Newcomer's brief summary

[doubledown]

Thanks lovenomatterwhat!

You really made me feel good today. Here I am thinking my life is a total mess and doomed and then you come along and share that with me. Thank you. I never thought mystory would be inspiring, but I'm glad you found some value in it. I'm sorry you're here, but glad to hear your words.

Each day is different, isn't it? Something can distract you and take your mind away just for a few seconds or even a minute. Man, that feels good! I hope to find more of those moments along the way.

I'm beginning to agree with you about not revealing my knowledge of W's A. What truely good circumstance can come from it? The tough part is that we supposedly know these people better than anyone else, yet, have no idea how they'll respond to a charge of "I know you're having an A"!

The mind is amazing that way, a barrier of emotion & hormones that prevent truely intelligent people from seeing what's right in front of them...or feeling it. A true fog. And I suppose only they can find their way clear of it.

Do you mind sharing your story with me? How are you managing?

[Cadet]

I thought I read that the LRT was an option after the affair was revealed and the WAS refused to end it.

Yes MWD does advise LRT, however that is not exposure.

I would say that you biggest weapon is detachment and moving forward with you life.

Stop pursuing and start being the best DAD that you can be.

Yes boundaries are important.

Leaving a marriage is one thing, but leaving for another person that you are sexualy involved with while your married and have two small children at home is going to put the pressure on her because she'll have to think about how all the people we know, including family, will react.

As far as pressuring her I think that is not going to work.
Or may just add fuel to the fire and prolong the affair fantasy.

Shining a light on the affair and making it real where the OM must provide for all of her needs has a better chance of disrupting the affair.

At least that is my understanding of affair busting.
Most affairs end, the question is when and how long.

[lionhrt]

Hi DD,

"And I do need to work on getting myself in a better place and build my strength(emotionally)"

Exactly this...you are no use as a H or father whilst your emotions are running wild. I am not saying don't switch them off, but learn to know your phases and how to ride them out.

"I think what W is getting from OM is attention, complements, he's 12 years younger, they share a strong work ethic. W told OM that they share the desire to set goals and work hard to attain them, if they hit an obstacle, they find a way to overcome it. That is not not my strong suit!

Her LL is words of affirmation?. You already knew W was an achiever through her 6 figure salary. However, when you say she likes to set goals and attain them which is not your strong suit, what do you mean by this? i.e. is she the main provider and leader in the household? If so you may have some work to do here on your alpha side.

"I'm sure he pursued her."

Don't worry about that.

"How do I attempt to meet her emotional and other needs at this point? Do I just stay upbeat, PMA, GAL and have fun with the kids?"

This is difficult at the moment. Whilst fogged in an A fantasy she might not be receptive to your attempts to fulfil her emotional needs. Remember you are in for a long haul. IMO the A will end based on your description of OM. Then if you do the work on you she will look and maybe take an interest. IMO GAL, be the best man you can be. One of Sandi's rules is that it should be like you have an awakening. Have you?

I have a mental picture of the man I want to be. I am a good way there but still work to do. Some use characters (hence Mr Bond one of the vets on here) to model aspects of themselves on. Really think about this because it is who you want to be and not who you think your W wants you to be.

Use the boards for support and remember what Cadet said re advice. Ultimately that is all it is, you will get good and bad advice here but overall will get a lot of support. The best way I have found is to take all the advice and then weigh it up in my own time and make my decision.

Again, don't fall into a trap of keep changing course based on what someone posts....this will be confusing to W and will not help your sitch.

Remember to keep posting regularly.

All the best

[doubledown]

So by "shining a light" on the affair, you mean detaching and leaving her with only her affair to contend with? Thus, she realizes that it's all up to her and OM to make their own happiness, leaving her without any other options.

Then she may begin to see that I'm happy enjoying my life with the kids and doing other things and this may intrigue her to investigate what she 's leaving behind. Am I on the right track here?

[doubledown]

Hi rkyfat73,

"Her LL is words of affirmation?. You already knew W was an achiever through her 6 figure salary. However, when you say she likes to set goals and attain them which is not your strong suit, what do you mean by this? i.e. is she the main provider and leader in the household? If so you may have some work to do here on your alpha side."

What I meant by this is not my strong suit, is that I struggle with self-esteem, self confidence and how I measure up to others. I compensate for this by challenging everything, criticising, judging and controlling. In addition, I've never been very goal oriented. I seem to be a minimum man or the easy way is best. Work smart, not hard. But I think my wife is impressed by those who set a goal and work their tail off, overccoming obstacles until they achieve.

She was the main provider for the first 6 years of our marriage, until she lost her career. As for her being the leader, I don't know. She is a visionary, always coming up with ideas and suggestions. For example, she would frequently come up with improvement projects around our house. Then I was the one to do most of the work and it challenged me.

My first response to most of her ideas was: "That's too hard". "I can't do that". "How can I do that"? Most times, I would get through the project and it would look great! She would be impressed, but I continued to challenge her suggestions. She would plead with me, "can't you just say, OK!? Just once?"

I wouldn't say I have a picture of the man I want to be yet. I do know that I want to approach situations and people differently.

I want to work on patience, confidence, being consciencious, being non-judgemental or critical and accept others for who they are. That is my focus. I need to meet more people. I've been tucked away from society for a while, dealing with our situation where she worked all the time and I was home with the kids evenings and every weekend for the past 2 years.

Lots of work to do. Thanks again and I'll keep posting.

[fade]

Hi doubledown,

I read your thread and I really commend you for keeping things together with yourself and your kids. Most people are not capable of doing this.

First of all, I am coming from this from the opposite side as a marriage councilor. We often disagree, but I think I am well qualified to at least offer a perspective of what doesnt work! I really, really disagree with not or delaying your confrontation.

Basically, while I understand the idea of delaying confrontation until you think you may have had a chance to implement the 180, fix major relationship issues, or become more detached, personally I dont buy it for a second. Without a confrontation, you are just living in limbo where none of these things are likely to ever be accomplished. Will your wife really notice or care if you become slightly better husband material over the next couple of months? I doubt it. The longer this goes on the more she will love OM and hate you. You could be absolutely perfect in every way, and this process will still play out because she is engaged in instinct driven behavior of rationalizing away any evidence contrary to her goal of maximizing phenylethylamine stimulation. I promise you that she is not thinking beyond her addictive butterfly feelings of a new, secret relationship.

In my experience dealing with divorce on a daily basis, I have never, ever seen an emotionally-charged affair end without some sort of outside pressure. People cite statistics that affairs burn out and dont last - sure they dont last when things hit the fan but if they remain secret, protected, and enabled, there is no reason they wont continue. The only thing I have ever seen end an affair is consequences, and your wife has not faced any.

The longer you allow your wife to live in la la land with her affair fantasy, the more it becomes her reality. Women are hypergamous by nature, there is literally a brain chemical process that causes them to emotionally detach from their partner if they find a new one. Right now you are protecting her secret, you are even thinking about giving her space to conduct her affair so she wont resent you. What you are doing is making sure there are no consequences to her affair, while consequences are the only thing that will end her affair. The longer you wait to take action, the more detached she will be from you, the more attached to the OM she will be, and the harder it will be for you to take action. You will start rationalizing excuses, you will become increasingly afraid to take action, you will become accustomed to an increasingly toxic and abusing behavior from her. For example, why on earth would you wait just because she is changing jobs? Why are you making it easier on her at the expense of you. You will be stuck in limbo where your wife will increasingly disrespect you and if you sit there and take it, she will just dish it out more.

One final thing, and this is really just my opinion, but it seems like women in particular tie love to respect. The real way to kill love and attraction is not making her angry, resentful, or mad, its by making her lose respect for you. She is leaving to spend the day with another man, to have sex with him, and you say nothing. You actually make it easier for her by being there to watch the kids, and send her off with a smile. No wonder she and her OM spend their time denigrating and insulting you. Imagine what she would think of you if she found out that you did this while you knew what she was up to.

[too trusting]

DD, I agree with Cadet and most of the other responders here. I do NOT agree with "fade" who is recommending to confront your wife. it is possible that confronting her might be effective at a later time - but now is NOT that time.

MWD says that most affairs wither away on their own. right now your wife is intoxicated with her fantasy affair, and cannot see OM for the loser that he really is. and unfortunately she won't believe you if you try to tell her that. she has to find out on her own.

You mentioned that she may be telling him things that are not necessarily her true intention?

I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that what they are telling each other is a fantasy, wishful thinking, no connection to the real world (in which he is uneducated and married, and living with another girlfriend besides her).

the intoxicating thing about affairs is that they are all fun and fantasy. whereas real life has responsibilities. it's not fun. so that, and not any magical quality of OM, is what attracts her. she isn't really in love with OM, she is intoxicated with the fantasy of the affair.

but eventually something will happen to open her eyes. maybe when she realizes that he is not going to leave his other girlfriend so she can move in with him. or, when she sees that what she has at home is a lot better than OM.

I must admit, it's been embarrassing to read some of their text/email exchanges. They're very childish exchanges, blindly making all encompassing statements about "forever" and how much love they have for each other, when in reality, it's been a relatively short time to be making end-all statements like that.

What do you make of it?

they're in fantasy land.

I'm hearing that confronting her outright with the specifc knowledge is aggressive and controlling, perpetuating any opinions she may have of me.

no, the controlling behavior is the demands that you must place on her (that you listed earlier) once she knows that you know. if she knows that you know, and you don't make those demands (e.g. to stop seeing OM) then you look like a wimp. but if you do make those demands, you come across as "controlling" and then she will run to OM who makes no demands on her. you see what I mean? once you've confronted her, you lose either way.

but right now, she doesn't know that you know, and you can pretend that you don't know (because you haven't confronted her yet). so you can use that time to your advantage. you can build yourself up as a "nice guy", a good husband, a good father - the guy she would be a fool to leave. and then if/when you confront her, she would know what she stands to lose. and she might come to her senses on her own (or OM might leave her for another girlfriend) and you might not need to confront her at all. so use your time wisely.

W told OM that they share the desire to set goals and work hard to attain them, if they hit an obstacle, they find a way to overcome it. That is not not my strong suit!

is this something that you would want to be your strong suit? or you just think it is what your wife wants?

if it is not a quality that is important to you, what other good qualities do you have that you can develop? what bad habits do you have that you can overcome?

what originally attracted her to you?

what things were you doing when things were going well between you?

you want to make yourself the best man you can be - the guy she would be a fool to leave.

So by "shining a light" on the affair, you mean detaching and leaving her with only her affair to contend with? Thus, she realizes that it's all up to her and OM to make their own happiness, leaving her without any other options.

Then she may begin to see that I'm happy enjoying my life with the kids and doing other things and this may intrigue her to investigate what she 's leaving behind. Am I on the right track here?

I think that's a good idea.

[too trusting]

DD, earlier you wrote:

Here are some of my short term goals:

and you requested my response, so I'll take them one by one.

- want her to end affair by December 25, 2013

that one isn't under your control. scratch it for now.

- have her initiate conversations with me, calls, texts.

you might be able to gradually do this. here's how: remember that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

so if she happens to call you or send you a text, respond positively afterwards. say to her in the evening, "you know, it was really nice to hear from you today. I was thinking about you too." when she happens to do something right and you compliment her about it - it increases the likelihood that she will do it again. (this works with kids too btw.)

if she doesn't do it on her own initiative, you can suggest it. like "you know, I'd be really happy if you would call or send a text in the middle of the day, just to let me know how things are going for you." and then if she does - compliment her on it afterwards. see if this method will encourage her to do it without you telling her.

but whatever you do, don't demand. you can request nicely, but if she doesn't do it after a few requests, let it go for now.

- have her approach me and want to be around me

think of what can you do that will make her want to be around you? and then do it. this should be part of your general "making yourself the best man you can be" (not for her but for yourself.)

- see me as I make improvements, notcie that I'm a kind, loving, patient father to our boys and become engaged with us.

keep doing those things and eventually she will notice. she can't help noticing. keep up the good work and be patient.

- consistently agree with her feelings and not question them

that's something you can work on. but don't do it in a wimpy way. validate her feelings, let her know you agree with her when that is true, but avoid criticism when you don't agree. you don't have to pretend to agree if you think she's wrong, but you can say it in a diplomatic way, like "I think differently, but I understand your reasons for feeling that way." (and then don't continue to argue about it.)

- start spending time together; go out, dinner, movie, something!

hmm, how did that work before you were married? oh, I know! you asked her for a date!

why don't you suggest going out to a restaurant, just the two of you? get a babysitter for the kids. don't insist if she says she doesn't feel like going out, but think of ways to tempt her to do it. maybe a special restaurant or movie. and of course don't bring up the suggestion at the last minute, ask her a few days ahead of time.

and when you are out together, no discussing any everyday problems or household matters. it's a fun evening!!!

then a week or two later, suggest doing it again "because last time was so much fun". try to aim for a weekly or biweekly "date night".

- have her want to come home earlier and want to be here with me and be happy while at home.

well, that depends on you, fella. become the best man you can be - the one she enjoys being with.

good luck!

[doubledown]

Hi Fade,

thanks for all the feedback and for the compliment as well. It's tough, but considering the circumstances, I prefer to keep my cool at this point.

You make some interesting points in justifying a confrontation. I'm really trying to gather as many perspectives as possible and try to gain a little insight from each and every one.

I realize that I probably only have one solid chance at addressing this situation head-on, so I'm taking it slow and really trying to learn from other's experience along the way.

I'm not a proponent of divorce and never have been, so I'm already going against the grain in many people's eyes. I'm no door mat either. I do, however, choose the path of humility and patience for now. I'd hate to push her farther away in her current state of mind and become a permanent reminder of why she is with OM or worse, have her call my bluff and tell me she's done and filing for divorce without having had the opportunity to let this thing run its course and provide me some time to work on myslef. Even if it doesn't work out for me, it certainly will strengthen me and build by character.

Again, thanks for your input. I really appreciate it!

[lovethehub]

DD,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I lost your thread somehow..this is going to be long and from WAW perspective!

I discovered that my wife is involved physically and emotionally with a coworker. She has no idea that I am aware of this. I found out by going through her text messages. It was devastating. All the "I love you's" and "can't wait to wake up to your every morning", "you're the first thing I tink of when I wake", "I'm only with my husband for the children's sake", etc. I'm ridiculed and the joke to the two of them.

I know this s*cks for you, I have been on both sides and finding out evidence of an A is one of the most painful things that has ever happened to me. However, you are not ridiculed and you are not a joke to them, this isn't about you at all.

I'm hoping she will take notice of my 180's because prior to my discovery, I was angry, critical, judgemental and had no patience with our two boys 8 & 5.

She will notice, however, it may take quite some time before it makes any difference. This is one reason you are wise to keep your mouth shut about the affair. If you started changing these things AFTER you told her knew, she would suspect you were only doing it because of her A and it would take a lot longer for her to believe they were true changes.

Regardless, I am the significant cause of her disillusionment with our marriage. Granted, she has contributed a good portion to the current state of our marriage as well.

I guarantee she doesn't see her faults right now. She sees that she tried for years to be happy with you and to let you know what she wanted but you didn't listen; you were angry, critical, judgmental and lacked patience. She handled this until she could no longer do so and then she emotionally left your M. THEN (most likely) she began her A because she is already so far gone she no longer thinks it matters because you don't love her and you aren't nice to her and the kids.

What did the DB coach tell you about how to address the affair? Your W is engaging in "cake eating", she's living her "married with children" life while also actively engaging in an affair. Personally I think you should let her know you're aware of the A so that you can set some boundaries. I'm not saying get in a big fight about it, rather I'm saying sit down with her and calmly disclose that you know what she's been up to and lay out whatever your boundaries are, then give her a timeframe to decide what she wants to do.

AS is right IF you are prepared to stick to those boundaries and have W leave the home, or at the very least have an in house separation, when she does not end the A. I would be shocked if you telling her you are aware of it and setting boundaries makes her end the A. It sure didn't make me end mine, I just hid it better.

She's the one who is making choices that could cause everyone invloved alot of damage.

This is how you see it. She sees that you made repeated choices, year after year, that said you didn't care. That caused a lot of damage, too. Do not make the mistake of thinking that this A is the cause of the most damage in your M, esp if you get to the point where the A ends, she knows you know and you try to work through it. By blaming everything on the A, it says "Yes, I was crappy to you for years but that doesn't matter. Your A however, now that really caused some damage" That was the biggest obstacle to my R with my H, everything focused on the A and not the years of pain, loneliness, anguish, begging for a better M, etc that led up to me getting to the point where an A seemed like the best option.

I'm already 180 degrees more pleasant to be around than I was a month ago, but W still complains to OM that she can't stand being around me.

It's been a month! She put up with your behavior for years, do not expect a month (or even 2,3 months) to turn things around. Here is what you need to understand, it took a lot to push her out the door. She isn't going to do cartwheels and be excited about jumping back into your M because you finally decided to change. I am not trying to be mean but this is the reality. It took me at least two years before I was back in far enough for my H to see any difference at all. I believe I was coming back that whole time, but I was so far out of my M, it took that long to really care enough to do what I needed to do. I didn't want a divorce, I just didn't really believe things could be any different.

You're certainly right about it not making sense to me. The big thing is this, and just humor me, please; My wife is a professional with 3 advanced degrees and earned a 6 figure income for years. Due to the economy and loss of her job, she began working at a landscaping design company. The OM is an overweight, immigrant hispanic guy who speaks broken english and doesn't even hold a highschool diploma. WTF? I cannot comprehend this at all! Your thoughts on this?

No, the OM is, in her eyes, a caring man who listens to her and makes her feel good about herself, attractive, worthy. Logically I knew that things would never work with OM and I because he drank too much for me, however, that didn't matter one bit at the time, not in my heart. I wanted to throw away my family and be with him. I felt happy for the first time in years and when you are in A, it's not reality so it doesn't matter if he has diploma, is overweight, whatever; he makes her feel happy and loved again.

IMO affairs are never about the affair partner. They are not even about you, the LBS. They are completely about the WAS's. It's not who he is or what he looks like but how he makes her feel about herself in whatever piece of her that is not whole and needs to be filled up.

Reality Trip is exactly right - this is completely about your WAW.