Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out . . .
And how did you respond?
Starsky
I'm afraid I was rather sarcastic and said I didn't think much to the strength of his undying love if he can do what he's done - probably wrong, I know but just so tired of hearing rubbish!
So in other words, you were unclear about what was required for him to come back . . .
My advice, if this moment (or one similar to it) presents itself again:
1. Ask "Are you asking me what it's going to take for you to come back and work on the marriage?" (CLARITY)
2. Say "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore. I'll have to think about that -- let's talk more next week." (LET HIM KNOW THAT HE DOES NOT CONTROL THE WHOLE THING HERE, and that YOU aren't sure what you want any more. You want him to think "Oh no, maybe I pushed her too far this time ...")
Most people blow it by a lack of CLARITY and BOUNDARIES, and by failing to perceive the moments when you have the most leverage. Response #1 will help you separate if it's just a drunken dial/b.s. or if he's serious, and #2 will help you take your power back.
There are really only two ways you can approach this, in my opinion:
1. GET PROOF; or
2. ASSUME HE IS LYING.
Blindly assuming he's telling the TRUTH -- in light of what you've already discovered -- would be naive, and asking HIM to be honest with you is fruitless. Remember, "ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD."
Hmmmm, I feel so dumb that I can't get my head around this - maybe it's because I'm an honest person! But I think you're right, I would be naive to believe him - but what kind of person does that make him if he's prepared to let me live such a lie!?!?!?
At this point, it is up to HIM to satisfactorily prove to YOU that he's serious about working on the marriage with you, WITHOUT a third person involved.
I have said this to him that it is down to h im to prove he is telling the truth - he pulls a pained face and says it is impossible to prove - oh dear maybe should have thought of that before deleting all her numbers! Not that it's my place to think of how he can prove things but I have been trying to think of a way and I can't think of one.
What are your dealbreakers? Some suggestions might be that he sends OW a no-contact letter, agrees to full transparency with you, and agrees to attend marriage counseling with you, but whatever they are, it needs to be YOUR list.
He is already trying to be totally transparent - I have his phone at the moment and when he went out to fix the car earlier he sent me a picture of the car in the garage to prove where he was - it all seems so crazy. He says he doesn't know where she lives or her number to be able to send a no contact letter and we have already been here before - for the last 4 years he has been swearing to me that he hasn't spoken to her since March 07!!! - staring me straight in the face and swearing he hasn't heard from her
You're in a good position, with him claiming to want to work on the marriage. But THIS IS THE TIME when you have your maximum opportunity to ask for what you need.
You're right - just need to work out what it is I need - apart from my memory erasing.
Oops! sorry, that didn't work did it - I was trying to reply to each of your quotes but it is all jumbled in one. My replies to your points are in bold below:
"Inpain,
There are really only two ways you can approach this, in my opinion:
1. GET PROOF; or
2. ASSUME HE IS LYING.
Blindly assuming he's telling the TRUTH -- in light of what you've already discovered -- would be naive, and asking HIM to be honest with you is fruitless. Remember, "ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD.""
Hmmmm, I feel so dumb that I can't get my head around this - maybe it's because I'm an honest person! But I think you're right, I would be naive to believe him - but what kind of person does that make him if he's prepared to let me live such a lie!?!?!?
"At this point, it is up to HIM to satisfactorily prove to YOU that he's serious about working on the marriage with you, WITHOUT a third person involved."
I have said this to him that it is down to h im to prove he is telling the truth - he pulls a pained face and says it is impossible to prove - oh dear maybe should have thought of that before deleting all her numbers! Not that it's my place to think of how he can prove things but I have been trying to think of a way and I can't think of one.
"What are your dealbreakers? Some suggestions might be that he sends OW a no-contact letter, agrees to full transparency with you, and agrees to attend marriage counseling with you, but whatever they are, it needs to be YOUR list."
He is already trying to be totally transparent - I have his phone at the moment and when he went out to fix the car earlier he sent me a picture of the car in the garage to prove where he was - it all seems so crazy. He says he doesn't know where she lives or her number to be able to send a no contact letter and we have already been here before - for the last 4 years he has been swearing to me that he hasn't spoken to her since March 07!!! - staring me straight in the face and swearing he hasn't heard from her
"You're in a good position, with him claiming to want to work on the marriage. But THIS IS THE TIME when you have your maximum opportunity to ask for what you need. " You're right - just need to work out what it is I need - apart from my memory erasing.
Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out . . .
And how did you respond?
Starsky
I'm afraid I was rather sarcastic and said I didn't think much to the strength of his undying love if he can do what he's done - probably wrong, I know but just so tired of hearing rubbish!
So in other words, you were unclear about what was required for him to come back . . .
My advice, if this moment (or one similar to it) presents itself again:
1. Ask "Are you asking me what it's going to take for you to come back and work on the marriage?" (CLARITY)
2. Say "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore. I'll have to think about that -- let's talk more next week." (LET HIM KNOW THAT HE DOES NOT CONTROL THE WHOLE THING HERE, and that YOU aren't sure what you want any more. You want him to think "Oh no, maybe I pushed her too far this time ...")
Most people blow it by a lack of CLARITY and BOUNDARIES, and by failing to perceive the moments when you have the most leverage. Response #1 will help you separate if it's just a drunken dial/b.s. or if he's serious, and #2 will help you take your power back.
Starsky
Wow! thanks for those - love #2! Yes, I think this is where I failed last time when he returned from being a WAS - I think I was far too easy on him because I was just so glad he came home!
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and I am feeling so confused.
He's the one who's had an EA/PA but is declaring overwhelming love for me and wants us to stay together - I am the one deciding if I want to try or leave/throw him out - does that make me the WAS????? I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all - at the moment I am vascillating between not wanting to break up my family and throwing him out because I don't think I'll trust him again.
I can't imagine wanting any kind of P relationship ever again because of the images in my head of him with OW - is this normal? Can it be overcome, I don't understand how.
He is being annoylingly nice and over the top to the extent of asking if my cups of tea he makes are OK and cooked a nice meal last night - doesn't he get it?? I don't want pampering I want truth and honesty!!
Inpain, I'm sorry you're back here too. i don't have any useful advice ... I would have his balls on a plate but that is DEF the angry reaction and not a long term sensible one. I think getting away from him, getting some space will do you the power of good.
I can imagine this being awful - he's probably cheated in some way, yet denies it then seems to want to brush it all under the carpet. If he's serious about wanting your M to work, how about he fix up some MC? THAT might be a good sign.
Bomb (ILYBINILWY, don't want to be married)Sept05 Seperated Sept/Oct 05 Oct 06 - H recomitted July 11 - I am now a WAW.
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and I am feeling so confused.
Totally natural for you to feel this way. You are still reeling.
He's the one who's had an EA/PA but is declaring overwhelming love for me and wants us to stay together -
That's GREAT...no matter what else happens this is good news. Would you prefer he profess that "she is the one" and that the marriage to you was a fraud? Be careful what you wish for.
No matter what happened between them, he is being clear and positive, at least with his words. That's more than many get around here...
I am the one deciding if I want to try or leave/throw him out - does that make me the WAS????? It makes you the LBS with some leverage...use it wisely. Nothing punitive.
Be careful you find that fine line between pride and self respect, and the line between healthy boundary setting, and anger. Don't let anger dictate your actions.
Don't let anger/pride with a deeply wounded ego, run your life or your children's lives.
he is SAYING what he needs to say as far as wanting the m to work...that's a start.
I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all - at the moment I am vascillating between not wanting to break up my family and throwing him out because I don't think I'll trust him again. Yep...it's called being conflicted. Which makes the option #2 totally an honest one. you need time. What kind of a father is he?
I can't imagine wanting any kind of P relationship ever again because of the images in my head of him with OW - is this normal? Can it be overcome, I don't understand how.
Yes, and yes. Many marriages survive affairs. There are books out there that have helped many. One is called "After the Affair" but I haven't read it myself.
I just know that some claim it helped them move on. I definitely know people here and in my real life who survived affairs, & they did move on, eventually to be happy again.
BUT I also grew up with a neighbor wife who never let her husband (or the world) know that he'd failed her & their kids years earlier, with an affair, and she was one very bitter woman.
Don't become her. That's probably the worst choice. Every daughter of hers is screwy about men/marriage now, 25 years later.
Maybe Your marriage could end up becoming a legacy for your children and theirs, one of commitment and forgiveness and redemption...
He is being annoylingly nice and over the top to the extent of asking if my cups of tea he makes are OK and cooked a nice meal last night - doesn't he get it?? I don't want pampering I want truth and honesty!!
Do you truly NEED to know all the details? Think about that long & hard before you answer.
See, for ME, I think knowing he wants to work on the marriage is essential, and it will mean at some point
IF YOU ARE TO RECONCILEat least 2 things must happen: YOU WILL HAVE TO LET GO OF WHATEVER DID HAPPEN...
AND
YOU AND HE
WILL HAVE TO KNOW YOU WON'T THROW THIS IN HIS FACE
OR HOLD IT OVER HIS HEAD THE REST OF YOUR LIVES...
So, what if you got honesty/fidelity from him, from this day forward?
Then your challenge would be to forgive...
I didn't see forgiveness growing up, but I learned how to do it
and it includes living in the present.
But for now, you are in a place where maybe you
can work on just being able to be around him without making yourself crazy.
Put a STOP SIGN in your head when thoughts of him and OW come into your head...
and figure out what else you'll need if you are ever to trust him again, and then
know that forgiveness IS possible, (it does NOT mean you condone whatever the hell did happen with him) and it's freeing for YOU
(even if you don't reconcile, letting go of what happened will help YOU not become consumed by the anger you feel...)
When I realized how my anger was making ME NOT Present for my kids...
and my anger was hurting ME & ruining MY LIFE & the kids, way more than h's which should not have mattered at all but I was so mad I wanted to know he was in pain too... and in hindsight that was simply my pride and anger hurting ME for longer....
so I began working on it. Took awhile.
I had to stop assessing his pain as a factor in my healing...as in "is HE suffering enough??" etc HIS reaction/happiness is NOT my index for how well I am doing. My happiness is up to me alone.
It's a process. But first, forgiving is a choice and then you have to make it again & again...(on a much smaller level though, we ALL have to do that). I HIGHLY recommend calling a DB coach and getting a phone session. They're not cheap, but neither is divorce.
Though I had a very good mc who was "solution based"
(not so much into our personal histories or their previous childhood issues like some therapists-----THAT stuff has a place, but this site and approach is about doing what helps NOW)
and it was the single most valuable thing for our m that I did.
Good luck, sorry you are here but it's the best place to be for a lousy reason...
Keep posting. It helps.
((HUGS))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Struggling with forgiveness myself. It's going to take a little time. If he's really intent on saving the R, You have to at least let him know, you need some time.
I cannot even touch my XW right now. Even though we're cordial and civil and all that crap, when she enters my personal space, I find myself having to withdraw. I am open to the possibility that someday we could get back together or perhaps never. I just know that right now I'm not ready.
You at least are dealing with someone who wants to save things. I had to deal with a WAW who cheated and then divorced me. Listen to 25; you have a huge head start on most of us.
Ask yourself, what do you really want? Vengeance? Forgiveness? and not impossible things like wanting none of this to have ever happened. How important is the M? Can you imagine yourself not married?
I have found myself imagining how I would react if months or years from now XW comes to me and says the grass wasn't greener on the other side of D. Today, certainly I'd say I'm not ready. But in time - who knows? Today I still wrestle with thoughts of "don't get mad, get even."
One thing I do advise - pray for forgiveness, not to be forgiven, that we do anyway, no - pray for the ability and power to forgive - because trust me, you and I, we don't have enough of that right now.
Prayers Pickle
Me 53 XW 50 M 18 Years +2 S14 D19 Bomb 10-24-10 Served 1-27-11 Mediate 4-21-11 Civil D Final 6-2-11 No church anullment "A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and I am feeling so confused.
He's the one who's had an EA/PA but is declaring overwhelming love for me and wants us to stay together - I am the one deciding if I want to try or leave/throw him out - does that make me the WAS????? I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all . . .
Other than showing him an overall spirit of compassion, grace and FORGIVENESS, he should be doing all of the heavy relationship lifting right now. YOU display the attitude; let HIM do the actual WORK.
This will change, if he demonstrates to you that he's serious, and you guys get some good counseling -- preferably from a MC/FT who specializes in infidelity. It will be truly "50/50" at that point, and you will have a LOT you will have to do.
I just don't think you're there yet, and if you let him back in too easily, you'll be making a huge mistake, IMHO.
I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all - at the moment I am vascillating between not wanting to break up my family and throwing him out because I don't think I'll trust him again.
IP,
There is a HUGE chasm in between these two extremes, and it is in this "middle ground" where true DBing takes place.
I'll give you a hint: it goes something like "I don't want to break up my family, either, but nor am I going to subject us any longer to my husband's bad behavior. If I'm going to let him back this time, it will only be with some healthy boundaries in place."
I'm afraid I was rather sarcastic and said I didn't think much to the strength of his undying love if he can do what he's done - probably wrong, I know but just so tired of hearing rubbish!
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and I am feeling so confused.