I am seeing this in a different light. I have work to do.
Are there still KLA in person groups?

[Lostinpain]

Hello Happy,

It sounds like you are on some path to recovery. One thing that stuck out to me was your husband rewarded you with sex for good behavior. Later you mentioned that you had control issues. Forgive me if this has been mentioned as I did a brief read through, but is it possible him withholding sex isn't entirely about children? Perhaps he has found a way to control your emotions in a passive aggressive manner by abstaining from sex with you. Women have done this and just because you are a woman does not mean a man cannot do it to you.

Also, it sounds like you had a brutal few years. Have you sought counseling for problems for yourself aside from marriage? I can't even imagine going through so many miscarriages and coming out unscathed! A happy you will definitely promote a happier marriage and mom to your child.

I am glad to see you two are coming to some agreement. It sounds like you are open to change on your part which is always a good start.

[Nettles]

and sheepishly and with a sinking feeling

From now on, it'll be 'accept, learn, apply/change'...

Yes at work.
No at home: I flex the commitment based on the experience as I think my way is general better. Sometimes commitments are kept, but more over I do what I want.

That's a great start Happy! Now, are you able and willing to change that? It won't be easy

I have asked and H cannot articulate doesn't know what he wants.

I fixed that one for you. Give him some time and space to figure that out. H owns his happiness. Right now H knows what doesn't make him happy. Resist the urge to tell him what makes him happy or try to make him happy.

So I just should have validated.

Yup. Who is it around here that always writes "Lose the scorecard. Your S has one too and you aren't doing so well on theirs" or somesuch?

He is really really angry.

Give him the time and space to be angry. Those are his feeling.

I am seeing this in a different light. I have work to do.

Is there a commitment you have made or can make to H and keep? That'd be a cool way to start.

[Zelda09]

Happy -

One thing stuck out at me, in the 'takes one to know one sense'... Your husband said his LL is respect.

You describe him discussing with a contractor, that he is 'spewing everywhere.' Sounds like you are critical here, or don't respect the way he communicates or deals with things (procrastination). Judgement gets in the way of that unconditional love people want to feel. He is probably picking up on it.

I'd complain to my friends in a similar vein. And try to not let H know how frustrated he made me, at least about some things. But he picked up on my attitude about him in hundred of little ways.

My H told me that I would be happier with a man like xy or z a few days ago, people he sees as in a different league. My IC recently asked me if I would ever be able to simply accept him and that is a deep question I need to think through.

Disappointment, frustration, contempt - all that stuff feels pretty unloving to our dear spouses. No matter how perfect the communication, they'll feel it if it's there. So...how to look at it and really get rid of that toxic judgement if it is there? My 2 cents. If I'm way off...apologies.

[happy1]

Had to absorb the recent comments and really think about my replies:

Here are some thoughts:

is it possible him withholding sex isn't entirely about children? Perhaps he has found a way to control your emotions in a passive aggressive manner by abstaining from sex with you. Women have done this and just because you are a woman does not mean a man cannot do it to you.

Oh yes, I think withholding sex by H it part of his p-a nature and his way to have control.

I get mad b/c if he had more sex with me, I would be nicer to him OR if I was nicer to him, we would have more sex. Egg-Chicken. Classic

I flex the commitment based on the experience as I think my way is general better. Sometimes commitments are kept, but more over I do what I want. Can I change?

This is a big change. I think I can change. I think part of what I need to do is if there does need to be a change to a commitment, I have to get agreement with H. Also, I have to do some asking of H of which things are firm requests and which are just ideas...H does not clearly state things as I mentioned he has trouble with communication OR I need to validate, check in with him on what I heard. I started this yesterday with a decision we had to make...he gave an answers and later I validated what I heard from him and asked if it was his final answer. That seemed to work.

Any other ideas?

how to look at it and really get rid of that toxic judgement

Can I just accept H for who he is? This is a big change for me b/c I am a type A, overachiever, planner who likes improvement, better, more. So I think it is more than just H I think it is if I can be satisfied with what I have, grateful. Does this make sense?

Give him the time and space to be angry. Those are his feeling.

I am giving H space and have not talked R since I had the melt down 2 days ago. He is not staying with me, he goes 2 hrs away to stay at other home. He comes to house after work and tends to DD and then leaves. I am not asking him to stay, although it pains me every time he leaves I know it is the right thing for now..

But he is staying around to talk to me each time longer than before and he sits closer to me each time. He is kissing me and saying ILU and sending me check in text during the day

I am slightly testing waters to see what works. I sent a couple of text to him with nice quotes and he responded with thoughts back or ILU.

I also think about being like a lover more each time I talk to him. And also like a bestie.

Bestie is working for me, but like a lover not so much. I am still hurt and I want to be sure we get this right this time. We were too quick on our last attempts to heal so I do not want to move into lover mode, or should I say, I know we should not move into lover mode so we get it right. (quick fixes did not work)

Any other ideas?

Is there a commitment you have made or can make to H and keep? That'd be a cool way to start.

Great idea: I have to think about this. I am leaning towards making the new house project truly our project. This is what I wanted as the thing that we do together and I am sure H thinks it will be all my stuff.
Is that just too big--I am sure house remodels may not bring out the best in people. I just want it to feel and be ours.

[TenBook]

I would recommend something called DISC as a behaviour profile. It is meant to be used as a way to communicate with someone who may have a different style.

Sometimes with personality profiles it gives us info but often times, hard to determine what to do with that info.

There is a website called manager tools that can explain how DISC works and how to apply. The pod casts are free and I would recommend them greatly.