Harrier

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Hey man, just hoping all is well with you and yours.

[Harrier]

Jack,

I need your thoughts/advice man.

The update.

Things are so much better than before, BUT they aren't great. I'm pretty sad about it really.

I guess you think, "if we could just get some traction everything would fall into place." Well it hasn't. don't get me wrong, things are much much better. But this past week has been kinda rough. Last Tuesday my wife and I had a kind a big talk. Basically it boiled down to my wife wondering if I felt like something was missing from our marriage and I didn't want to be married. So I started my craziness last year because I didn't have the balls to split. (think WAH or MLC)

While I don't 100% agree with this, I did acknowledge that I wasn't happy with things. We talked and talk and she said she wanted me to think about what was missing in our marriage.

I did for a few days and on Saturday another big talk. Basically, I felt like that she didn't really need me anymore after our second son was born. I don't know if she quite believed that, but I really feel like we both took our relationship for granted. I also got the feeling (I know, I know) that she thinks I might ahve cheated on her and that's what drove things.

We also talked about the current state of the M. I told her the biggies were time together and affection. I also said that I feel like something is missing. A spark, a connection, intimacy whatever you want to call it. She agree and said that she felt like something was missing too and that's why the physical affection doesn't seem natural to her or wasn't as much. We both had no real answers on what it means and where to go from here. We ended up cutting the convo short because it was getting late.

So yesterday was fine, actually really nice. I mean I started to feel hope that we might get back. Last night, I went out. I had dinner with a mutual friend and I went to a concert. I felt a lot better. When I got home, I look at my wifes's phone (she was having some issues with it)

She had texted the friend I had dinner with. The friend, who kinda knows what's going on, said that I seemed to be in a much better place. My wife then said a couple of things to the friend. 1) She doesn't think we will ever get back to where we were & 2) things aren't great now.

The friend said something like "Well thats good because you can build a better relationship." My wife said back "I hope, but I don't know really. We are both still reeling from the last year." Seemed to be overall pessimistic.

I was crushed. I mean my wife said at times during our convo that she didn't know if we could get "it" back and we'd have to decide what to do if we couldn't. Meaning separate. She didn't know how long she wanted to wait. But then it comes back to the kids. I want her to be optimistic about us, but I just don't see it.
Part of me is also scared as what if she can't give me what I need.

We are so burned out on the subject. Of course, if we are burned out, she wants to retreat and not be intimate and not have sex. That is no way to get any spark back.

I was so depressed about it this morning, I don't know what to do. I guess we will talk tonight too

[Navyguy]

I'll second that.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Harrier,

My advice is that this now is the plodding forward time. Force yourself to be opptimistic, put yourself on a short leash.

Piecing is harder than any other aspect of DBing to me, it was like walking a tighrope across the Grand Canyon with 40 mph cross winds and snipers.

The best advice I can give you is to realize your goal and roll with the punches as best you can.

You saw the texts and it crushed you.
You relayed the texts and it had the opposite effect on me.
Here is why:

Her friend noticed a change in you; a good one.

Recall most friends and family members are going to be the first ones to push a person OUT of a relationship they think is bad.

Your wife said, "I hope..."

Not: "No."

But that she hopes.

I see that as a postive. We hope for things we want.

It is hard hard work man. Your wife might think this is all fluffy bunnies and unicorns and self help money making the universe wants you to be happy and you'll get what you imagine stuff...

It's not.

Change the pattern and cycle a bit.

We as people tend NOT to want to 'award' those we feel are not meeting our expectations. Withholding 'good' from them for bad behaviour. I don't know if you are, I'm only going by myself and trends. We withdraw when we feel hurt or unappreciated. Change that. Stop withdrawing. Shrug it off, look at the long term not the short term. Let the little hurts slide off of you, as hard as it is. Return indifference with a smile and a cup of coffee.

That 'spark' it is not a switch, not after the first couple of years. Complacentcy is the death of a marriage, because it kills that spark.

It takes a long while of small things and consistent effort and attitude on your part...on my part to have brought it back to my marriage. My wife looks at me the way she used to, not all the time, our lips aren't chapped from suckking face for 2 hours.

But it is there.

As an aside. For me this trip started...about 5 1/2 - 6 years ago.
My wife told me she stopped kissing and hugging me because I made it seem like I expected sex when she did.
(I did what most people do and I got defensive, instead of actually listening to her concerns)
I told her that I wouldn't if we had more sex.

Can you see how f-ed up that is?
2 complaints but no solution offered. Well not in a good way.
Her solution was no more kissing and hugging and mine was more sex. Counter productive. Impasse.

I started hugging, kissing and touching her without any expectations. I kept my hands above the waist.

My wife has a low sex drive.
I have a higher one.
Nothing wrong with her and nothing wrong with me, just different.

The other night very recently in fact. After going to bed early but staying up late, I asked her what I was doing? Why was she so accomodating? Why was she saying yes so often lately?

Her reply.

"Because your asking."

That blew me away. Still does. Cause that was a: I could of have a V8 moment.

It took a long time to get there, but I got so accustomed to doing things a certain way, a way that worked for me and her, I forgot I could change things up as well and see how it went.

We are so burned out on the subject. Of course, if we are burned out, she wants to retreat and not be intimate and not have sex. That is no way to get any spark back.

I was so depressed about it this morning, I don't know what to do. I guess we will talk tonight too

Do you need to talk about it?
If you're both burned out about it is it a good idea?

You're not going to talk her into having sex, at least it is unlikely that she is going to be the excited woman you want in bed if you do.

I recommend listening to her concerns, touch her without expectation.

Yes you want what you want, and I have been there. There is hope. For me I got what I wanted by giving her what she wanted. Maybe not as quickly as I wanted it...but I got an eager and excited partner from being patient.


Harrier I'm gone for the next 5 days so my silence is just me going clam digging with my family.

[Harrier]

Thanks Jack.

We did talk about I some more. It was very painful talk at times, but from an outsider it was positive. With me as an insider, I tend to focus on whats there now.

Like she said a small part of her still doesn't want to try. That part was 80% of her 7 months ago. Lesson - it's shrinking.

She said she's optimistic that we can get there.

Today at lunch I had to go to her office to pick something up. when I first saw her she gave me one of the looks like she used to.

BTW the concert I went to was Social D. Didn't play "I was wrong."

I will now slink back into my hovel. You sure you don't want a career switch, you have a GIFT for this.

P.S. I hope clam digging is fun.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Social D; funny they didn't play that...maybe a 'nudge' inside joke.

Clamming was awesome, still here in fact. Just got done frying up a bunch, my best friend fried up a ton, and I made Rhode Island clam fritters...ahhh memories of a childhood and vacation with my parents.

Harrier you have a lot of good going on, I know at times in the middle of it that it is hard to see, really hard. When it happened to me, I would remind myself to look BACK over time a month or two to see the improvement. Something you did without any insight from me. : )

Thank you for the idea of a carreer change it is something I have been considering more and more lately.

I too at one point in time had a problem with how I thought the board was being run. : ) Harrier, while I am not suggesting your wife is in an MLC, far from it, you can post there, it is the area I can actually moderate. Barring that, Anytime you need help you can contact me here...or anyone as I have not cornered the market on good advice, and again...you can see for yourself the similarities in my first post. All of it is still true. ; )

[gutwrenching]

Harrier - I don't know anything bout your sitch other than what is here.

But this is not the time to lose hope, it is the time to lead and take the little bit of momentum you have from at least getting the issues out in the open. Now do something about it. Little things to try to re-ignite that spark.

Have you considered Retrouville or counseling? Get an experienced third part involved...

[Harrier]

Harrier - I don't know anything bout your sitch other than what is here.

But this is not the time to lose hope, it is the time to lead and take the little bit of momentum you have from at least getting the issues out in the open. Now do something about it. Little things to try to re-ignite that spark.

Have you considered Retrouville or counseling? Get an experienced third part involved...

We went to counseling for 4 months Dec- March. Our therapist then told us we didn't need him. He was wrong as my tale of woe continues.

[Harrier]

Crap. This weekend the house of cards fell. We are back to talking about separating/divorce again. I can't friggin' believe we are here again. And yes it's 100% my fault. I also wonder if the events of the last few weeks have taken their toll on both of us

Friday night - my W tells me that she' thinking that we could have ML on Saturday. Well I was quite please as this was a good step forward.

Saturday - very good day. My son had a friend over and they played. We went out to a nice dinner and I really started to feel connected to my Wife again. I'm sure she felt the same. All I kept saying to myself is Don't mess this up.

She goes to put our son to bed. So I'm messing around on my computer. For some unknown reason, I decide to check the cell phone records. I see that she sent one text the guy she had an EA with at 8:24 that morning. Inside, I kinda was crushed and flipped out a little. I try to talk myself down a little and tell myself it was work related. She texts me to come upstairs. frankly, it was not very good. She wasn't that into it and it felt awkward especially since I just found out about the text. (ave teh the 2x4s, I'm beating myself up pretty badly)

So after, I get the feeling she want me to leave. So I give her a little hug and then let her be.

After I put our son to bed, I go down stairs to hang out. She comes downstairs and says that she knows ML wasn't great but she wanted to take it slow without jumping into it. She then goes to bed. I start thinking about the text, then my mind wanders to all sorts of crap. I start to get really mad like "why the heck does she need to text this guy at 8 in the morning on a Saturday, especially when she told me he's on a fishing trip."

So I get read to go to bed and the text is still on my mind. so then I get the idea that I'm going to try get her phone from the night stand and read the text to l can get some peace of mind....so I can get some peace of mind. Stupid, stupid stupid.

You can probably guess what happens. She catches me before I even get to the phone. We talk/fight about it for a little bit and one point she said something like maybe it just won't work. But she said she wants to talk the next day to see how things are.

Sunday -- after lunch we sit down to talk. I said maybe you are right about us not working or me wanting out because I keep sabotaging things. We both kinda come around to the idea that divorce is probably too extreme of a reaction. Then she talks about separation and I kinda flip out on her. She said maybe it will give us time to see how important we are to each other, when that person is gone. I say, I think it's just a step toward divorce. She says it will only be if I have that attitude.
We talk some more and it get's kinda nasty I'm harping on her EA thing and then at one point she says "you've convinced me that we should just go straight to divorce." Of course I flip out even more. Then she tells me that even if we get divorced we will always have a relationship an she would want me to see the kids every day and spend weekends together. She said I'm such a big part of her life that she simple cannot imagine me not in it. She then tells me that a divorce is just a piece of paper that doesn't define our relationship from that point. I then say the if we are divorced we are free to pursue other relationships and I can't imagine her being with another guy. She said "you think I'm thrilled about the idea of another woman try to be mommy to N and J."

We both kinda agree that we are too emotional now to make any decision and we should let things settle out over the next week or so. I am seeing our marriage counselor by myself on June 2. I said I want to wait on that. She said, "that's okay, but know that Separation is still what I'm thinking about. Don't pretend this didn't happen." I say that I'm confused about what this means and how we interact. She said nothing will change. She will still give me some physical affection, still try to spend time but that sex will be off the table at least until my appt with the MC. I say that I want to try some marriage building exercises. She agrees but not until after the MC.

I was very emotional, crying etc. I told her that I hate being the emotional one because I feel it makes me look weak. She said that it didn't but that one of us has to be emotional.

I spent a lot of the night crying /sobbing thinking about a future without her. Of course, I watched a romantic movie about a boy who finds his soulmate in the second grade and their story as they grow up.

Before bed she comes to me and gives me a hug and says, "It will be okay." and a kiss then another hug. We are still sleeping in the same bed.

At this point,I really think this is my last shot . Things have improved but just not enough for her. I mean last year when this happened, I went to her and grilled her about an early morning text. This time I didn't fly off the handle immediately. But in the nd it doesn't really matter what I did. I betrayed her trust

I don't know where she is, but I don't want talk to her about it either. This morning as we were leaving she stopped me and said "let me give you a hug." I don't know if it was a pity hug or not.

A few other things. For some reason, I had been keeping copes of the emails between my W and the OM. I don't know why. Maybe I thought if we got a D, I could try to ruin his family. I read them from time to time, as painful as they were. Today, I finally shredded them. I think that by holding onto them, I was holding onto their EA even though it is over. (They still work together minimally)

It's hard for me to grapple with what has happened. I mean nothing fits. When I think about my W and our history, I remember a lot of the positive and so does she. In fact the only one that has re-written our history is me. We do seem to still care for each other. We do a lot of little small things for eachother. She says she loves me a lot and can't imagine me not being in her life (now this may be typical spouse BS, but my W isn't the time to say it unless she 100% means it.)

When I think of it my W has never brought up divorce first (since that day in November). If anyone brings it ups it's me.

i think that with the sabotaging, the re-writing history, the bring up the D word too loosely, the not respecting her. I have mad it hard for her to move on as a married couple. Maybe my message are starting to sink in.

Yet, I cannot imagine my life with out her or even not having her around all the time. I don't even see any other women who compare. Not that I put her on a pedestal she is human, I se that. But I love and accept her warts and all.

I know what I have to do, but I hope it's not too late.

P.S for the love of God can't I not be moderated anymore.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Well I sent in my request to have you unmoderated.

Just try to not rock the boat with other powers that be. ; )

For me, I'd deffinately stop bringing up 'divorce' in any discussion or fight. It's not a game winning word, its a game ending word.

Also, it seems to me, and I used to have this problem...maybe I still do, I know alot of people do, we bring up our fears when we 'fight' looking to have them not dissmissed, but...assuaged.

I said maybe you are right about us not working or me wanting out because I keep sabotaging things.

As an example, deep down in your shoes, I'd be hoping she'd be saying, "Oh no, we should be able to work this out; or you're not sabotaging things."

I also don't have any 2x4's for you man. You're a smart man, you know what you want, and I think you have a good grasp of what doesn't work in getting what you want.

Should you have looked at her phone?

...

Before sex? No.

Later? Why not? trust but verify. That should be part of piecing when infidelity occurs and both parties are working on being married.

That is the part that bothers me about your wife...

Isn't she on board with you guys working toward rebuilding your marriage? She is a psychiatrist...right? Or some sort of mind doctor. : ) Trying to be a little funny there.

There is a way to let her know how determinetal to earning your trust back her initiating contact, any contact with the OM is going to be to that process.

You know her best, when does she listen and heed you? Likely not when you guys are fighting. Fighting in my experience is just who yells loudest.

I have a great friend (FaithinAK) who passed along this advice to me, advice I love.

"Listen without defending, speak without offending."

As somone who had to learn how to trust again, you ARE going to look, you are going to verify, your trust is not misplaced. You are going to jump to conclusions, moreso if I 'discover' something disturbing on my own. I also told my wife that. I asked that she understand.

Of course, I watched a romantic movie about a boy who finds his soulmate in the second grade and their story as they grow up.

No 2x4's but...man why not hit your johnson with a hammer while your at it?

Then she tells me that even if we get divorced we will always have a relationship an she would want me to see the kids every day and spend weekends together. She said I'm such a big part of her life that she simple cannot imagine me not in it. She then tells me that a divorce is just a piece of paper that doesn't define our relationship from that point.

That right there...is not reality. That's a movie or a TV show.


Harrier, stop being your own worst enemy.

Is it too late?

No.

No man.

She cares about you.

When does she best respond to you?
How are you acting when she does?

If you guys are piecing, then there are some boundaries; you both have to set, and neither can cross. You (collective) break a boundary you break trust. Without trust...you have no relationship, not one you want to build on.

The emotional crying part?
Listen to your gut on that one, not saying it wrong, just saying your gut might have a better understanding of the situation in that aspect. Most people view tears as traps, even if they say they don't, they make people uncomfortable at the very least.