Going around in circles

[angel61]

Hi Accuray, Thanks for swinging by!

I’m not sure I know how to link my threads together, but if you click on my posting name and look at the topics I’ve created, you would see my story.

I see our similarities now, but I got to that conclusion in a very convoluted manner…..

I’ll give you an abbreviated history of my sitch:

Married 15 years, together 17. I am 5 years older than my H – I’m 50, he is 45. One D, now 13 years old.

We started as friends, and our R developed along the way until we got married. No goo-goo eyes for us, no mushy stuff. But although my H was not the affectionate type, he was very caring, cooked for me, we had many fun times together, we traveled and our sex life was good. We soon had a daughter, and our careers were blossoming. We migrated to the US, had some hard decisions to make, made some mistakes in real estate, had elderly parents to deal with, but otherwise, I thought we were OK. My only complaint, which got louder and more frequent as the years went by, was the lack of affection.

Until I got the bomb (June 2010) The usual script - it was all my fault, I killed his love for me with how I was - demanding, controlling, too much expectations, yada yada. H said that maybe it would be better if we parted ways. I did everything wrong but somehow later started DBing naturally, then I found the DB book and everything resonated with me.

Of course, later, I found out that there was an ongoing EA. (Sept. 2010) – a girl from a foreign country where H went for research work.

He helped the girl get accepted for a post doc position in the US, which started Oct 2010 and ended December 2011. That time was pure hell for me, and many times I just wanted to give up if not for our D. A few times I gave H the ultimatum but in the end, he would not leave.

He claimed that the EA ended in November 2010, but they continued to keep in touch on a more superficial level – more to help the OW finish her research work (H is pretty smart, OW is not!). But of course, it continued to keep H heart away from me, as his emotional needs and fantasies were concentrated on OW. He stayed home all the while though, and continued to fulfill his roles at home and as a dad, which I could not ever find fault with. For a while though, although we slept in the same bed, we did not ML at all.

Ultimately, he told me that he could not leave – he could not throw away our life together, and he could not hurt our D. Problem was, he did not feel anything for me. He did not know how we could exist that way. He told me that he feels he made a mistake in us getting married, that he married his best friend and that our foundation was not strong enough.

However, he was still in contact with OW even then. I asked that if he wanted to keep our marriage together, that he had to stop his EA and he asked me for time, and that he was going to do it his way.

WE decided to go to Retrouvaille. It was a turning point, and I thought that things would be good after that. We started to ML again, and he said that he wanted to make the decision to love and commit to our M.

However, that’s when I started feeling the same way as you are now. Although my H said he was determined to stay, he did not seem to be doing the work. I pushed, and he withdrew. He felt he was back, but I did not.

We went through tough times all over again, more because he felt that instead of moving forward, we were backsliding, and that I was expecting that he become what he was not all over again, just like pre-bomb. That was what pushed him away in the first place – his perception of me being unhappy in the marriage.

It came to back to a point where we started to think of separation again – discussing that we should probably think about it when D has graduated, etc. Our D has issues – she has an anxiety disorder and once even cut herself.

The rest of the story you will see here in piecing….. and this is where you will see my effort at self evaluaton, all this discussions about boundaries, tough love, etc. which I feel have merit but which I am not ready to implement as I still see changes happening in our sitch without me having to stir the pot.

Anyway, I have read many of your posts to other people and they resonate with me, and have started following your posts more closely. We may have different sitches but there is also a lot of the same things.

I feel like my H is an emotionally unavailable person. Even with his family and friends. he kows this and even during our Retrouvaille sessions expresed his frustration at his being unable to convey his feelings in words.

However, the EA brought out a side of him that was really surprising. I snooped and read his emails to her, and his journal, was so shocked with how he was able to express his emotions to her, especially in his musings. I think t was that part that hurt a lot - but again, I have read from many of you here that A's happen to easily and without the "strings" that a real relationship has that most people in A's feel their emotions so much more deeply.

Anyway, right now, its all quiet, and I haven't been posting coz I have just been enjoying not having to deal with emotional cycles for once.

Thats it for now, hope it wasn't too boring!

[angel61]

By the way, to all my friends, I've got some news.....

First of all: So OW did accept the job offer from H's company to keep working with them. She accepted late April, and I learned this through the grapevine, not through H.

Early May, I learned that OW is in a relationship, and that it seemed serious. She went on a vacation with the guy. Then I heard that she was engaged. I think I posted this already.

Apparently, H never knew this. He went to OW's country in Mid-may and learned about it. He did not tell me anything but came back looking depressed. It affected me too... but I just tried my best to let it go, althugh I did act out for a bit.

We then left for our vacation. H was really nice to me, paying attention to me, asking me to walk with him, texting me long messages about what he was doing during the part of our vacation where he was hunting with his buddies and I elected to stay in the city. I enjoyed it immensely. We had a few arguments but they were quickly resolved.

I further learned that apparently, OW is not doing good at her job (always absent, unreliable) and that H is now thinking of letting her go as he is increasingly getting irritated with her lack of a good work ethic (always knew she was unreliable, even other people said so, including her mentor during her post-doc days. At that time, H defended her so much, and even used to say that she is a workaholic!)

Oh well, I hope that he is finally letting go of those rose colored glasses.

[Accuray]

Thanks Angel, we certainly do have some parallels, I posted a summary too.

We started as friends, and our R developed along the way until we got married. No goo-goo eyes for us, no mushy stuff.

You didn't have goo-goo eyes either? I was definitely the romantic between the two of us, and I did feel "in love". I think I knew at the time she didn't feel as strongly but I ignored that.

Ultimately, he told me that he could not leave – he could not throw away our life together, and he could not hurt our D. Problem was, he did not feel anything for me. He did not know how we could exist that way. He told me that he feels he made a mistake in us getting married, that he married his best friend and that our foundation was not strong enough.

That must be very painful to hear. My W has not gone that far, she says that we are incompatible, it's more a "grown apart" argument than it was a mistake in the first place, although maybe she feels that way too. I don't think she's completely honest with me about what she thinks, I think it would be better if she were.

WE decided to go to Retrouvaille. It was a turning point, and I thought that things would be good after that. We started to ML again, and he said that he wanted to make the decision to love and commit to our M.

I don't think I could ever get her there -- in your opinion is it worth extraordinary effort to make it happen? It sounds like to helped in the moment, but that it didn't have a long-lasting impact.

However, that’s when I started feeling the same way as you are now. Although my H said he was determined to stay, he did not seem to be doing the work. I pushed, and he withdrew. He felt he was back, but I did not.

That's a little different, W doesn't feel there is any work to be done. She claims to be happy, and just wants to be accepted as is, with no expectations of anything.

We went through tough times all over again, more because he felt that instead of moving forward, we were backsliding, and that I was expecting that he become what he was not all over again, just like pre-bomb. That was what pushed him away in the first place – his perception of me being unhappy in the marriage.

You were unhappy though, right? It wasn't just his perception. Although you were unhappy, that didn't mean you wanted a divorce, you wanted him to work with you on it.

The last coach I spoke to said that it's a basic project management problem, if you're not working toward then same goal, then you can never reach it together. He said that W is in the "love me unconditionally, accept me for who I am, and be responsible for your own needs" camp, whereas I am in the "let's have a passionate, intimate marriage, let's work together to meet each others' needs, including changing whatever we need to change" camp. Those are two different philosophies of marriage, and unless those are reconciled, we'll be spinning our wheels.

The coach also said that W's view on this is flawed, and that she doesn't see the potential. He said that when you get married, you grant your spouse the exclusive right to meet some of your needs, including sex, affection, intimate conversation, etc. If they won't provide those things for you, you can't take care of that elsewhere and still remain true to your vows, so they're putting you in a no-win situation. He also said that improving the marriage is squarely in the reluctant spouse's best interest -- their happiness will ALSO be enhanced if you make things better, not just yours. If it looks like a tradeoff to them, they're not looking at it the right way.

Another interesting analogy he used: he said that pretend you and your spouse are athletes, but whatever you do impacts your spouse's body, and whatever he does impacts yours. If you eat really well, exercise, etc., it makes his body feel great. If he eats junk food and lays on the couch, it makes your body feel badly. He said that marriage is like this in many ways. The fact that he makes you feel badly makes you work extra hard to get back into shape, but the whole time that's just making him feel better and better, so he doesn't see the downside of his diet and lack of exercise, so he keeps doing what he's doing and you feel worse and worse. Marriage is very symbiotic in that way.

Now from your husband's perspective, he probably views you as insatiable, that nothing he does will be enough, that he will always fall short, that if he responds to one request, another will just follow it and he'll never get to the end of it. That makes someone feel very trapped and "unsafe", because they can never succeed.

The only suggestion I've gotten for how to deal with this is that you need to convince your spouse to try, and you need to find some little thing that doesn't represent a sacrifice for him, but would provide total satisfaction for you. If you can find that one little behavior change, you'll get a taste of success and find something to build on -- I haven't found that yet.

The rest of the story you will see here in piecing….. and this is where you will see my effort at self evaluaton, all this discussions about boundaries, tough love, etc. which I feel have merit but which I am not ready to implement as I still see changes happening in our sitch without me having to stir the pot.

Yes, I don't really think it's an issue of tough love and boundaries, because our spouses are not being willfully disrespectful or taking advantage of us. We're caught in a cycle where our spouse feels oppressed by the weight of our unmet expectations. The oppression inhibits any action on their behalf, which makes our situation feel even worse to us, we walk around with critical needs unmet. We can't hide this, and the fact that our spouse sees it makes them feel like a failure and keeps us trapped. I don't see how either boundaries or tough love are an answer to that.

I think really it comes down to motivation -- our spouses need to be motivated to "want to work". That motivation either comes from feeling in love with us, or from seeing some tangible way forward where their own situation is improved. I don't think either boundaries or tough love will provide that motivation. Personally I'm focusing on getting to the root of W's complex relationship needs and trying to be the best provider in meeting them.

I feel like my H is an emotionally unavailable person. Even with his family and friends. he knows this and even during our Retrouvaille sessions expressed his frustration at his being unable to convey his feelings in words.

Same thing with my W, when we started piecing I was writing her long e-mails that I'd spend half an hour on. She'd send me back two sentences and say that it took her an hour when she replied at all. I do question if there is really such a thing as an emotionally unavailable person however, I think they just need a certain set of conditions to draw them out, and our personality doesn't naturally provide for that.

However, the EA brought out a side of him that was really surprising. I snooped and read his emails to her, and his journal, was so shocked with how he was able to express his emotions to her, especially in his musings. I think t was that part that hurt a lot

Yes! Same thing, so many assumptions I had about what W was and was not capable of were violated by reading her affair correspondence -- I was like "who is this person?" I want that affection! I can't have it though, she can't provide that to me (at least not yet). MC told me that I should not believe for a minute that W was capable of sustaining what she was putting out there in the A, he said that it's a fantasy-land and none of the usual rules apply.

I do think that seeing the affection, emotion, openness and honesty, and the willingness to connect with OM in a way she never would with me will haunt me forever in this relationship, it's so painful to see that the potential is there, locked away, and that you have no means to tap into it despite your best efforts, so very very painful. It feels like the worst kind of failure, because I would LOVE for her to live with that kind of happiness forever.

Thats it for now, hope it wasn't too boring!

Not boring at all, you're a kindred soul.

Accuray

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

Yes, isn't it interesting how the PEA chemicals and infatuation wear off, and they see the OW as she is, finally, instead of the projections they imposed on her....

As far as the "emotion, openness, honesty" go, I found that although my H was much more open and emotional in his EA, it was largely because the MLCer is driven by pure emotions, like a teenager. Since going through the MLC he is more open and straightforward with me, but the intensity (which was really caused by everything being about him) is not over-the-top.

I'm curious about the subtle changes you see going on in your dynamic? Also, with regard to boundaries, I don't see much point in putting ultimatums on a man who is still in depression, as I think your H is; however, I do believe this is the time to be exploring what YOUR boundaries are, what you can/can't live with in a M.

Have you ever gone through the exercise of completely imagining your life without H? It took me a long time to get to the place where I could even do that, but once I was ready, it was so liberating to know that I could be fine without him if necessary. I changed, even my dreams changed, and I think he noticed that I behaved differently once I truly knew I didn't NEED him to be happy.

Glad to see you doing so well, and out of the emotional cycling!

[Cadet]

Angel61

Sounds like your amusement ride keeps going up and down.
I wish it were so easy that the affair ends and the crisis is over.
Does not work that way IMHO.
He still has issues to work through.
I sent you a message but I am not sure you will read it.
DB Accuray has laid out some interesting thoughts.
I think that until your husband looks inside that the ride is not going to end.

Thanks for being a member of this forum!

[notsosunny]

Accuray.......U should write a book....( maybe U have ) You speak (type) so elegantly, and with such knowledge. Piecing.....is hard work...something I work on every day ( on myself ) Sometimes my hubby is clueless. lol

I realized early on in our marriage that I could NOT change him but as they say in alanon...U cant change another person...you can change yourself and only yourself and maybe your spouse will react to "YOUR" changes.

My hubby.....didnt think he had a proble quote unquote I was the one with the "problems"....I have a fav note book in front of me that says......KEEP Calm & SMILE ON....lol
It helps and I journal in it everyday.

Peace

Cindy LOu

[notsosunny]

Sorry for the highjack angel.

[angel61]

No problem NSS. Hijack all you want! Accuray does write so elegantly.

Accuray, thank you for all your input. I feel that your analysis is so spot on.

I have always wondered about how our personality affects how others perceive us. Not for one moment do I believe that my H does not care for me; just seeing his pain at hurting me is proof. When our spouses try their best to be there for us sexually, Accuray, just shows how much they value us.

But the expression of their love for us is not what we want.

I see this kind of reaction to me with my daughter, and even with our dog. My daughter is definitely more affectionate with my H, and pushed me away when I try. But she connects with me, opens her heart to me, sees me as more of a friend than her dad.

About Retrouvaille: It can only help, and not hurt. And even if it does not give you the effect you want, it will still change at least yourself, if not your spouse. I have also learned that I did not love my H too as he ought to be loved, and have made many changes within myself that ultimately can only be good. I urge you to go.

Cadet, when and where did you message me? I looked, even in the alt, and can't find it.

[Cadet]

Sent it to Angel61, think about that and you should be able to figure it out.
Sorry I can not say anymore.
I don't think I know you on the alt.
Sorry to be so cryptic but the rules here are very strict and I do not like to break the rules.
That amusement ride keeps going up and down.

[angel61]

Hi Cyrena,

To answer your questions: Yes, I have imagined life without H and I could do it, no problem. I actually like it when he is not around as he is controlling and I am a free spirit. I can get to indulge in my relaxed, artistic side, not look at the clock, and break rules I get a taste of that when H is away!!! PLus I am not financially dependent on him; We have the same qualifications (mine are actually better). Its not a problem of being able to do it, its really just my desire to keep our family together.

And I know H wants to keep the family together too.

The dynamic that is changing.... an example would be yesterday.

We were pleasantly chatting in the kitchen about work. He mentioned that their project is coming to a big turn - they will be implanting their first fully manufacturable prototype into patients in a couple of months, and so he was going to xOW's country next month to check out everything, then the surgeons in that country are traveling to the US for training, which he will be doing, then they all go back to xOW's country for the actual surgeries.

I questioned why he was going to have to go before the training, as he has people there to help him (xOW included, if she does her job, which she apparently is not too reliable for. There is another employee though who seems good). The way he explained to me what he needed to do seemed so simple (checking the patient's records). He could easily have that scanned!

He immediately asked me if I did not want him to travel. I got offended at his way of thinking. Granted, I would prefer him not to travel if there was a way around it.

When I got offended, and told him that he did not give me the benefit of the doubt but immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was trying to prevent him from traveling, he quickly turned around and apologized for being negative.

He said that old habits dies hard, and the explained that he had to check the patients as well to make sure that they were screened properly and that everything was ready to go by the time the surgeons got back and were ready tp go. Apparently, an important US surgeon is also going to be part of the team and of course, they want to impress him.

He brought up the fact that he has been trying really hard to e positive about us for the past few weeks and asked if I had noticed. I said actually yes, and thanked him for it, and also apologized for reacting right away.

So that is what is changing now - and what I am seeing as efforts on his part to keep everything smooth.

I don't know if keeping our R smooth and happy will motivate him in the end to stay and maybe even lern to love me, or bring back some of the 'in love" feelings, as Accuray, you have stated.

I hope so.