Thread #8 - It's time.

[vera be fierce]

Navy I hope your evening went okay.

[Navyguy]

Actually, it did go ok. Maybe even a little better than that.

W got home around 3:30 pm. The kids were, of course, happy to see her. I kind of laid low for the first hour or so.

Then I told her about all the things we did while she was gone...and it was strange. She was actually actively listening to me, making eye contact, and cared about what I was telling her...she even asked amplifying questions about things to carry on the conversation.

I don't think she's done that in years.

Then the kids wanted to go swimming, so we took them to the pool and ordered pizza there. I swam with the kids and W sat and watched. She looked like she was having a "heavy" text conversation with someone. I think it was Ohio BFF...no idea what it was about. I had a good time with the kids.

Then we got home and I put the kids to bed, and she went out on the deck. I walked out to ask her something and she said "sorry I wasn't there to help put the kids to bed, I was out here collecting my thoughts".

Obviously she wanted to tell me something, so I bit and said "well, what did you collect?"

Then she said she had spent most of the time away thinking about who she has become and the way she treats me and things she has said to me. She said she has said some nasty things to me when we have gotten into arguments, and that I am not a bad person and I didn't deserve that. Then she said she didn't know why she had treated me like that...she speculated that it was maybe her overcompensating for the past, when she felt that I used to "fight unfairly". She started to tear up. Then she told me she regrets saying those things to me, and that she is sorry.

I think my jaw dropped to the floor, but I managed to respond with "thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me". She said "We have really been through a lot together". I agreed.

Then we sat there for awhile and looked at each other...

I think she is just starting to process some things, so I didn't push the R talk any further.

We spent the next couple hours hanging out and talking about her trip and things going on with Ohio BFF and other friends. Same thing as earlier...lots of eye contact and her showing interest in what I was saying.

I went to bed around 11. I think she stayed up until about 1.

I'm not reading into this too much. But it was genuine, I have no doubt.

I think it was the first time that W looked herself in the mirror. No idea what this could lead to, if anything. I'm going to stick to the plan.

Interesting...

[Starsky309]

Then she said she had spent most of the time away thinking about who she has become and the way she treats me and things she has said to me. She said she has said some nasty things to me when we have gotten into arguments, and that I am not a bad person and I didn't deserve that. Then she said she didn't know why she had treated me like that...she speculated that it was maybe her overcompensating for the past, when she felt that I used to "fight unfairly". She started to tear up. Then she told me she regrets saying those things to me, and that she is sorry.

I think my jaw dropped to the floor, but I managed to respond with "thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me". She said "We have really been through a lot together". I agreed.

Well done, Navy. Too many people say things like "That's OK," which only excuses the CB. You handled it perfectly.


Starsky

[2stepboogie]

Neither time, nor accepting your feelings, nor being grateful for having her (or him) in your life or having such a relationship, nor any empty, irrelevant suggestion people make will make you "feel" any better. Because these soothing suggestions are as palliative as Tylenol is to a stab-wound. Where whatever we try misses the point starts, among many other things (most of which are a mystery to me) by some misconceptions.




First we have understand that love is ownership, and that you have lost the rights to your property. Even though people elevate it (love) to sublime heights, it (love) just is a violent and possessive obsession over another person. The intensity of which is proven post split up.




Second, in my experience, it seems to me that such relationships (the sounds of which yours belongs to), are pretty hectic and painful all along. While we like to delude ourselves, "post-mortem" in a way, if you think about it, your life was hell during the relationship. If it wasn't constant fights, there was the involuntary obsessive demand for attention that you couldn't help but dedicate to that person. In most cases this attention varies from paralyzing (jealousy, continuous check up, sms - where are you, what are you doing etc) to a continuous nagging and a needing of being in the other's presence to the point that solitude is not the same anymore. Can you really tell me that you were "pain-free" during that time?




Also, we seem to focus too much on how good we *Feel* as opposed to the contents of life. This is more prevalent to very strong or very weak types. The mediocre ones are selfish enough and have figured this out long ago, genetically in a sense. They desire and consequently feel less in life (what ghosts!). To them a break-up is a bit too-spicy bite in life, which they get over fairly easily and move on to their next bland, socially comfortable position. I am referring to the strong types here (and in this entire post). You have to come to terms and realize that you never *feel* exactly good about your possession. The moments of good feelings are ephemeral and they usually occur during the transitory point of a new conquest. But new thirst and pain soon arises as you strive for more. The point is that you have to understand that *feeling* is a smoke mirror and the underlying mechanism is something else.




A cure I can imagine (and worked for me) is to find something new to obsesses about. Try setting a challenging goal for yourself, start a difficult project, start working out and obsess about yourself, learn something new and challenging. Difficult goals require the same mindset that a strong obsessive types naturally have. This way, your drive does not end up destroying you, but works to your benefit. And it should be so for strong-willed people. Looking back you will laugh at yourself now. But at least this way there will be substantial fulfillment and complete self-dependency. And there is no-one better to love than onself. As far as pain... it will only make you stronger, if you can only learn how to digest it properly.




2Step

[Denver_2010]

Then we got home and I put the kids to bed, and she went out on the deck. I walked out to ask her something and she said "sorry I wasn't there to help put the kids to bed, I was out here collecting my thoughts".

Obviously she wanted to tell me something, so I bit and said "well, what did you collect?"

Then she said she had spent most of the time away thinking about who she has become and the way she treats me and things she has said to me. She said she has said some nasty things to me when we have gotten into arguments, and that I am not a bad person and I didn't deserve that. Then she said she didn't know why she had treated me like that...she speculated that it was maybe her overcompensating for the past, when she felt that I used to "fight unfairly". She started to tear up. Then she told me she regrets saying those things to me, and that she is sorry.

I think my jaw dropped to the floor, but I managed to respond with "thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me". She said "We have really been through a lot together". I agreed.

Then we sat there for awhile and looked at each other...

I think she is just starting to process some things, so I didn't push the R talk any further.

We spent the next couple hours hanging out and talking about her trip and things going on with Ohio BFF and other friends. Same thing as earlier...lots of eye contact and her showing interest in what I was saying.

I went to bed around 11. I think she stayed up until about 1.

I'm not reading into this too much. But it was genuine, I have no doubt.

I think it was the first time that W looked herself in the mirror. No idea what this could lead to, if anything. I'm going to stick to the plan.

Interesting...

That IS interesting Navy. I was just getting ready to write a post to you telling you that I did not believe that you could do this, fix your M, without an actual physical S. But, maybe you still have a chance.

IMO, you handled this perfectly. You were 'just' her friend. And THAT is what you need to do right now, IMO.

If she is going to turn, it isn't going to be because of anything that you proactively do or say. It is going to be because she does look in the mirror and figures her own head out.

I was going to say that the only way that that was going to happen is with a physical S and probably a lengthy period of no contact with you. That she has to learn to miss you and that being in the same home does not allow for that.

But maybe... maybe she started to figure it out while in Ohio.

Continue to be her friend. And continue with the plan. If she has an epiphany, she will let you know.

I'm still pulling for you Navy! You have fought SO hard. You have so much to be proud of. Really.

Denver

P.S. I also noticed that there was a 2Step sighting! Nice to see that the Shakespeare of our time has not disappeared completely!

[greenblue90]

Navy
I do see the physical separation as effective like Denver says. In my case I didnt have that and it has made things harder. Here has been my approach though.

Be the husband you want to be, be the husband you owe yourself to be.

This means a husband who is respected, loves; but also gives respect and gives love.

The behavior your W has been showing is wonderful, but remember this is the baseline not the holy grail. You should get this at a minimum. Don't be afraid to demand it.

Then balance it out with the love and support she and your family needs.

Nasty behavior will get her a divorce, good behavior will get her a loving husband.

Ok enough negativity

You're in a good position, time to solidify your gains and move forward.

[Navyguy]

Well, after we got the kids in bed last night, W asked me what I thought of our MC appt. last week.

Apparently she didn't just want to apologize to me last night...she wanted to talk through everything and where we're going from here. She thought I changed the subject last night after she apologized and assumed that I didn't want to talk last night. I told her I thought that was all she was ready to talk about, and that I wasn't trying to redirect the conversation at all.

I told her my thoughts on the appointment. I said I think that C was right on just about everything. W said she pretty much agreed with everything that C said too. She said it is unfair to me that she's been hanging on. And that she's been hanging on because she's scared that she can't make it on her own. And she's scared that I will "get nasty" in the D process once I have truly accepted we are done. I told her my priorities would be #1 - The kids, #2 - Us.

Then W said she wants me to be happy...and she still wants us to be friends and be able to talk to each other and be there for each other. But that she just doesn't want the M anymore. She told me that what happened in the past is in the past, but that she can't get over it, and that her feelings for me have not changed at all since she was first "done" in her mind, despite all the changes I have made.

She kept talking about how she has been controlled all her life, and that she never got to experience freedom like I have, and that she's been through so many horrible experiences, and that she feels like she deserves more.

I didn't know what else to say at this point, so I got quiet. W kept trying to pry me to talk and to cheer me up.

Eventually I gathered my thoughts and tried to summarize what she told me. Here's what I said: "W, I know that you are done. You want us to separate and divorce. That is not what I want, but I respect the fact that you are done and respect what you want, so I will cooperate and try to work toward a solution that works best for all of us".

She said that is what she was saying.

So I asked if she wanted to go back to the MC to try to figure out this stuff.

For some reason, at that point, she thought I was talking about discussing her new guy-friend with our C. I have no idea why she thought that. So we got side-tracked on that for awhile. She told me that it really hurts her that I would even consider that she'd been cheating on me. I tried explaining to her how I saw him as a threat to our limbo situation, and that is what really bothered me...but I don't think she heard me. I told her I don't know why this even came up, and we got back to the real issues.

I think she was trying to talk me into being "ok" with us getting D'd. I am not ok with that, and I don't think I should have to be. She kept saying she doesn't want to hurt anyone. It's like she just wants me to sweep the hurt aside and tell her that I'm good with this and it's for the best.

At this point, we got off topic again and started talking about past crap. Once again, I redirected us by summarizing the main points of what we were discussing: "She wants D, I don't, but I will not stop it, and that we were going to go back to MC to get help figuring things out".

At that point (about 1 AM) I asked W if there was anything we hadn't discussed from the appt. that she wanted to talk about. She said there wasn't. So I thanked her for talking and listening and I got up and went to bed.

She didn't come to bed until sometime around 2:30 or 3. Probably doing some more "processing".

Denver and GB: I think your instinct on the physical S needing to happen is correct. And I think it is inevitable at this point. Or at least, that's the position I need to take.

W's "look in the mirror" was limited to her seeing the nasty things she has said to me. She doesn't want to do that anymore. But that was the extent of it.

So, we continue the march toward a S/D. I have IC today and EE this weekend. Hopefully that will help me process some things.

[JustStunned]

I received the same “I want a D, I know this will hurt you and tear family asunder, but I still want us to be friends.” speech. IMO it is script.

In my sitch remaining friends was a strategy. It meant giving her everything she initially asked for and then giving her everything she forgot to ask for. I retained an attorney from the onset and settled in. It got ugly, it still is.

I hope I am wrong. I hope you have an eleventh hour change in your sitch and she wakes the he11 up. If not then I hope yours truly is a painless cooperative process.

Prepare for it not to be sunshine and lollipops.

Keep the welfare of your children in the forefront and keep your honor intact. Stand for what is fair with those two items in the forefront.

[greenblue90]

Navy
The veering to the OM, and the bringing up of past grievances was a diversionary tactic. She brought it up to throw you off and regain the moral high ground. At the very least to remind herself that she doesn't want you.

As for her wanting you to be cheery about D. Your W wants to gut the family and walk away thinking she did everyone a favor. You are living your truth and that is good. This divorce is her choice, because she won't work on the marriage. Just be careful that you don't get restuck in the previous cycle of her not leaving, but not working on herself either.

[Navyguy]

Thanks for the posts everyone. Still just trying to be W's friend here.

EE starts tomorrow. I will try to post about it while I'm there, but I might not be able to...it is a busy weekend.

I hadn't told W why I was going to Philly this weekend, but she asked last night, so I showed her a little bit about EE...she seemed somewhat interested in it.

Had an ok night last night. W asked me how I was holding up, so I was honest with her - crappy. She's feeling about the same as me. We had a positive talk about some pretty deep feelings. Again, W brought up her past. I think she may be starting to draw the link between her past and our problems...but I could be wrong.

Our first appt. with the C to start working out how we're going to do the S is next Tuesday.

Hopefully by then I'll be a changed man.