How do you work on this fear? Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down.
What is left for you to fear from her? You have already died tens of thousands times over again out of fear and dread of how she may react to you. Aren't you putting yourself through the experience every time you feel that fear of her?
I'm sure it won't sound very civilized to you, but I've learned when I no longer respect a person b/c of how they treat me, then I stop giving them permission. This comes easily when I really dislike a person enough that I don't feel that I have to guard my words and/or behavior toward them. I've also learned that once I've allowed some person to put me down for an indefinite period of time, then it seems much harder to confront and put an end to it. I think perhaps this may be a little of your problem. It's just so hard to imagine having to live with another human being who does that to you.
But again, we have been around and around this mountain with you. If you know you will divorce her, then why should it matter what she thinks of you? Why tolerate her, or worse...why fear her? So she gives you a stern look! Know how to stare back? Roll your eyes, laugh at her, shake your head and walk off, but don't just curl up in a ball and wish she would stop being so mean. She's acts mean to you simply b/c she can.
She doesn't wish to discuss facts, philosophy, current events, or anything else with you. That is how much she has removed herself emotionally out of the MR and is trying to cut you out of her life altogether. For a woman who you think is so intelligent, she seems to be going to extremes to "show" you how much she wants out of the M. Even to the point of acting very ridiculous for a grown woman. And this is what you fear? Every time you feel afraid, stop and remember this is the adult who would sing Happy Birthday but leave your name out of the song! It should make you either laugh or get angry, but never fear her.
Luke, I really believe if you face down the fear of her, those other areas of your life won't be near as lacking as you may see them now. You have allowed her bad treatment of you to effect your lack of friends, social life, etc.
We can just keep saying this for so long, and then what? People have stuck with you, trying to truly give you help, more than any other member I recall. So that should tell you that you don't turn everyone completely off (like your W wants you to think). There really are some folks who give a care. If you were impossible, I think we would have given up way back there.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
"Having a fashion sense (though I philosophically disagree with this). "
Why? Would you want to go out with a woman who dresses like a slob or dresses outrageously? If not, then why would a woman want to go with a guy who doesn't care about his appearance?
"How do you work on this fear?"
By not allowing yourself to be afraid. You allow it every time.
"Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down."
To be honest it's NOT EVERY time. You've already conditioned yourself to hear anything that she says as critical of you. It's already been pointed out in your recent interactions with her.
"My background is rational, factual, Teutonic. Why can't our interchanges be factual?"
Because no one wants to live like that. We're humans. Not robots.
"I answer her put downs fairly, rationally, but it doesn't feel like enough: the "if you hit me, I'll hit you back (verbally!)", isn't there, but what stupid game is that?"
How many times do we have to tell you that the reason why she does that is to actually get you to show some kind of emotion. When you talk to her in a factual tone it sounds like you're a parent talking down to her and not a passionate person.
"Why not be rational?"
Seriously? Have you learned nothing in 9 years?
"d is home today, and needed help with math. Our interchanges are much more give and take and good. I pointed out an unreasonable expectation on her part. She told me about a dream, with something important written in a purple sky, which she absolutely had to photograph, so she stopped the train. I really loved her in that moment."
Why? According to you, things need to be rational. Your D being filled with emotion from seeing the sky enough to stop a train to photograph, shows her passion. She gets that from your W.
It's that PASSION that your W has been missing from YOU.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
All - you have been most generous with your time and very patient, and I thank you. I think that an appropriate response, honoring your efforts, would be to finally do what you recommend and then get back to you (rather than more whining and questioning verbiage on my part).
Back later - Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
MrBond is right! Luke your wife needs to see passion from you. If for no other reason that to respect you as a coparent!
Women are emotionl beings and require passionate people around them to stay happy. With two women in the house with you, I think that contrast between how they are and how you are is obvious to both of them.
You can do this. You have passion for life. Its in you. Let it out.
Me, H-34 now 38 W-32 now 35 T-13 now 18 years M-6 now 9 Daughter 3 years now 7 Bomb 11/27/12 - OM 1 year in house separation Reconciliation 12/2013. Healed now 2017
Women are not monolithic. Luke needs to show passion for Luke, not for his W. Just my two cents.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
A big test tomorrow - I am giving my son and I a (unannounced, even though she asked if I had any big gifts for him) trip to Italy, just the two of us, to see the sun and the sights. Is this okay? Is it going to make her think she cannot trust me?
Also, I will give daughter a trip to London or Oxford in February. I assume it is okay to not have requested permission from W for two such large ticket items?
W is nicer, talking to me again, since about a week. We had a large 30+ people Christmas party on Saturday, and have another, smaller (8 people) one tomorrow, with our best friends here.
A Peaceful Christmas to all - evening is settling on the land here - Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
though I agree with Gabby that there is nothing "Wrong" with your gift, why'd you lie about it when your w asked you specifically if you were giving son a big gift?
What were you afraid of? That she'd say no? She won't "let you" go there? How crazy is that? And tell me why you did NOT invite your d on this trip so she could be with her brother AND you...and a friend?
WHAT FEAR STOPPED YOU?
As for having less social awkwardness, I have to assume you think you are awkward when you are around your w or maybe there's a cultural thing you play into with the MIT backstory.
But I have met you and I am a "Meyers Brigg" tested, Extreme Extrovert...and I can say - you are just fine socially.
I mean, do you hide when you are in crowds? I met you one on one, and know you attended a workshop we both got a LOT out of, and they all said the same thing. We know you, and
YOU ARE FINE...you don't need an "awkward nerd" from MIT to make you feel alright. You just need an accepting woman who "gets" you. She does not need to be an MIT "nerd".
Gosh...sigh
Other than an abused wife I once knew, you're one of those rare spouses I just can't wait to see free.
Sure, I wish your w had awakened, but it's been a DECADE of her being in an emotional "coma" with you;
and I don't see an awakening, or enough hope for one, for you to hang onto....certainly not now,
when YOU HAVE AWAKENED to what has been missing in your life...YOU ARE AWAKE, SO DON'T GO BACK TO SLEEP
You want to have a life of intimacy and meaningful connections, a life you crave, deserve and relationships you already HAVE with some people... but your marriage is hurting your parenting role, your r with your kids, and your view of yourself. Staying in THIS marriage, as it is, is bad news. It's what I would fear the MOST for you, Not divorce...
As for your list of goals, I like the goals for the most part. But I think some of them are based on false and negative views of yourself, to an extent.
I also think being more specific about HOW you will achieve the goals you do want to keep, will help you a lot.
So HOW will you get more passion in your life? Will you take up a hobby or 4? What types? My t once said I needed more passion in my life that would not threaten my m, and he suggested I continue doing theater. He was SO right. it channelled a lot of passion and socializing I needed that my h could not participate in due to his work schedule, it helped with my lonely times and I kept my marriage vows.
You can fine passion in your life, with hobbies and interests and or a different job
(though your job sounds interesting & well paying, I can see that working on your own so much would be hard to do. Probably impossible for ME.
Is there a way to stay in the field but change the work dynamic/environment?
Okay back to the trips and holidays...despite your fear of telling your w and then hiding it from her...it's done and she has ruined trips before. So you have some basis for wondering if the other shoe was going to drop I suppose. Be HAPPY and not fearful & NOT timid, about the trips planned. NO apologies!
It's a nice GIFT FROM YOU to your kids...and if your wife says anthing, SO WHAT?
Shake it off...literally, you may have to shake your head and ask about her amnesia. Didn't She bolt away from you at the last minute, from an all expenses paid UP FRONT trip to Poland, last year? A trip she knew about all along and cancelled HER share and daughters...b/c she didn't feel like it?
A trip she KNEW about ahead of time and let you pay for, only to cancel at the last minute AND she kept your d with her too, right?
That's so gross...if you feel pressured to "explain MORE", then remind her of how expensive that inexcusably rude behavior was and it hurt YOUR D too, not just the wife...
it's not all about her and keeping her happy. And if it were, too bad b/c it's not possible to keep YOUR wife happy. She's not happily married and she has chosen not to be.
As for your clothes, I thought you were referring to yourself. But truth be told, I don't recall anything off about what you were wearing, but, leaving that aside....just dress to show your self respect & sense of expression.
A man of some means and education, does not dress like Jay Z or a rapper (unless he's in the industry and lives in Hollywood or New York, and even then, they CAN look snappy). Your clothes ought to be clean and fit you well...
I think the superficiality (which I assume is the philisophical objection you have) comes only when you are wearing designer clothes BECAUSE they are "designer" clothes not b/c they are functional or well made. Wear well made clothes that feel comfortable and flatter you. That's just good self care and grooming.
BTW, as you may recall, I have a broken leg and can't bear weight on my leg for sometime. I use a "walker" and was told that the hospital store sold "designer purses FOR walkers"...I didn't ask who the designer was but saw two types. One is beige canvas, the other is floral canvas, with velcro you can attach to the walker so it's slightly hard for a thief to steal.
Hmmm tough call. I bet the beige canvas velcro will clash with fewer items so that's the "designer" I chose...
Luke,
Take up hobbies and find one that someday you can share with another person. You remind me of a dentist friend we have had for years. Like you he's very bright and THINKS he is a nerd...
He imagines himself terribly awkward socially but manages to mingle with most people just fine. He's NOT "cool" but that simply isn't important to anyone I know, over 30. I have "cool friends", but they are sometimes hard to get close to.
Anyhow, our dentist friend is also an astronomy lover. He found some folks online who are into it and they formed the local astronomy club, and he is president of the astronomy club.
(He LOVES astronomy so much my d wanted a telescope 3 years ago, b/c he inspired her.)
Then he purchased some land near Shaver Lake (not too far from Yosemite, in a stunning area with very little light pollution) and he put giant telescopes there. They are enclosed in small "cabins". He rents them out to universities all across the world, who control them remotely. It's very cool and he makes money doing what he loves (and has one scope of his own of course).
See, He followed his bliss, even while working at his dentist job, which he likes plenty well enough (and it sure pays the bills).
He has met many MANY men and some women, who share his passion.
Turns out, One man in the club had a sister, (a talented, smart actress of all things) & she loves astronomy too. She also loves our dentist friend b/c of his passion for astronomy and his kindness, his wit and his intellect and b/c he is SO different than the men she ordinarily meets... so they began dating and are now married....and the rest is history...
He did not "need" another astronomer (or dentist) as a partner.
He simply needed a woman who could love him as he is. He deserves that.
So do you.
So go show your kids that they are fascinating to you, and that you are fascinated by many things in the world. The way to be interesting to people is to be interestED...
like Dale Carnegie says, "ask people about themselves and they'll describe you as a 'great conversationalist.'"
It might sound superficial or manipulative but it's just a tool that helps you get to know someone better and faster. Ask...listen...follow up. Be interseted in them. Make yourself FIND them interesting. Like you probably did with both of your children when they were born. Weren't they interesting to you?
I know I was pleasantly surprised by how cool I found MY kids...
and Luke, you have a
((( Merry Christmas )))
Originally Posted By: LuckyLuke
A big test tomorrow - I am giving my son and I a (unannounced, even though she asked if I had any big gifts for him) trip to Italy, just the two of us, to see the sun and the sights. Is this okay? Is it going to make her think she cannot trust me?
Also, I will give daughter a trip to London or Oxford in February. I assume it is okay to not have requested permission from W for two such large ticket items?
W is nicer, talking to me again, since about a week. We had a large 30+ people Christmas party on Saturday, and have another, smaller (8 people) one tomorrow, with our best friends here.
A Peaceful Christmas to all - evening is settling on the land here - Luke
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25yearmic, you are amazing.. Simply the Santa gift I have been looking all this season. You have it all wrapped , the gift of life and the rapture and the music of passion and the courage and the will to see the unknow and undiscovered. I am glad to have read your post. I am always motivated by your point of view, a true north star and beacon for all warriors . I meet Luke personally, he is beta dominant male, he is afraid to lose and fears the unknown. He is risk averse and wants to play life safe all the time, as an intellectual he wants estimations and predictions that give his safe bets and wants a good result. He can compromise to 9 yrs even if he looses his head. We know there are theories of a good life but one has to live a good life on principle, respect ,love, courage, fairness, caring for husband and nonviolenance and purpose driven, failure, challenge, passion, legacy, balance in temperament. Many more things play and family and your women helps to nurture these qualities.. He is also exhibiting beta dominance. You are a MAN, so be one get some alpha traits out in action. Get a nice women in your life, detach from this sucker in your life , even if your attched to her emotionally. You are the best judge of your life, you are a valuble soul and you have kids who love you. you call the shots for your life , Dont allow people to walk all over you , don't be scared to say no, have self respect you loose it you don't exist..you just dead man waking ....period .... Have a Merry Christmas and happy new year all...
M - 39W- 38 M - 4 yr,Date-4 mths Son - 2 yr day care S - 9/12 Divorced- 10/10/13 Visits with son other week Working on myself & son,co-parent,change,assertive,alpha/beta, entrepeurneur,care,heal,centered
We are all on our own journeys here, and I am on mine.
I agree that Luke seems to want all bases covered before moving in any direction and the past ten years have seen little movement on his end, til recently.
And even now Luke, you SOUND as if your w's words and responses are where you invest your self esteem, even while recognizing, cognitively, that it should not and must not b/c she is Not a giver of positives for you.
My real advice is this observation which I hope you and (we) all take to heart and contemplate on this day, the first day of the New Year. Which is to say... LIFE IS SHORT...
Do what it takes to be happy and stop beating your head against the same brick wall, going down cheese less tunnels.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
