Quote: However, I very much like sex for the fun aspect of it as well. I've told my wife that I think sex is by far the most fun we can have as human beings. I guess I've stayed away from stressing that because if she thought that all of my whining was just because I was missing out on some fun, I think she'd see me as shallow and selfish. Am I going about this whole thing the wrong way. Should I simply say "I know that you love me - I don't need sex to know that, I just want to have some fun with you"? Obviously I'd phrase that a bit better, but you probably get my point.
I pulled this from over on lowrob's thread. It gets a bit confusing sometimes to know where to respond to someone and not hijack another person's thread, etc.
Has sex gotten too serious? Has the fun aspect of it drifted away under the need for it to be fraught with meaning so that you don't supposedly have the appearance of being "shallow" (your word! not mine! )? Would it be different to deliberately try to be more lighthearted about it? Tease yourself a little bit about it's importance to you?
Of course, right now, I really think you need to stop all conversation about sex, but maybe this is something you can work on with yourself. Work on applying that sense of humor you have to this aspect of your life. It may seem hard at first, but practice makes perfect!
I sometimes feel like I sing the praises of my h too much, but he did do stuff that worked without resorting to an A or the threat of a D. I know that is the approach you're hoping to find. He joked about his heart and his brain being a bit controlled by his penis . He freely admitted/admits that the need for sex is probably more about him than me. He understands that a good backrub pleasures me more physically than an orgasm, but he isn't embarrassed to admit that he needs me to stroke his ego sexually. And because he is willing to acknowledge that and not take it all so seriously, it lightens the situation up and makes it less stressful all around. It is even downright fun for me to do this for him.
[In fact, there has been something he has been wanting me to say to you folks, which I haven't been able to figure out how to fit it in in anyway that is appropriate. This might be the opportunity . He really wants me to sing his praises about his, um, size. So let's not and say we did, okay? There, now I can say I did it. ]
I hope I haven't offended anyone. I know you're hurting and thinking about the humor of it may seem callous. I just want to throw out strategies to consider. This is a strategy that worked.
Thank you both so much for your comments and advice. After being in turmoil all week about how I'm going to handle the intimacy situation with my wife, I think I've finally made some decisions. I'll post them in detail when I have more time, but in short I've decided that even if things don't get any better than they are right now (intimacy-wise), I want to spend the rest of my life with my wife. I love her and need her. I want to be able to tell her that I love her and call her just to say hello, even if doing so doesn't help my "cause". I want to be able to spend time with her alone - go to movies, go on trips, etc. - even if there's no chance we'll have sex. Granted, being able to do those things while at the same time having a fulfilling sexual relationship would have me smiling from ear to ear. But I'm not prepared to give up an otherwise wonderful marriage over a lack of sex.
I have a question for both of you based on something that Lis said. Let say I stop initiating anything physical and explain to my wife why I'm doing so. If the opportunity to take a trip somewhere together (long weekend, etc.) should come up, would it be okay to say "let's go on this trip with the understanding that we will not do anything romantic - no cuddling, kissing, sex, etc. - let's just have fun with each other with no romantic expectations"? I think that would help me a lot, because if I went on a trip knowing that nothing would happen, I wouldn't get upset halfway through when it didn't. Let me know what you think. I'll post more later.
Your recent circle of emotions and feelings has been virtually identicle to mine. A certain amount of frustration, anger, bitterness, sense of unfairness etc - all mixed together. In the end, it seems that all you can really do is try to accept the situation, enjoy the many postives and high points from the relationship and hope that eventually a full relationship will develop and grow. One day, I am sure that my wife will display a sign of willingness to change and at that time, I think I will be capable of nurturing, feeding and cultivating this dormant part of our relationship.
In my case, I feel I am missing about of 25% of what I want from the relationship, I always thought I would have a 100% "score" in the relationship department (naive I guess), and perhaps one day we will be back to that. Like you, I am not willing to give up the 75% because of the missing "25% part".
I am convinced that a positive attitude and enthusiastic acceptance of our wives will be a much better approach than the alternative - the punishment approach. The "punishment" approach (I believe the ignoring the wife routine is one in a long list that I would describe as the punishment approach) would likely be harder on me than on her. From the selfish side, I don't want to punish myself, and I think you came to a similar conclusion. I also don't really want to punish my wife, I would prefer to love her.
The hard part will be to embrace this approach over the long haul (as if it hasn't been long enough) since deep down a full relationship is important and I can't help feel like I am denying myself and the laws of human nature constantly. This feeling is wearing on me and I wish I could rid myself of this nagging feeling..... bit alas!
Anyway, good luck Sooner, I think I am making the right choice and I hope you are too. This forum has been incredibly useful, informative and supportive and the documentation of the unfolding of your circumstances has given me some strange sense of comfort.
Regards LR ps also thanks to Lis,MPT,luvhubby etc.,
Well, I was the typical low desire W, so I hope my point of view will help. My H wanted to ML probably 3x/week on average. I would say "no, later, ok, or go ahead." I always thought that as long as he eventually "got it" everything was ok. I actually liked being chased as I felt "wow, he must really love me", even though I am not a skinny minny (I have ranged from a size 9-14 over our 8 yrs. of marriage and post kids) and have fair to poor body image which has added to my lack of desire.
Anyway, I never understood that he didn't feel loved because of my "rejection." All I heard was that he wanted more sex.
Well, when the &^%$ hit the fan and we talked more about his feelings of rejection, etc.. Then I got it. My point is, I wish H would have told me his FEELINGS re: ML, I just never understood the deep emotional connection that he needed and was lacking from me. Now my LL is also physical touch.
My H and I are S and I pray our marriage will be reconciled. I truly believe if sex wasn't one of our HUGE issues before, we would not be where we are today. My suggestion is (when the time is right) to write S a letter explaining your FEELINGS so that she may fully understand your POV.
Quoting luvhubby: H is now talking about a second child so I know he will initiate sometime in the future for that purpose. That is not what I want at all. I want my H to ML to me because he wants to and afterwards, I want him to hold me, stroke my hair and tell me he loves me etc. H never does that. When we were courting, H would IMMEDIATELY get up to do some studies right after ML and when we were trying for a baby, H would get up immediately afterwards to chat online with his best buddy. Now I fear that if we were to try for another kid, he would get up immediately afterwards to play a PC game or do some work. How to I tell him all this without getting him upset or feeling pressured, I simply have no idea and so I keep quiet and try to maintain peace and harmony in my home.
Sure its not the way you want it, but is it better than nothing? The underhanded thing to do would be to keep taking birth control so you can get more encounters! I remember how excited I was when we decided to have our first child. Of course I was excited about having a baby, but I was also excited about getting to make the baby. But, alas, it only took 3 encounters. I had the same excitement when we decided to have another baby 4 years later. I figured there was no way it would be only 3 encounters again. Well, I was right. It only took 1 time!
FredD
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
Glad to see you are still trying to make your M better Sooner. I haven't been around in a while because I'm tired of trying. I don't have much hope that my sitch will improve. I don't feel close to my W anymore. We have made love a few times in the last month. She initiates and then I get in the mood. It is so different than before. Sure its great that she actually initiates, but its not the same anymore since I feel so distant from her. Its just too little too late. I spend time each day strategizing how we could seperate without totally screwing up my life (which is impossible). Then I spend time each night in prayer asking God to give me the patience and determination to stay married.
FredD
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
Quote: I have a question for both of you based on something that Lis said. Let say I stop initiating anything physical and explain to my wife why I'm doing so. If the opportunity to take a trip somewhere together (long weekend, etc.) should come up, would it be okay to say "let's go on this trip with the understanding that we will not do anything romantic - no cuddling, kissing, sex, etc. - let's just have fun with each other with no romantic expectations"? I think that would help me a lot, because if I went on a trip knowing that nothing would happen, I wouldn't get upset halfway through when it didn't. Let me know what you think.
If you're asking how would your wife respond, I don't know. I can tell you how I think I would've responded, but also think Lis would probably respond differently from me .The only way you'll know how such a statement will affect your own situation is to try it out. If you feel saying it will help you deal better with the situation, then that's a goal in and of itself.
Congrats on coming to a meta-decision about where you're going to let this problem take you. I hope it makes it easier for you to decide what actions or non-actions you will take. (Ick, that sounds so clinical!) You know what I mean, I hope. I had to come to a similar decision about some things I thought I needed from my H.
Thank you all for your comments and support. It's been a couple of days since I last posted and I'm sticking with my latest decision to make the best of my marriage regardless of the lack of intimacy. I'm much more comfortable being able to tell my wife that I love her and not trying to punish her in hopes of her changing. I even did a fantastic job washing her car today without being asked.
I stated before that I was going to post more about the decisions I've made, but I've actually forgotten what else I wanted to say. I plan to continue posting regularly, but for the most part my questions won't be about how to get my wife to change as much as they'll be about how to keep myself from blowing up when the lack of intimacy really gets me down. I've realized that my wife does love me, that there's little I can do to change her desires, and that my best hope for eventually having the marriage I want is to stop pressuring her and give her the time she needs to sort things out. Unfortunately, I've realized that this will likely be more than a couple of weeks.
I'm off to bed, and for once I'm actually not thinking about sex (well, not much anyway). Between taking my daughter fishing three times over the weekend, hitting golf balls at the driving range (I'm thinking about starting to play), mowing, weedeating, edging, and car washing, I'm beat!
I sure appreciate everyone's advice and always welcome more.
I’ve been reading everyone’s posts but haven’t been able to bring myself to contribute. There have been a lot of good ideas flying around though. Like FredD, I’ve been at a total loss about any ideas to improve my relationship with wife so I’ve just given up on trying. That doesn’t seem to be helping much either. Who knows?
In general, I think your plan is pretty sound. Accepting the fact that you might not ever have sex again or very little is a very hard pill to swallow. Deciding that you are willing to let your needs be ignored because you love your wife so much is commendable. I’m not sure that I have the same fortitude to be on hold for an undetermined amount of time. Your plan is likely to be successful in making your wife happy--she will get the low or no sex marriage she has been wanting. She’ll probably be relieved and think “finally! He’s quit needing sex!”. You may even get lucky every now and then, which, unfortunately will only remind you of how wonderful sex is and make you ache for it until the next time---some unknown distance in the future.
I’m sorry I may be sounding less than totally positive here. I’m projecting my own frustration and sexual stalemate upon your situation. I do think that in the short term (say 2-8 months) your plan will help you to survive. At least you are thinking that you won’t be having sex. This may sound strange for some but having hope (say even for a weekend at the beach or something) is the worst thing for your own sanity. Don’t let a coy smile or flirtation from her fool you into thinking “there’s hope tonight!”. Don’t get excited about getting some until you’re actually getting it. Do everything in your power to resist initiating. If she asks why your sex drive has dropped off (it would be great if she actually got to the point of curiosity), tell her calmly that it is stronger than ever but that you’ve just been trying to be patient because you love her. If you are lucky enough to get a break like that you may have a foothold for real two-way improvement.
This may help her to realize that it is her that you desire, not just sex or she might relax enough to remember what it is like to love and desire you. I truly hope this is the case. You need to have the strength to hold out without looking at her lustfully or saying anything that might indicate your attraction to her and yet bounce along with a smile and a helping hand. What you are setting out to do is painfully difficult, I know because this has essentially been my approach lately. The real problem is no longer how to get passion back into the marriage but rather how to survive a passionless marriage and keep your sanity.
However, I think that simply swallowing your frustration in order to keep a friendly equilibrium is, in the long term(8 months-? years) a dangerously precarious approach and in the end will eat away at your self-worth and personal well-being. There will another day in the future when you will need to bring this issue up with her for consideration. The longer you can patiently (outwardly) wait until that day the more impact the volcano's eruption will have. I'm sorry but I simply can't accept this as a one sided issue. Bottom line for me is it is wrong to withhold sexual love from your spouse. It leaves an emptiness in the relationship that can not be effectively or indefinitely filled with anything else. Some will no doubt disagree with me...
Maybe Michelle’s next book could be “The Masturbators Kama Sutra: How to Survive a Passionless Marriage Without Leaving”
I agree with the general points and ideas in your last post. I would point out that I do not believe that our spouses are "withholding sex" in the sense that it appears that most of our spouses have no desire for sex and are likely totally turned off or disgusted by the thought of having to engage in any form of sexual contact.
Essentially, they have no sexual feelings to give and therefore can not be withholding intimate contact because there is none to give. I for one am not interested in intimate contact with my wife if she is feeling like vomitting every time we have sex. On the one hand,she can't help her feelings and on the other hand, I can't help having my needs.
Difficult isn't it? Particularly when you are struggling to maintain a marriage where tradition doesn't permit intimate contact outside the marriage, yet there is no intimate contact inside the marriage.
I'm afraid for many of us there is no satisfactory answer - the reality would seem to be that both spouses will live in some degree of frustration/misery for as long as they stay within the traditonal boundaries of marriage.
Speaking from the perspective of an individual that has had virtually no sexual contact with the wife for five years or so, it is extremely difficult to be truly happy in a non sexual relationship. I agree that Michele should write a book on helping spouses like us develop appropriate coping mechanisms to deal with the reality of our situation - that is our sex life at age 40 (give or take a few years) is probably over forever.
Michele's book on the "Sex Starved Marriage" is great if the partner has a willingness or the ability to try and deal with the situation, but I know that my wife has no ability to change. In my case, my wife has indicated that her sex drive is over forever and will never return. I don't know if your wife has been so blunt, but it would seem that you could be in a similar situation. Putting Michele's book, the "Sex Starved Marriage" in front of her (no matter how subtly arranged) would be like saying "I didn't understand what you meant when you said that bit about no sex ever for any reason - so lets start that sex fight again". The next six months of life would again be a cold barron existence of silence and hostility. I can't go there yet again. I really hope that Michele can help us in this regard as there appear to be many of us in the same boat.
Anyway, sorry to be so bleak, but I just can't see the situation any other way if your wife has entirely lost her sex drive and does not believe that she will ever be able to regain it. LR.
)? Would it be different to deliberately try to be more lighthearted about it? Tease yourself a little bit about it's importance to you?
. He freely admitted/admits that the need for sex is probably more about him than me. He understands that a good backrub pleasures me more physically than an orgasm, but he isn't embarrassed to admit that he needs me to stroke his ego sexually. And because he is willing to acknowledge that and not take it all so seriously, it lightens the situation up and makes it less stressful all around. It is even downright fun for me to do this for him.
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