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Originally Posted By: GonnaGoBlind
...As far as she's let on, there was no sexual or physical abuse, but her mother was extremely emotionally abusive, and was a manipulative mean-drunk alcoholic. Her dad backed up anything her mom did/said without ever looking into the real story. So yes, there are issues lurking there.

...She feels like she is a failure to me, and a failure to the kids. This doesn't help any and makes it like walking on eggshells.

...I've suggested she try MB, but she won't have anything to do with that. I've explained the reason is not some sick perversion of mine, but rather as a way for her to get more comfortable with her sexuality. She's never touched herself other than for hygiene.


Wow, it sounds like your wife and mine may have almost been sisters in some respect.

One thing that has really helped my wife has been my working with her and our sex therapist to set clear boundaries on what it will take to keep me from divorcing my wife in terms of physical connection and a loving relationship.

However, the two things that she has said from her perspective, that made the most difference were my trying to show her love in her two primary languages of love almost every day and my making huge lifestyle changes through my GAL program.

She has said that her feeling loved for the first time in years allowed he to open up to the point that she could talk about our relationship and the lack of sex, including her feelings of sexual falure. She also said that seeing how quickly I was changing (loosing weight, getting in shape, improving my health) made her realize that she could change as well. Exercise is great for mild depression and for helping to get you to focus on the big picture.

We aren't totally out of the woods yet, but I pray we are pretty close. Our sex live has improved to a level that is more than acceptable, although my wife claims to have never MB in her life.

Good luck to you. I am a strong believer in Getting a Life and in the Five Languages of Love.


>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
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So sorry to hear about all you are going through! I can really feel for both of you and can put myself in both shoes.

I can only imagine for her the shame she must carry with her and I know it is hard but you must try to be patient with her. The things she has gone through have scarred her alot inside and the more she realizes that she is unhealthy the scarier it is for her and the worse she feels about herself.

If she is reluctant to alot of things you may recommend something for her to do for herself. There is a lady called Rori Raye that has a diva CD that I ordered to try to help myself to gain confidence and "love myself". She has to understand that the only thing YOU can do is be patient and encourage her but she needs to do the work on herself and it is possible to get there.

Please don't be critical or judgemental with her about whether she is doing anything about it or not, sometimes it is hard to even get up on some days when you are very depressed and being judged only makes it worse.

I was raised in a Christian home where sex was NOT discussed and I have had 1 partner - my husband so needless to say I have been pretty clueless on "finding your sexuality" and my husband just assumed I should be curious to know however, if you were raised a certain way or have baggage that makes you feel guilty or ashamed about it you may not want to talk about it and don't realize you have been stunting your own growth, thus hurting not only you but your household.

I would recommend you encourage her to go get some self-help books for her about self-esteem and also the Rori Raye CDS I mentioned above. If she learns that she should not be ashamed or embarrased about being a woman and to embrace and accept herself it will help her alot.

I have suffered from depression and abuse both physically and mentally and was diagnosed with ADHD last year. It is really hard to pick yourself up when you don't feel like you are any good and that you don't have anything to offer or the life is sucked out of you. It is a very vicious black hole that is hard to climb out of.

You should do things to help yourself with your depression because you most likely are depressed too, it is hard to be with someone who is depressed for a long period of time without going through at least a mild form of depression. I am not sure you want to ditch your flying if that is something that you love and makes you happy, that may just add to it if you don't have an outlet.

I have taken medication and therapy but I have found that the most useful ways out of depression are through doing things that you love to do and make you feel good about yourself - things you are proud of. Also, a relationship with God (if you are spiritual) is a big help.

Sounds like you both have things you need to do individually that should help alot with your interactions with each other. If you are each willing to take responsiblity in things and do what you need to on your end, two healthier happier people have a chance of connecting.

I have 3 kids of my own and I am not from a broken home and I believe that a healthy relationship between 2 people is the most rewarding thing you can give to your children and it sounds like you both love them and they need both of you. The fact you are seeking help deserves a huge pat on the back! Good luck to you both! Just my 2 cents... :o)


Me: 37
Husband: 39
Husband's Mid-life Crisis onsite: 2-3 years now
Children: ages 3, 7, & 14 1/2
"If I am here right now it's meant to be...now what?!"
"You are never to old to grow and change" :o)
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Originally Posted By: alice444
I would love some advice from people on this sex forum, as that's my husband's #1 complaint. ...

To the HD H's on here who have felt rejected by their wives-- at the point where you felt like your wife would never change, was there anything (and what was it) that she could've done to prove you wrong? In addition to frequency issues, was it that you wanted her to WANT sex as much as you did, i.e., her just having it and participating with a good attitude when you wanted to - and even maybe enjoying herself - wasn't enough- that you needed her to feel that same WANT that you did? In my case, I show my love many other ways besides sex, but it seems they don't count when the sex isn't as frequent as he wants- do you notice those other ways your wives show love, or do those things not matter at all to you if the sex isn't there?

...

thanks so much--

Jaime


Well... this is my first post.

Reading this makes me cry. We've been married for 15+ years with a daughter, age 7. I feel extremely committed but I'll be in your husband's state in weeks. I'm so sick of being rejected and not feeling wanted at all. I've said as much explicitly for a couple of years. I don't know how to get through. Understanding your situation more I thought might help in my case, but I can't follow the link you set up to "My Story" - it results in access denied.

She honestly seems to be into making things work (showing love), however, this means she does what she thinks I need, not what I think I need. On the other hand she absolutely refuses to tell me or give me hints as to what helps her feel loved. As a result, I do everything I can think of, yet I'm sure I'm not doing the *right* things. She hates to talk about our relationship, so we don't. We've seen a marriage counselor for a year, but it doesn't seem to help. She's agreed to try a new one, but won't follow up and seemingly has no desire to work on our marriage through any research/activity at all.

I've read through Love Languages so I get the idea we show and need in different ways. Her languages seem to be affirmation and acts of service. Mine are physical and quality time. I can tell her efforts towards me are focused on cooking more often (acts of service), and sitting on the other side of our sectional couch to be near me at night (quality time). The cooking is great, I love it and I've always been very thankful for it. However the quality time is different, she doesn't hesitate to remind me she's only near me cause I want her to be. She'd rather be reading her New Yorker... why she can't do both makes no sense to me.

She will not initiate sex at all, and it's been this way for years. At least she used to tell me to meet her upstairs, but that's the furthest extent of it, and even that hasn't happened in the last three years. Kissing/making out is non-existent over that time. We haven't kissed for more than three seconds and it pretty much feels like she's trying to get away.

Originally Posted By: alice444
I'm confused about how to work on this one w/out sex and also w/out doing things Michele recommends against like going out of my way to do little things for him, etc.- that's pursuing, right? How do I show him he's a priority without giving off "I'm trying desperately to win you back" vibes and if I can't give him sex? Any tips? He gives off strong vibes that kissing or hugging him isn't welcome at this time. Would it help a little bit to open the door if I did something non-threatening like touching his arm once in awhile?


I appreciate the actions you mention: hugging, kissing, touching an arm. I'd perceive any of that as a positive response. It would mean the world to me. The complete lack of pursuit is killing me emotionally, the effect is I want to reject her entirely. I just can't continue this way.

In the end I *think* I just want to feel wanted. Maybe it's just me. I worry some that I've been a doormat, but I don't think she perceives things that way.

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Originally Posted By: Apples

Well... this is my first post.

Reading this makes me cry. We've been married for 15+ years with a daughter, age 7. I feel extremely committed but I'll be in your husband's state in weeks. I'm so sick of being rejected and not feeling wanted at all. I've said as much explicitly for a couple of years. I don't know how to get through. Understanding your situation more I thought might help in my case, but I can't follow the link you set up to "My Story" - it results in access denied.


That is because I had it pulled when H found and read the entire thread. So, I don't post here for myself anymore, but follow friends along. I am so sorry for your situation.

Quote:

She honestly seems to be into making things work (showing love), however, this means she does what she thinks I need, not what I think I need. On the other hand she absolutely refuses to tell me or give me hints as to what helps her feel loved. As a result, I do everything I can think of, yet I'm sure I'm not doing the *right* things. She hates to talk about our relationship, so we don't. We've seen a marriage counselor for a year, but it doesn't seem to help. She's agreed to try a new one, but won't follow up and seemingly has no desire to work on our marriage through any research/activity at all.


Ok, well this stands out like a beacon to me- why wouldn't she tell you what she needs? That is mind boggling. And you're in the same sitch as my H: doing everything you can think of, but (possibly) all the wrong things. If she hates to discuss R, what the heck are you doing in MC- discussing the weather?? If it "isn't helping", you either have the wrong MC and/or you and she aren't doing the work it takes there and outside to make progress. My H thought you "just go" and the MC does it all for you- wrong. YOU do it all for you with them as a guide. It's sad you've committed all this time to it and feel like there's nothing to show for it. If she won't follow up, then you do it- by telling MC there's been no progress and/or finding a new MC. Take charge here- your future is at stake.

Quote:

I've read through Love Languages so I get the idea we show and need in different ways. Her languages seem to be affirmation and acts of service. Mine are physical and quality time. I can tell her efforts towards me are focused on cooking more often (acts of service), and sitting on the other side of our sectional couch to be near me at night (quality time). The cooking is great, I love it and I've always been very thankful for it. However the quality time is different, she doesn't hesitate to remind me she's only near me cause I want her to be. She'd rather be reading her New Yorker... why she can't do both makes no sense to me.


Wow. I would feel rejected too, if someone reminded me of this. It must feel like you're a chore to her, one she does reluctantly. It seems obvious to me that you guys HAVE to start communicating somehow. You need to make it clear to her how much is at stake, if you haven't already. She can't just avoid all R talks forever when you're miserable. And if you let her off the hook here, you're participating in the downfall of the M. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but be a wakeup call. I wish I'd had one sooner and had more time to fix things. Maybe you still do! But you HAVE to face this head on. And ask yourself: do I want someone who won't even discuss our R and only reluctantly pays me the attention I need? Have you read SSM? If not, do it- you will understand more about her if you do. And you will get that, although you think you've been very clear with her about your needs, she still may not have heard you clearly. After you read it, if you can get her to read the part about the HD spouse, it could be eye-opening- if she's willing to see it- for her.

Quote:

She will not initiate sex at all, and it's been this way for years. At least she used to tell me to meet her upstairs, but that's the furthest extent of it, and even that hasn't happened in the last three years. Kissing/making out is non-existent over that time. We haven't kissed for more than three seconds and it pretty much feels like she's trying to get away.


Ugh, you're describing me to an extent and it must feel awful from the other end. For me, I had anger and resentment built up so much that I couldn't be close to him that way, it all got in my way. It's a catch-22 expecting the LD person to initiate, but understandable that the HD one no longer will initiate b/c of feeling rejected... Do you have an IC? It might help you to talk to someone alone. You must have a lot of rejection feelings that you want to try to work through and realize that it's not you who's unlovable. It's her inability to show you in a way you can see it that she loves you.

Quote:
I appreciate the actions you mention: hugging, kissing, touching an arm. I'd perceive any of that as a positive response. It would mean the world to me. The complete lack of pursuit is killing me emotionally, the effect is I want to reject her entirely. I just can't continue this way.

In the end I *think* I just want to feel wanted. Maybe it's just me. I worry some that I've been a doormat, but I don't think she perceives things that way.


My H could've written that above. You must act now. Through the ways I mentioned above. You must let her know how dire this is for you- if she won't listen verbally, write her a letter. Others may disagree with me, but you're about to be a WAS, and the non-pursuit is really aimed at the LBS. I believe if you're at risk to be WAS, you owe it to her and to you to communicate what you need and where your "bottom line" is- before you walk away. That's not pursuing, that's trying to save your marriage. Now, if she were trying to leave YOU, that's when you would not want to pursue...


When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go;
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow;
Go ask Alice...
I think she'll know.
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Thanks Alice, I appreciate your response.

I've decided that if she won't follow me to a new MC, I'll just go and see what happens. My biggest disappointment with the first MC was she asked us not to discuss our relationship outside of her office, and then never proceeded to help us learn/negotiate how to communicate productively on our own.

I did read SSM last year, and it hit home. I asked her to read the first chapter and she eventually did, but doesn't seem interested in following up. Anytime anything having to do with sex comes up it makes her uncomfortable. On our MC's suggestion, I picked up a book, "101 Nights of Romance", which has alternating secret (romantic) activity booklets for us to surprise each other with. I enjoyed doing three of them and I think she did too. She did one, didn't seem to like it, and has basically blown off any further reciprocal activity. I want to say she's defensive about it, or she feels there's too much pressure. If so, how do I bring her out?

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Originally Posted By: Apples
Thanks Alice, I appreciate your response.


No problem. Anyone I can help avoid what I've gone through makes me feel good. Btw, I prefer posting in the alt now. By asking around of my other friends (who I post to), you can find me there.

Quote:

I've decided that if she won't follow me to a new MC, I'll just go and see what happens. My biggest disappointment with the first MC was she asked us not to discuss our relationship outside of her office, and then never proceeded to help us learn/negotiate how to communicate productively on our own.


This is mind-boggling. The job of IC/MC is to help you do the work on your own- to put them out of a job by giving you the life tools.
Quote:

I did read SSM last year, and it hit home. I asked her to read the first chapter and she eventually did, but doesn't seem interested in following up. Anytime anything having to do with sex comes up it makes her uncomfortable. On our MC's suggestion, I picked up a book, "101 Nights of Romance", which has alternating secret (romantic) activity booklets for us to surprise each other with. I enjoyed doing three of them and I think she did too. She did one, didn't seem to like it, and has basically blown off any further reciprocal activity. I want to say she's defensive about it, or she feels there's too much pressure. If so, how do I bring her out?


that's a great book, but you need 2 willing participants. Without knowing your W, it's hard to say what will bring her out. This is hard to hear, but it may be a statement from you - not threatening, but honest- about what you can and can't live with any longer. Have you read the Dance of Communication (I think that's the title) by Harriet Lerner? She talks about difficult discussions and "finding and communicating your bottom line" in a non-threatening way to a loved one. I would read that chapter first. Can't type too much today, but I think you'll find it helpful. Honestly, what woke me up was my H telling me he wanted a D. Sadly, that's what it took, and it may still be too late. If you're like my H and act pretty ok most of the time, she may tell herself you're not THAT unhappy- after all, if you were, wouldn't you have already left? Wouldn't you be angry all the time? And you're not, so what conclusion does she draw if it fits in her world? I'm not saying you should be angry or leave, just that she is drawing conclusions you need to bust for her by finding a way to get through.

I still am not 100% sure why I felt so uncomfortable for a while, or pressured. But I did- the pressure was there all the time b/c I did at some level know what he wanted and that for whatever reason I wasn't ready to give it to him, but that dread was always hanging over my head and it made it much harder to make a stab at it in any way...

Find me in the alt if you can, please. Ask others here on a *different* thread- not here, -- start your own if you haven't already- how to do that.


When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go;
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow;
Go ask Alice...
I think she'll know.
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Alice, I'm posting here for continuity's sake.

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Quote:

Without knowing your W, it's hard to say what will bring her out. This is hard to hear, but it may be a statement from you - not threatening, but honest- about what you can and can't live with any longer. Have you read the Dance of Communication (I think that's the title) by Harriet Lerner? She talks about difficult discussions and "finding and communicating your bottom line" in a non-threatening way to a loved one. I would read that chapter first. Can't type too much today, but I think you'll find it helpful. Honestly, what woke me up was my H telling me he wanted a D. Sadly, that's what it took, and it may still be too late. If you're like my H and act pretty ok most of the time, she may tell herself you're not THAT unhappy- after all, if you were, wouldn't you have already left? Wouldn't you be angry all the time? And you're not, so what conclusion does she draw if it fits in her world? I'm not saying you should be angry or leave, just that she is drawing conclusions you need to bust for her by finding a way to get through.


Yup, yup, yup. We still go through this cycle of me working hard to bury my resentments and speak to her in her LL's. She gets comfortable with it, thinks everything is great even though my needs aren't getting met, then when it all comes rushing back to me I crash and she's left bewildered because she thought everything was going great. I sometimes feel like Bill Murray in groundhog day. This time around though it is different, we don't seem to be breaking out of it instead there seems to be a lot of seething resentment and anger, but she still won't talk to me about it. I get the feeling she's done with us but is afraid to say or do anything about it.

Quote:

I still am not 100% sure why I felt so uncomfortable for a while, or pressured. But I did- the pressure was there all the time b/c I did at some level know what he wanted and that for whatever reason I wasn't ready to give it to him, but that dread was always hanging over my head and it made it much harder to make a stab at it in any way...


I sense the same from MrsGGB.

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Originally Posted By: Apples
Well... this is my first post.

...I'm so sick of being rejected and not feeling wanted at all. I've said as much explicitly for a couple of years.

...She honestly seems to be into making things work (showing love), however, this means she does what she thinks I need, not what I think I need. On the other hand she absolutely refuses to tell me or give me hints as to what helps her feel loved.

...I've read through Love Languages so I get the idea we show and need in different ways. Her languages seem to be affirmation and acts of service. Mine are physical and quality time. I can tell her efforts towards me are focused on cooking more often (acts of service), and sitting on the other side of our sectional couch to be near me at night (quality time). The cooking is great, I love it and I've always been very thankful for it. However the quality time is different, she doesn't hesitate to remind me she's only near me cause I want her to be. She'd rather be reading her New Yorker... why she can't do both makes no sense to me.

She will not initiate sex at all, and it's been this way for years. At least she used to tell me to meet her upstairs, but that's the furthest extent of it, and even that hasn't happened in the last three years. Kissing/making out is non-existent over that time. We haven't kissed for more than three seconds and it pretty much feels like she's trying to get away.

....In the end I *think* I just want to feel wanted. Maybe it's just me. I worry some that I've been a doormat, but I don't think she perceives things that way.


First of all, I understand what you are going through. Sexual rejection hurts a man to the very core. Coping with that rejection around a wife and children is very difficult.

Last week, I tried to initiate sex with my wife and was rejected every night until I got really angry with my wife and told her that she was jeprodizing our marriage again, she paniced, apologized and we had a long talk about how it was just a bad week for her, how we really didn't have that much "relationship goodwill" or "love bank deposits" between us and that we need to focus on making sure we build up that reserve of good will between us to help ride through the bad weeks. We ML later and are much closer again.

Making each other feel loved in their respective languages of love until a positive emotional relationship "reserve" is established makes a lot of sense to me. I think your reading the SSM and getting her to read the first chapter in the SSM is important, as is your reading the 5 languages of love.

The pain of sexual rejection really hurts deeply. There is a statement in the Pasionate Marriage to the effect that sexual rejection is something that people take personally and can't help but take personally. In the SSM they advice the Nike, "just do it" approach to preventing the feeling of rejection. I think that rejection of any kind is something that most people find very difficult, which is why there are so few good cold-call salesmen and why dating is so hard on many people.

It sounds like you are doing the right things. The best advice I got from this forum was to work on Getting a Life (GAL or see the book No More Mr. Nice Guy), that change will take time and I should be patient, and that I can not force my spouse to change, I can only offer to support the changes she wants to make.

It sounds like you have figured out your wife and her languages of love. Congratulations! Now you need to incorporate that knowledge into your life through rituals and integrating them in your thinking. If I were you, when she expresses love to you in her languages, tell her that you understand her love for you and you appreciate it.

It took me a long time to realize that my wife had approximately the same feelings of anger and rejection when I came home late and missed a hot dinner she had prepared for me as I have when she rejects my attempt to initiate sex. By thanking her for when she expresses her love, you may make her feel more loving and appreciated. That may lead to other things eventually, when she wants to change.

In your case, maybe you can find some ritual that will involve your giving her the "kind and degree" of quality time that she wants, which should involve closeness without interaction. Perhaps a date night where you go to a movie and sit together to watch something, a night with a DVD from the video store, or occasionally going out to a play or symphony are her ideal dates. I think that the trick is to figure out what works for your partner in their particular language of love and make them feel loved.

After my wife started to feel loved and appreciated for what she did, I and our conselor were able to explain to her that I knew I was loved by my wife, but I just didn't "feel" loved, as her expressions of love were not in my languages of love.

My wife eventually understood this as an intellectual concept, but is struggling to incorporate it into her life. She has made great strides and up until last week we have been having sex two to three times a week. She is also touching me regularly. That is why I feel that we have turned the corner on ending our sex starved marriage, but I know there will be problem weeks and we will need to work through things.

I don't think that you are a doormat. I think that you have been hurt deeply and have figured out a way to cope with the pain of rejection and still be close to all members of your family and help raise a healthy child. That is quite an accomplishment.

Implementing change, managing change, educating a partner on your needs, and inspiring them to want to change are really difficult.

My last thought is that I am a strong advocate of board certified sex therapists over regular marriage counselors for people who feel that they have a sex starved marriage.

Good luck to you and congratulations for all that you are doing to protect your marriage and family.


>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
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Boy do I understand what you are saying, I have been there. It took me a while to realize that my wife's self body image issues were so intense that my buying lingerie, candles (that implied I wanted to look at her naked body), etc. were things that she felt were insults. I don't know how much I spent on such things, aroma therapy for the bedroom, videos she would not look at, etc.

My wife has finally, started to come to terms with her body. In my GAL, I have lost a lot of weight and worked at getting fit. My wife and I just ran in a local 5-mile run and did in the middle of the pack for our age/gender group. She has also started to loose some weight and is exercising more and is planning to drop one more dress size before we go on vacation this summer. She will now let me have sex with her where there is light outside and I can look at her naked body. I like it!

I also know that both our joint sex therapist and the different sex therapist that was seeing my wife individually both gave us/her exercises to do involving body self image. One of our first major counseling fights was over sensate focus exercises that were suppose to be done in the nude. That was way too big a step for my wife.

Originally Posted By: GonnaGoBlind
....We still go through this cycle of me working hard to bury my resentments and speak to her in her LL's. She gets comfortable with it, thinks everything is great even though my needs aren't getting met, then when it all comes rushing back to me I crash and she's left bewildered because she thought everything was going great. I sometimes feel like Bill Murray in groundhog day. This time around though it is different, we don't seem to be breaking out of it instead there seems to be a lot of seething resentment and anger, but she still won't talk to me about it. I get the feeling she's done with us but is afraid to say or do anything about it.


It sounds like some progress and some backsliding. The biggest hurdle that my wife overcame was her anger at me that had been building for several decades. It came to a head, when a sex therapist allowed her to express it and then pointed out that that anger had caused her to emotionally/sexually withdraw from me and that had produced the exact same kind and level anger in me. She realized that she was the cause of the same intensity of pain in me that she blamed me for causing her. That was too much for her to handle. It allowed her to ultimately forgive me. Intellectually I forgave her love before, but each week I need to remind myself that forgiving her releases me from my anger and allows me to better love her. It is a really hard cycle to break. You recognize the cycle and that is the first step in dealing with it.

If it is feeling different, it might be time to try to figure out a "180" that may help change the dynamics of what is happening in your relationship.

I don't think I am really skilled at 180's so some others may have some suggestions as to specifics for you to think about.

I wish you luck in your marriage.



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Originally Posted By: alice444
Find me in the alt if you can, please.


What's the "alt"?

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