Thanks for being the voice of reason LH. I have been trying not to think about the EA. I can't give her too much credit for stopping the EA since I really don't know if it has stopped. She still is checking her email all the time which makes me suspicious. It could be just work related but who knows. She's a teacher and school is out so what email could be so important? I know she was still emailing OG about a month ago even after she swore the relationship would be strictly professional. The emails I read were not what I would call "strictly professional" but weren't overly incriminating either. She has plenty of opportunity to sneak around with him and I would never know. Like I said, I just try not to think about it.
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
I've been out of town for the last three days without a computer so I'm just getting caught up. I'm amazed at how similar all of our situations are! While I was gone I thought about my marriage situation a lot, as I always seem to do when I travel, and I was about ready to give up. But seeing that you guys are dealing with such similar situations gives me enough hope to keep trying - even if neither of you have found the answer yet.
Here's a brief update - unfortunately more of the same. This past weekend I tried cuddling up to my wife again, after having gotten along really well for a few days, and as usual she nearly fell off the bed trying to keep her distance. As usual, her reaction hurt my feelings, got me upset, and led to the sex argument which carried over to the next day and got pretty bad. Although I love my wife and we get along fine otherwise, I'm starting to feel that she's really not even my friend anymore. The fact that aside from the sex issue we get along well doesn't really say a whole lot - in my entire life I can't think of many people that I couldn't get along with. But my true friends care about me and try to make me feel better when I'm hurting. However my wife only seems to care about herself. And although it would be hard to find a nicer, more caring guy than me, my wife seems to continually think of me as a jerk. I'm finding that she harbors bad feelings for me for weeks, months, maybe years after an argument, and the fact that she can't forgive me for the things I've said in anger may be the main reason that she won't put any effort into our relationship. But while I regret some of the things that I've said, none of them are "unforgiveable". I can't do anything about them now - I've apologized and made every effort to show her that I love her and care about her. However she's never sincerly apologized to me for anything she's done to hurt me, yet I don't hold those things against her. I'm beginning to feel more resentment towards her and it makes me want to stop being around her. But how can I do that when I want to be the best father that I can to my girls?
Here are a couple of things from Fred that hit home with me:
"... all the changes I have made to make her more happy. But she isn't going to change anything she does. Hence the one about "if you are so unhappy the why don't you just get out". Basically that's her cop out so she doesn't have to try to improve anything. Her philosophy is that things are the way they are and efforts to change them are somehow bad and unnecessary. Yet she enjoys the fruits of my efforts."
"We were in New Orleans over the weekend and I let my eyes wander all over the place. That is something I have never done in front of my W before. I made no attempt to not be obvious. She never said a word."
I'm looking for a new approach and I'm wondering if that one might have any merit. I've always tried to keep from staring at other women in front of my wife - not that I'm always successful. But maybe being more obvious about it would be a good change. Maybe it would motivate her to want to be sexy again - to get my attention. On the other hand, maybe she'd just hate me more. Any comments are welcome.
AchingMan, I thought of something today while flying home which I thought was quite profound, only to find that you had posted the same thought. Here it is:
"They’ve already been having an affair with someone else: themselves. By keeping their love to themselves they have essentially been cheating on us."
This crossed my mind while reading an article about how to tell if a woman is cheating on you. I honestly don't think that my wife is having an affair, but she certainly exhibits some of the signs: turning down your invitations claiming she's too busy with whatever, less talkative and more distracted but she won't have a convincing explanation when you ask her why, stops initiating sex - and when you try she'll act uncomfortable and hesitant, and when you call her she'll sound vaguely disappointed that it's you.
I've rambled too long here, but basically I need to find a whole new approach to initiating change in my marriage. I had hoped that clearly communicating my feelings would make my wife care enough to change - but she doesn't. I hoped that trying to be the perfect husband would make her fall in love with me again, but it hasn't. I don't know what to do. I'm tempted to stay away from the house as much as possible - start going out for drinks more often, take up a hobby that keeps me away from home (golf for instance) - but in so doing I wouldn't be able to spend as much time with my girls. I'm just getting tired of this mundane life and I need some sort of change. Let me know if anyone has any good ideas.
Quoting sooner1992:I'm tempted to stay away from the house as much as possible - start going out for drinks more often, take up a hobby that keeps me away from home (golf for instance) - but in so doing I wouldn't be able to spend as much time with my girls. I'm just getting tired of this mundane life and I need some sort of change. Let me know if anyone has any good ideas.
About three years ago I started doing just that. But I always tried to involve my boys when possible. For example, we started camping on weekends. Sometimes the whole family, but often us guys would take off for the whole weekend and leave mom at home alone.
Anyway, your girls might like golf, or tennis, or maybe fishing. Take them along and leave mom at home alone (or with the littlest one) for an afternoon. If she wants to come, make it a family outing. But -- this is key -- plan events that you enjoy without regard to your wife's enjoyment or preference. If she doesn't want to participate, tell her you're giving her a break, make it a positive thing.
I also started some volunteer work on evenings after work. Now I am busy two or three nights a week sometimes. Over time, my wife has become very supportive of my activities. I think she respects the fact I have a life of my own outside of work and marriage.
Now when I cancel an evening activity and instead ask her out to a movie, she is very appreciative. I only started doing this the last couple of weeks (after giving her SSM to read) and it has helped improve our sex life, too. I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before!
It helps, though, to have an activity or event to cancel or skip. Then it becomes a lot more special, even though before I would give her every night of the week.
Thanks WNC. That is helpful and I appreciate the input. The fact that my girls are only 5 and 2 makes it hard to come up with things to do sometimes. I plan to take my 5 year old fishing soon - I was actually in the backyard with her last night teaching her how to cast her new Barbie fishing pole. But when she realizes that fishing involves a lot of sitting and waiting, I don't think she'll remain too enthused. I've also thought about tennis, but my 5 year old isn't really interested in sports and my more athletic 2 year old is still a little young. Nonetheless, I should probably just get them out on a court (while nobody else is trying to play) and let them try hitting the ball a little. That might be a start anyway. Thanks for giving me some ideas.
I think WNC has some great points and in general getting out on your own is going to help you keep your sanity. How about mini putt with the girls? Going out drinking with the guys should help you deal with being alone in this and it might make her eventually want some of that time back with you. I don't know, I almost feel like I can't make any suggestions cuz nothing is working for me either.
I have also been doing more things with my kid and it helps a lot. When we’re the three of us together there is a tension between us, I know we are both jealous or envious of gaining the affections of my wife. My kid tries to wedge himself between us if we hug or jumps in with some sort of disruptive behavior. We generally get along great, more like brothers, but there’s something about my wife’s presence that gets us both in an aggressive mood. I get really angry that all the possible moments to be alone or have contact with my wife get used up with all of us together. He get’s irritated with me because he sees every move I make, every glance at my wife as a sexual advance and taking possible affection away from him, yet we shower him with affection and encouragement.
Don’t get me wrong, I love them both more than anything, I just feel resentful that after everybody else gets fed, there’s nothing more than a “g’night honey” for me. My wife has been working more and later lately. I’m very supportive of her working and doing things with her friends, generally being her own person. But it totally irks me that she’s always too tired for me. I get the scraps, the leftovers, which I can’t help but devour but I’m left hungry for more, for a full meal, if y’all get my meaning.
Anyway, I’m drifting away from my point. When I get away from my wife’s lovely distraction, I start to come down off the hormones and I think more clearly. My son and I go camping, fishing or hunting together and all the competition is gone. I don’t ache for my wife as much and I enjoy just being with him.
“I need to find a whole new approach to initiating change in my marriage. I had hoped that clearly communicating my feelings would make my wife care enough to change - but she doesn't. I hoped that trying to be the perfect husband would make her fall in love with me again, but it hasn't. I don't know what to do. I'm tempted to stay away from the house as much as possible - start going out for drinks more often, take up a hobby that keeps me away from home (golf for instance) - but in so doing I wouldn't be able to spend as much time with my girls. I'm just getting tired of this mundane life and I need some sort of change. Let me know if anyone has any good ideas.” (Sooner)
This quote really struck me. We all seem to be hitting similar points of frustration. We’ve read the SSM and connected with the ideas presented, implemented many of them, have worked hard to give our wives what they seem to want and need, we are kind and sweet, we voice our opinions (at least we used to, until we got that right revoked last week)...and yet we see no hope in ending the painful wound of the sexual imbalance in our relationships. There seems to be no choice but to live with the torture or leave, nothing we do seems to have an effect.
I’m sorry for getting so gloomy here, it’s just my own up and down hitting the floor. When children are involved I guess we have to bury our sadness and frustrations until they are on their own. After that point will come a sort of judgment day when a decision will be made--to continue in a one-sided relationshiip with a selfish spouse or if the spouse is unwilling to work on improving things--leave. Life is too short to be unhappy for so long.
A new approach must be found before it’s too late. The hope I have is that between all our heads we will discover things that will help. At least we have known that we are not alone.
Well, I don't know if the stars aligned or if things I've done have made the difference but my W obliged me with 3 nights in a row of intimacy. The first night I was already asleep and she woke me up and initiated. I was still in my "unfeeling" funk and was really tired so I wasn't too enthusiastic. But wow, she was determined and did all the work so what the heck! I kept thinking to my self "Who is this woman and what did she do with my wife?" I can't help but think the fact I had turned her down a week or so before, been distant from her, and the openly eyeing other women in front of her somehow increased her desire. Not just a desire to make me happy but true desire. Don't ask me to explain how that worked!
That episode pretty much brought me to my old high desire self again. So the next night I initiated and she was into it for the most part. The third night she wasn't really into it, and said so, but it happened anyway. She did say before we got started not to expect it again for "some time". I can't complain at all but of course I'm wondering how long "some time" is. A week? A month? Do I need to go back to being distant and eyeing other women in front of her? Fortunately work has me too busy to over contemplate things like I normally do.
After three nights our R seems great, yet I doubt any permanent change is occuring. We have a 3yr old (who is a complete terror these days) and a 6yr old. It seems that either I am handling the kids and she's out of the picture or vice versa. Seldom is there full family interaction. Lately I've been taking the kids to the beach or other places to let my W have time for herself. She is really into scrapbooking with her friends. This makes it easy for me to keep my distance from her if I want and still get a lot of time in with the kids. Plus, I feel a lot better about our sitch by making it obvious I can handle the kids by myself without any trouble or complaining. (W complains big time if she has to handle the kids for very long without me).
Sooner, maybe you could just take the kids to McDonalds one night a week without your wife. Play it up as giving her some free time while putting a little distance between you? I've done this some lately. Trying this "distance" thing sure seems like playing with fire though. I guess I haven't really been playing but letting my actions follow my feelings.
FredD
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
Quoting AchingMan: When children are involved I guess we have to bury our sadness and frustrations until they are on their own. After that point will come a sort of judgment day when a decision will be made--to continue in a one-sided relationshiip with a selfish spouse or if the spouse is unwilling to work on improving things--leave. Life is too short to be unhappy for so long.
AchingMan
I catch myself thinking a lot like your quote. I need to stick it out until my kids are grown but fantasize about going my own way afterwards. I've even been pushing a little for my wife to have a good career and retirement plan so she can support herself without me if and when "judgement day" happens. I'm not sure if my little fantasy is healthy or not.
FredD
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
Thanks AchingMan and FredD. You both had a lot of good comments. Fred, congratulations on your recent success. It's reassuring to see someone with the same problems making some genuine progress. I hope it continues.
In my never-ending search for answers, I came across something on the internet today that I thought you both might want to read. It appears to be a work in progress with new topics being added occasionally, and I haven't finished reading what's currently available due to the fact that I really need to get back to work, but so far it's made me see things a lot differently. It's given me a better understanding than anything I've read so far of what my wife might be going through. Here's the link:
Just wanted to document a little bit of success, although considering the circumstances it might not be worth getting overly excited about. Friday night the whole family (wife, daughters, and myself) went out to celebrate a friend's birthday. There was a group of around 12 counting kids - mostly people that my wife works with and their spouses. We met for dinner then went bowling. While at the bowling alley, my wife had a few too many drinks which is unusual for her. We were there until about midnight (kept the girls out really late, but they behaved well and were really cute) and not long before leaving my wife walked over to me holding our two year old, gave me kind of a group hug, then kissed me. And for the first time in years, a passionate kiss! Soon after, we loaded up the girls and headed home, and as I drove my wife held on to me and laid her head on my shoulder. Granted, she was drunk, but it reminded me of how things used to be. When we got to the house I had to help her to the bed (the alcohol really seemed to hit her as we drove home) then I took the girls upstairs and got them to sleep. When I came back downstairs she was passed out on the floor not far from the bed after apparently making a run to the bathroom. I covered her with a blanket, pulled up a pillow, and fell asleep on the floor next to her so I could help her into bed when she woke up.
I honestly don't know if she'll even remember kissing me, but after so long it was really nice, even if she was drunk. And it felt good driving her home and helping her to the bed because, for a short time, she needed me. Even much earlier in the night, I knew that once we got home she'd either fall right to sleep or pass out, so I didn't get my hopes up about sex. I was actually quite happy just to have her kiss me.
I realize that I may be crazy, but I can't help but think that this was a step in the right direction. Just trying to be optimistic I guess.
I'm needing some advice here. Not much has changed with my situation - my wife and I continue to get along just fine except for the fact that nothing is improving in the romance department. Yesterday I asked her again to read SSM saying that it may or may not help, but that it seems like little to ask for her just to read a book. Her response was something like "fine, I'll read it!". I was a little put off by her negativity and tried to have a non-argumentative discussion, but as always she got mad - saying that I was attacking her - and eventually we were into a full-fledged argument. I'm sick of this cycle and absolutely must find some different approach or I'm going to go crazy!
Here are my questions. First, I seldom initiate anything blatantly romantic anymore, but I do occasionally try to cuddle up (barely) in bed or put a hand on her arm, shoulder, etc. when were sitting close, just trying to get the point across that I want to be close to her. Should I completely stop all forms of touching? Second, some days she'll give me a goodbye kiss (just an unromantic smooch like you'd give your grandmother) when she leaves for work. Should I start avoiding/refusing this as if I'm not interested? Third, through all of this we've continued to say "I love you" at the end of every phone call. Under normal circumstances I would prefer to keep doing this - I like telling her that I love her. But I don't feel like she loves me, and I'd much rather see it in her actions than hear her say it. Should I stop saying "I love you" on the phone"?
My thinking here is to do something that might make her notice daily that we lack closeness, possibly to the point that she'd miss it. Is there any merit to trying these things, or will it just screw up the only hint of romance that remains in my marriage? In short, will taking this approach make things worse? I'd appreciate any thoughts.
