living with WAW who hasn't walked yet

[zew]

To this, ye21 replied:

Well, do you believe you deserve better, or not? If you do, then you start acting like it and stop accepting what she's dishing out

I can't compel W to stop A

That's right you can't because its her choice either you like it or not.

I can completely starve her financially until she quits A and commits to M. Any ideas how this might play out? It's very controlling, but forces a stark choice (until she gets a job.)

Hmmm, aggressive thinking, I understand your pain...one day you will read this sentence and laugh about it, you can also hire a hitman and end with the affair... Will that help? No
Kill yourself will help? No
Accepting her decision will help? Terribly, because if you accept her choice one day your choices will be accepted as well, again you are not right or wrong, you are just not accepting her choice, that it's not going to help your M neither yourself.

I can file myself, but she knows that's a bluff. Unless, of course, it isn't (which I won't know myself until more time passes)

Again, you have many choices, If I might I will suggest you the easiest one at this point, follow Sandy rules for 60 days straight and after those 60 days let us know what your choice is.

Relationships are not science or math where you follow principles and formulas, imagine this, you want your W to be with you so you build this glass prison and throw her inside untill she realizes how bad she has behaved... 2 months later she kills herself and you definitely have lost the chance to be with her, then what you do?

Now you can let her have an A or as many as she wants and you can set boundaries to yourself not to get hurt more (sandy rules) then maybe and this is not guaranteed either maybe then she will come back because you are the only person alive accepting her choices.

Out there, many beautiful man, funny rich, sexual machines and other conditions exists but how many of those accept themselves and better than that accept other people just for the fact that they are human beings? Well not many, that's why relationships keep failing, what if you accept everything the way it is while setting boundaries for yourself? Hmmm then maybe your W will find you attractive again.

When we start a relationship we accept ourselves completely and our partner, only time deviates us from acceptance and then it's when people start to look for other choices, let her choose without judging and see what happens, only that way your chances will grow.

So ye21 appears to be following Sandi's rules - accept what is, don't pursue what you don't control, give W space, see if W comes back. Re-evaluate 60 days hence.

[sandi2]

Zew, I saw your request to come by your thread. I will need to catch up on your stitch. Then, I will respond. Just didn't want you thinking I was ignoring ya.

[zew]

Thanks, Sandi. I look forward to your comments.
Let me throw in this morning's episode. Fell way off the wagon again as far as the rules are concerned. Broke a goodly bunch.

Yesterday, W asked me for $180 to cover her T co-pays. We were outside, so I asked her to give me the details inside later, but I said I had just paid all the bills, and we had $500 to cover the next 2 weeks of whatever came up.

This morning, she said she thought about that, and that if she had visibility to bank acct, she would have known.

I told her that I had spent a lot of time figuring out how we got to where we were, and that I recognized my part in it, took responsibility for it, and was willing to change things, but that I would need some commitment from her that she really wanted to work on things. I said that now that she has job again (she quit hers when we got M / pregnant), that our whole dynamic was changing and we should re-evaluate a lot of things, including bank accounts / joint access.

I told her that I really admired her for starting her career again, that she was turning into "ambitious career woman" and that brought something out in her that I found very attractive. Told her that she was gaining back that ambitious career drive that she had when I met her and fell in L with her. Told her that although we had agreed to put her career on hold while we had kids, that I didn't think either of us fully realized what it cost us in terms of R.

At that point, she interjected that she didn't regret that decision, and that that wasn't our problem.

I said I understood that was how she felt, but that it may have affected how I treated her. She became a total dependent, and I became solely responsible for the whole family. We weren't equals any more, and that definitely affected the way I treated her.
Maybe she heard me.

I told her that I had been giving her as much space as I could for her to think through things, and that I have been thinking through my part and working on that.

Told her I was committed to working through things when/if she was ready, but that she would have to be at the point where I wasn't being blamed for everything.

Told her that I loved her, and that she had tested that with A with OM and that I was still her H standing by her. She said she didn't know how she felt, but wasn't sure if I could give her what she needed, since I never had.

We agreed that I have been a good provider, and that ML was always good.

But then, I went further. Told her she was free to make her own choices. I don't control her, and don't want to control her; the only way anyone could stay interesting to me would be to be their own person. Told her that I was willing to work with my W, but that I couldn't work with her in the role of OM's mistress. [There's that judgmental alpha boundary.]
She denied A angrily and walked away. Everything had been pretty calm up to that point.

I will not argue with her, but I will no longer stand and be lied to - there's a boundary there.

Left her with this:
I can't work with you until you commit to honesty. If you cannot be honest, then you have made your choice.

So there it is. Broke a lot of rules (every rule), but at the same time, I have a real problem with cake eating, to the point where I apparently cannot just sit and ride out A quietly. Not while she sleeps beside me.

In that I can't see where what I've done here advances the cause, I have to assume this is a setback of unknown magnitude. I was doing well until she pulled me in today.
And I know she has been noticing my 180's, and is at the stage where she just doesn't know whether to trust them yet.

She is going away Friday for 3 days to some session that is supposed to help her find herself. She has more fodder now.

What have I done?

[ye21]

I told her that I had spent a lot of time figuring out how we got to where we were
and I recognized my part in it, took responsibility for it, and was willing to change things, but that I would need some commitment from her that she really wanted to work on things.

So basically here you tell her to follow your beliefs that are just learned by the way your parents friends and education teached you while you grew up....

Told her that she was gaining back that ambitious career drive that she had when I met her and fell in L with her.

So you didnt love her all the years after that?.... Are you trying to show yourself as a guy who has changed based on what she does??

Told her that although we had agreed to put her career on hold while we had kids, that I didn't think either of us fully realized what it cost us in terms of R.

There are a lot of wives that they quit their career and just dedicate themselves to their families and themselves...are those wives damaging their R with their husbands??
Your W had a choice, then now she choosed something different and you are again showing yourself as a non accepter...

At that point, she interjected that she didn't regret that decision, and that that wasn't our problem.

There you are....why would she reject her choice? She is teaching you a lesson...accept yourself without judging.

I said I understood that was how she felt, but that it may have affected how I treated her.

Wow, now you blame her for choosing what she did choose... You are judging her decission, and who are you to judge? A person who knows everything? Even the future? We accept and thats all we can do... Nothing else, there is no good or bad, only choices.

She became a total dependent, and I became solely responsible for the whole family. We weren't equals any more, and that definitely affected the way I treated her.

So you werent happy in your R and instead of being honest with yourself you waited untill she doesnt want the R anymore to let her now.... She might be taking this as a sign of inestability and as a lie from your side...

I told her that I had been giving her as much space as I could for her to think through things, and that I have been thinking through my part and working on that.

Are you really? Who dictates how much is much space? Did she came to you and told you, honey thank you for giving me space I did needed exactly like that...
No she didnt told you that so obviously you are judging how much space should be given...again you are inviting her to follow your beliefs...not hers

Told her I was committed to working through things when/if she was ready, but that she would have to be at the point where I wasn't being blamed for everything.

Honey dont blame me.... Its her choice to blame you, all you can do its walk away when she blames you or listen to her and not act out of your feelings....those are two appropiate boundaries in this case. Words are words, only you choose how they affect you.

Told her that I loved her, and that she had tested that with A with OM and that I was still her H standing by her.

You are still there because of your own interest, to see if she is "failing" comes back to you and then you can freely tell her. I told you...you were wrong by having an affair...again having an affair my friend its not good or wrong, its only a choice, nothing else... The same way you choose oranges over apples in the supermarket... Or you get depress and do an scene when they dont have apples??

She said she didn't know how she felt, but wasn't sure if I could give her what she needed, since I never had.

Yep, she see something, the guy that ones accepted her completelly, now in the time that for whatever reason she is with other person its not accepting her, its judging her decission.... Untill you dont accept you are not gonna be able to see her side...


But then, I went further. Told her she was free to make her own choices. I don't control her, and don't want to control her; the only way anyone could stay interesting to me would be to be their own person. Told her that I was willing to work with my W, but that I couldn't work with her in the role of OM's mistress. [There's that judgmental alpha boundary.]

Hehehe I love you unconditionally but only when you are with me...otherways I dont find you attractive or interesting... Many on this forum said the same thing... My S now looks ugly and I cant underestand why I married them!! So happy to be divorced... She has the same eyes, the same her and the same body but for you its easier to judge her and not accept her...

She denied A angrily and walked away. Everything had been pretty calm up to that point.

Do you know why S denied affairs?? Because we judge them and they are affraid if they let their S know they will judge them and everybody around them... Do you whant to know the only people that sometimes knows about the S affair? Their friends or the family member who they see and feel that accept them no matter what without judging them...thats why only when we accept they are not longer with us, they come and tell us about the affair, only when they are sure we are not going to judge them...

I will not argue with her, but I will no longer stand and be lied to - there's a boundary there.
She is not liying, she is just not letting you know everything, thats not a boundarie, thats a judgamental way to tell her I will accept you only when you do the things the way I learned they are appropiate. A boundarie will be here not to to talk about the R with her because it hurts you... Boundaries at this point are for you not for her... She has no obligation to follow your boundaries my friend.


Left her with this:
I can't work with you until you commit to honesty. If you cannot be honest, then you have made your choice.

Well I told you before....conditional love in this case, where is that unconditional love you swore her when you took the vows?

So there it is. Broke a lot of rules (every rule), but at the same time, I have a real problem with cake eating, to the point where I apparently cannot just sit and ride out A quietly. Not while she sleeps beside me.

This is your choice, you will be strong or weak by choice not by magic pills.

In that I can't see where what I've done here advances the cause, I have to assume this is a setback of unknown magnitude. I was doing well until she pulled me in today.
And I know she has been noticing my 180's, and is at the stage where she just doesn't know whether to trust them yet.

Again there is no wrong or right, you are doing just fine, it was necessary for you to do this, now do a checkout and analize if that helped you or it didnt and learn from that for the next time, dont judge yourself just think: hmmm this helped me or now it hurts me more?

She is going away Friday for 3 days to some session that is supposed to help her find herself.

Great, the universe its working, did she do this thinghs in the past? Work on yourself and let the universe help her to work on herself, this experience will be so great for both of you....

What have I done?

You had tried something new for you, and you are in a learning procces, and the best thing its that you survived, keep working on yourself.

[zew]

I told her that I had spent a lot of time figuring out how we got to where we were
and I recognized my part in it, took responsibility for it, and was willing to change things, but that I would need some commitment from her that she really wanted to work on things.

So basically here you tell her to follow your beliefs that are just learned by the way your parents friends and education teached you while you grew up....

Ye, I did not suggest any system of beliefs or values, only that she was committed to work on things. I am open to differing perspectives and interpretations. You are mind reading judgement.

Told her that she was gaining back that ambitious career drive that she had when I met her and fell in L with her.

So you didn't love her all the years after that?.... Are you trying to show yourself as a guy who has changed based on what she does??

Again, not what I said. I didn't stop loving her. The dynamic changed, and I can see where problems arose because of that shift that should have been addressed.

Told her that although we had agreed to put her career on hold while we had kids, that I didn't think either of us fully realized what it cost us in terms of R.

There are a lot of wives that they quit their career and just dedicate themselves to their families and themselves...are those wives damaging their R with their husbands??
Your W had a choice, then now she choosed something different and you are again showing yourself as a non accepter...

At that point, she interjected that she didn't regret that decision, and that that wasn't our problem.

There you are....why would she reject her choice? She is teaching you a lesson...accept yourself without judging.

I don't see this as an acceptance issue. It has to do with new problems that arise in new situations, and failing to alter the response. In that respect, if any couple changes the family dynamic, are faced with unfamiliar issues and don't respond appropriately, then yes, they put their R at risk.

I said I understood that was how she felt, but that it may have affected how I treated her.

Wow, now you blame her for choosing what she did choose... You are judging her decission, and who are you to judge? A person who knows everything? Even the future? We accept and thats all we can do... Nothing else, there is no good or bad, only choices.

Where do you see blame here? She thinks the change in dynamic was not the cause of a problem. I can see where the change in dynamic may have affected my coping with the situation. That's all my problem. I'm neither judging nor blaming anyone by myself.

She became a total dependent, and I became solely responsible for the whole family. We weren't equals any more, and that definitely affected the way I treated her.

So you werent happy in your R and instead of being honest with yourself you waited untill she doesnt want the R anymore to let her now.... She might be taking this as a sign of inestability and as a lie from your side...

I was quite happy in my R. Obliviously so. It is only now in the post analysis, that I am trying to figure out what I contributed to its demise. If I had been more self conscious then, clearly I would have corrected and avoided all this. But I wasn't.

I told her that I had been giving her as much space as I could for her to think through things, and that I have been thinking through my part and working on that.

Are you really? Who dictates how much is much space? Did she came to you and told you, honey thank you for giving me space I did needed exactly like that...
No she didnt told you that so obviously you are judging how much space should be given...again you are inviting her to follow your beliefs...not hers

We cohabit. I'm giving her as much space as can be done in that situation. I made no claim that that was sufficient, nor did I impose any beliefs.

Told her I was committed to working through things when/if she was ready, but that she would have to be at the point where I wasn't being blamed for everything.

Honey dont blame me.... Its her choice to blame you, all you can do its walk away when she blames you or listen to her and not act out of your feelings....those are two appropiate boundaries in this case. Words are words, only you choose how they affect you.

My point here is that right now, she deems me 100% responsible for everything that has happened. While I can validate that now, I believe that progress will only come once she is in a position to accept a role in this. I am by no means saying "Don't blame me for anything."

Told her that I loved her, and that she had tested that with A with OM and that I was still her H standing by her.

You are still there because of your own interest, to see if she is "failing" comes back to you and then you can freely tell her. I told you...you were wrong by having an affair...again having an affair my friend its not good or wrong, its only a choice, nothing else... The same way you choose oranges over apples in the supermarket... Or you get depress and do an scene when they dont have apples??

In fact, I have no interest in saying "I told you so" There is nothing to be gained in blame. She has had a fear in the past of me leaving her. I want her to know that I am not running away, I am standing through this. This is not a dealbreaker. I am big into forgiveness. I would be over the affair tomorrow if she would go NC. Trust would be another issue. And I cannot agree with you on the "having an affair is not good or wrong". It is wrong. period. It is the worst thing you can do to a spouse. Can I get past it? Absolutely. Can I forgive? Yes I can, in fact I must. Do I want to blame her and hold it over her? No, that's counterproductive.

But then, I went further. Told her she was free to make her own choices. I don't control her, and don't want to control her; the only way anyone could stay interesting to me would be to be their own person. Told her that I was willing to work with my W, but that I couldn't work with her in the role of OM's mistress. [There's that judgmental alpha boundary.]

Hehehe I love you unconditionally but only when you are with me...otherways I dont find you attractive or interesting... Many on this forum said the same thing... My S now looks ugly and I cant underestand why I married them!! So happy to be divorced... She has the same eyes, the same her and the same body but for you its easier to judge her and not accept her...

You mention unconditional love. That is thought provoking. I love her enough to stand by her through A and work for my M and family. Would I accept an open marriage in the name of unconditional love? No, I think I'd rather move on. Haven't crossed that bridge yet, though.
Does that make me guilty of not loving her unconditionally? Sounds like you think so.

She denied A angrily and walked away. Everything had been pretty calm up to that point.

Do you know why S denied affairs?? Because we judge them and they are affraid if they let their S know they will judge them and everybody around them... Do you whant to know the only people that sometimes knows about the S affair? Their friends or the family member who they see and feel that accept them no matter what without judging them...thats why only when we accept they are not longer with us, they come and tell us about the affair, only when they are sure we are not going to judge them...

I think you are absolutely correct.
In my case, I do not want to judge or blame. That goes nowhere. I just know that no progress can occur until A is over. I believe W has a real dilemma here. She knows that I know, but she cannot admit it, perhaps because she feels that would open her up to judgment. I honestly don't know how to deal with the fact that she may never admit the A. I can't see how we could ever restore trust. I don't know if you can do that without contrition. In fact, I am only looking for finality to the A; I really don't need the admission. I must think more on this.

I will not argue with her, but I will no longer stand and be lied to - there's a boundary there.

She is not liying, she is just not letting you know everything, thats not a boundarie, thats a judgamental way to tell her I will accept you only when you do the things the way I learned they are appropiate. A boundarie will be here not to to talk about the R with her because it hurts you... Boundaries at this point are for you not for her... She has no obligation to follow your boundaries my friend.

Well no, she's lying. And as I already said, an ended A is something I've come to grips with. Lying about an ongoing A is lying. Lying is an absolute, it's not just my quirky value system. And it's lying to me now. It's a current act. I can forgive any past transgression, if there is an attempt not to repeat it. Now could I somehow make an exception for this, knowing W can't come to terms with admitting A? Beats me.
And I agree, she has no obligation to respect my boundaries. They are in place by me for me. But can we proceed while she keeps ramming them? Probably not. Is that just a matter of time? Maybe.

Left her with this:
I can't work with you until you commit to honesty. If you cannot be honest, then you have made your choice.

Well I told you before....conditional love in this case, where is that unconditional love you swore her when you took the vows?

I don't see how you could deal with someone dealing in bad faith. I think that unconditional love can make you LRT patiently for a long time for W to get to a point of being willing to deal in good faith. But I don't think you go forever in an open M, dealing in bad faith, in the name of unconditional love. You have to be true to some minimal common value system.

So there it is. Broke a lot of rules (every rule), but at the same time, I have a real problem with cake eating, to the point where I apparently cannot just sit and ride out A quietly. Not while she sleeps beside me.

This is your choice, you will be strong or weak by choice not by magic pills.

In that I can't see where what I've done here advances the cause, I have to assume this is a setback of unknown magnitude. I was doing well until she pulled me in today.
And I know she has been noticing my 180's, and is at the stage where she just doesn't know whether to trust them yet.

Again there is no wrong or right, you are doing just fine, it was necessary for you to do this, now do a checkout and analize if that helped you or it didnt and learn from that for the next time, dont judge yourself just think: hmmm this helped me or now it hurts me more?

She is going away Friday for 3 days to some session that is supposed to help her find herself.

Great, the universe its working, did she do this thinghs in the past? Work on yourself and let the universe help her to work on herself, this experience will be so great for both of you....

What have I done?

You had tried something new for you, and you are in a learning procces, and the best thing its that you survived, keep working on yourself.

Can't disagree with any of this.

So Ye, we disagree on some things. I have read many of your posts and you are very consistent. You seem to be ultra passive - accept everything. I hold a few things to be immutable. But as you said, I am still learning. Thanks for posting.

[sandi2]

Sandi seems to be advising against Sandi's rules, which is why I ask for clarification of the (non-) subtleties of boundaries in conjunction with LRT.

Could you explain how I have advised against Sandi's rules? I may have not made myself clear in something I was trying to explain, but I don't remember contradicting any of the "rules".

[LFC1170]

I don't understand the comparison of choosing to have an affair to choosing apples over oranges. If you had a committed relationship with oranges you would not choose apples. What happened to the vows? do they stand for only one or both?

I learned that loving "unconditionally" is unhealthy if your partner doesn't. The person that loves unconditionally is more liable to be taken advantage of and would be able to be hurt easier than the one who doesn't.

[zew]

I think it based on this interaction in Tarheel's thread, in which you seemed to be suggesting a more aggressive approach to a cake eating W. The DR approach is pretty passive, basically you wait out the A, because you are in essentially a position of little to no leverage. So I wanted to know how you really could reasonably act on your decision that you deserved more and weren't going to take crap, besides the nuclear option.

I'm sure I've misunderstood either the comment or how one would do that. That was why I was seeking clarification.

But then what, Sandi? Unless you plan to file, how does your decision manifest itself?

Well, do you believe you deserve better, or not? If you do, then you start acting like it and stop accepting what she's dishing out.

Stop being afraid and remember that you are a man and that's basically why she fell in love with you. We women want our men to be decisive and stop acting like they've been castrated. We hate.....hate.....hate passive males. We will eat them alive! B/c we know we can!

You better be ready to do whatever is necessary to be the man of your own home, or accept an open M. That's what it boils down to.

[zew]

I've been beating myself up over the conversation I had with W yesterday. I broke every rule. I need a giant helping of STFU and have to focus on LRT again and moving myself forward.

W threw out a little zinger last night - "Well, if you think we can afford it, the town wants $10 to renew the dog tag." I suppressed a laugh.

She has accused me of saying things like that, and now she is the master of them. I have tried hard to be aware of what I say to avoid things like that now, which makes me all the more aware of when she serves them up to me.

I know that she takes this whole access/visibility to finances as very controlling, and with our R in the state it's in now, it is controlling. I give her visibility to expenses, which she says isn't enough. I can't see giving her joint access at this point when she has no commitment.

And she has a couple of cards that I never knew about that she's pegged out and stopped making payments on. She's been taken to court before, (I found out much later) and the collectors are about to take her there again. I still have trouble understanding why she chose going to court instead of coming to me.
Was I that unapproachable?
Was she that embarrassed or afraid that I would be disappointed?
I guess I have always set the bar high, maybe she was afraid I couldn't accept any less?

I really wish her nature hadn't been to internalize things like that. There's some insecurity there.
I have to learn how to make people feel that I can accept less than perfection. [upside: work to improve me]

And while it's not my job to hold her responsible for her financial behavior, I no longer have the urge to rescue her. I offered when I found out in the fall to sit down and come up with a plan, and she has never taken me up on it.
I'm sure this comes across as very paternalistic. Is it wrong for me to think that I keep getting forced into that role? I guess I enabled it by not involving her in finance from day 1.

So the finance thing is now a catch 22. In a good R, both parties should have full access. Once R goes south, and you learn about hidden cards, that's a tough thing to 180, and now I'm controlling. And she recognizes now that her financial history is what's preventing her from walking out the door right now.

What a mess. In my next life, I'll do this differently.

[ye21]

I really wish her nature hadn't been to internalize things like that. There's some insecurity there.
I have to learn how to make people feel that I can accept less than perfection. [upside: work to improve me]

You are judging her right there... And you ask yourself why she didnt came to ask for help with her financial issues?

I dont think she will come to you asking for help in that matter because she doesnt feel safe sharing that with you... She can see your standars in a daily basis.... When we are in a relationship sometimes we talk about friends or other people who has money problems while we are with our partner. For example:
Wow Mike just called me and told me he has to go to court because of his student loans... I cant believe he was so irresponsable of not paying that back..
You say all that and your W its close to you listening to this... She is LISTENING so she underestand that those are your standards.... Will she come with you once she has the same problem? Nop
But if she hears you helping him or not judging him for that, its very logical that she will ask you in the future for advice in that concern.
So we basically are projecting via words to others who we really are and believe at that point....
Then dont complain if she doesnt consult you when she has that problem... Your standars are high and she cant feel safe around that, just look at how many times that happened when you were growing up with your parents, you didnt share everything with them because you didnt feel safe about sharing certain things.