Women with HD...is it true or just situational?

[DanceQueen]

On husband01's thread, ssmguy posed this:

"Even though I know some women who are HD, I still have a hard time believing they'd be sustained-HD after the initial novelty died off. Here I am in my late 50's and my desire level has been THE SAME since my early teens. I'd like to have a good romantic, erotic, sexual encounter about once a day. I can skip a day, but then I'd want maybe 2-3 times the 2nd day. Occasionally, it would be fun to have sex 5 or more times in a supercharged erotic day, but I don't think of that as requirement. I would really LOVE TO HEAR if any HD women here think that is way out of line, or if they'd ever want their husbands to have THAT level of sexual ardor. My ultimate fantasy is to be with a woman who wanted more sex than me, putting me in the position of saying, "What? Again?"! It's a kind of turn-the-tables fantasy, I suppose."

OK here is my situation.

I am HD, even more than my husband. He is not LD, just that I would like sex more frequently than he would. He would be happy with 1 - 2 times per week, and I would prefer 3 - 5 times per week.

Now having said this, I have to also say some other things about my situation, because I believe the below points are all related to my high level of desire.

1. I am VERY attracted to my husband physically and emotionally. He is my ideal.

2. I am getting all of my other emotional needs met right now, either by my husband or through friends and family.

3. I am not under any large amount of stress in my life at the moment.

4. My husband exhibits tendancies of an alpha male, and this keeps me sexually attracted (different than physical attraction) to him all the time.

5. My husband is a stellar lover, with a very experienced past sex life. He "knows" what to do, how to touch me, what women want/need sexually, he does not "fumble the ball" so to speak. Even down to just kissing, he is excellent at it, and I love kissing for long periods of time, so this is important.

6. My kids are grown and have flown.

7. I am in good physical health, and am not in menopause yet.

8. I am in good physical shape and am happy with my body, I feel sexy in clothes or out of them.

9. My husband and I are both mature enough to discuss and play out most or all of our fantasies (many times younger or more inexperienced couples are not comfortable with this).

- - - - -

Many women and counselors will say that for a woman, she needs to have a lot of other things in her life going "right" before she will feel her full sex drive. I happen to have all my boxes check marked to feel my full sex drive, so I can attest to this.

If you take away any of the items on my list above, my sex drive will change accordingly. Take away several items on my list, and my sex drive could take a nose dive.

It may seem unfair to men that women have such high needs to be met before she can feel her full sexuality, while a man sometimes doesn't need any needs met and he will feel his sex drive all the time.

But consider this: if you want your woman to want YOU and not just SEX, then her list has to be full. Don't you want her to want YOU? There is a difference.

I think women many times believe that a man just wants the sex, and not necessarily with her, just that she is his wife so he focuses on her, but that really he just wants sex period. This is a turn off to a woman, and believe it or not, it would be a turn off to most men, too.

For instance, I want my husband and only my husband. I literally sexually fantasize about him all day long, so by the time he gets home from work, I am just about ready to jump his bones just by my own fantasizing. But if he changed somehow and began acting like a "Nice Guy" (per the NMMNG book), I would immediately lose at least some of my sexual attraction for him. I am largely sexually attracted to him based on his alpha male tendancies. So if he changed, my desire toward him would change. But would my desire disappear completely? Unfortuantely what I think would happen is that I would begin to fantasize about sex with other people instead of with him. So my desire to feel sexual and to fantasize wouldn't probably change, but my desire to have sex WOULD change because I would most likely not want to have sex with HIM.

I am writing this to hopefully provoke thought in some of the guys around here. I don't know if this post will tick some people off though, so I apologize in advance if it does. I can already see that it is likely that men who have been spending years trying to meet their wives needs will balk at what I'm saying, as it hasn't worked for them. But....review my list again. Are ALL the items on this list true for your wife? Does she feel sexy, naked or in clothes? Is she strongly physically attracted to you? Does she have little kids, or is she in menopause?

So what happens to me when I hit menopause? I don't know yet, I'll check back in when it happens and let you know.

As for ssmguy's last point of having a fantasy of being with a woman who wants sex more than he does...ssmguy, I can tell you that you wouldn't like it. My husband does not like it that I seem to be dissatisfied with the amount of sex we have. He feels like 1 - 2 times per week is still really a good amount after 6 years together and considering our ages (42 and 46). When I want more, he doesn't take it as a compliment...he takes it as a complaint! And no man wants to hear that he isn't making his wife happy, right? So I literally have to tone it down and make sure he feels he is making me happy, make sure I don't appear to "just want sex" from him, as that is very insulting to him. Sound familiar? When we've just had great sex and I'm after him for more the next day, I am thinking "it was so great, I want more", and he is thinking "no matter how much I give her, it isn't enough". I think this is a typical pattern between mismatched libido spouses, even when the mismatch is still very close like ours is.

My point in a nutshell: I am very fortunate that all my list items are checked and I get to feel the full force of my sex drive...but I think most women are lacking in some or many of these types of list items and no matter how hard their husbands try to fill their wife's list, she has to fill many of the items herself, and some other items are beyond either of their control. Its one thing to think "oh great, I have fulfillled my wife's list so now she will automatically want more sex"...but the moment you've said that, you need to double check the list again, because if you aren't exhibiting alpha male tendancies, and you aren't in great physical shape and attractive to her, and if she has little kids at her feet, and so on and so forth, then your efforts may not work.

I know now (after being divorced and remarried) that my desire to feel sexual is and has always been very very high. But my desire to actually HAVE SEX is directly dependant upon my list factors above being met.

DQ

[SillyOldBear]

You make a very good point, one that makes me a little uncomfortable as I look at your list. I know my wife's list would be pretty close to that, and I can tick off the items that aren't there for her yet. Some are things she controls . . . some are mine.

Aside from that, I think the gap may be worse than you think, because I think a lot of men would say, if they thought it over a bit, that the unchecked items on their lists tend to make sex with their wives more important, not less. Maybe others will chime in.

[june72]

DQ,
So interesting to read. I, too, think I am a higher drive gal. What's not to like about it. I actually think I am the one who initiates more with my husband. I would like it every day.

Very interesting aside,
last year I read a book about migraines (causes, treatments etc.). The author noted that studies have shown that women with migraines have a sex drive substantially higher than most women. That their sex drive compares to men. The exact reason for the correlation is not known though.
Wonder if it has to do with differing levels of female hormones. I know that I am very prone to migraines during that time of month. Also, the same that I am so incredibly interested in sex.

Interesting-

[ssmguy]

DanceQueen, thanks very much for your thoughtul reply! It's an interesting insight into how an HD woman like you sees the situation.

I think I could be happy with a woman in your HD range, provided you would also be interested in "supercharged" days while on a romantic vacation, etc.

It's clear to me now that my wife is LD, or ND, and checking all her boxes isn't going to make her HD. In fact, before we went to therapy, we were in a constant box-checking spin which got us nowhere. She would offer the flimsiest of excuses for avoiding any sexual activity, even on romantic getaway vacations. Even such excuses as saying that something I said three days earlier sounded uncomplimentary and was now upsetting her. In such cases, the time the excuse was needed was the first time she'd bring it up, rather than responding at the original moment to ask for a clarification. And this from a woman who is otherwise very ouspoken.

But getting down to even more basic questions, let me guess that you have no trouble having orgasms? Otherwise it would surprise me that you'd be so happy with your love life. My wife has never had an orgasm, and she has never wanted me to try to manually stimulate her sexually, though she was OK with just intercourse and did find that pleasurable in the early years.

There have been times when she's been extremely happy and thankful for things I've done, and wants to celebrate with me by going out and doing things together, etc. But she's comically succussful in making sure that we're out long enough to make sure she'll need to go straight to sleep when we get home.

I think it's fine to have checkboxes, just as you do, in a relationship where there is sex. But unfortunately, couples like us who aren't really like you and your husband, have taken advice like yours and incorrectly applied it to ourselves. For too long, I thought I was inadequate because I couldn't check enough of her boxes to have any sex at all, even if I stood on my head. And all the while I knew of couples where the wives were highly irritated at their husbands' laziness around the house, hogging the TV remote, and spending too much time with their buddies, yet these same guys were getting laid by their wives on a regular basis! At the time, that drove me nearly insane, and I pretty much chalked it up to some inadequacy I couldn't figure out. I thought there was some "magic touch" I just didn't have. And let me tell you, there is nothing like an emotional setup like that to drive a man into an affair with another woman who quickly assures him he's "got it" and is attractive, etc.

And, no, DanceQueen, I don't think it's unfair for a woman to need a fulfilled "need list". Just as long as it's an honest reflection of what you really need, and not a smokescreen for avoiding sex. Men, including myself, also have a "need list" which seems unfair to some women, such as needing a woman who is attractive, slim and athletic, for example. All of which my wife is. (We both are in excellent physical condition, so no complaints on either side.)

As for not being happy with at least a temporary fantasy of being with a woman who wants more sex than me, I'm probably different from your husband. The thing is, I agree with you -- if it's great, why wouldn't you want more? Though I'd be happy with once a day, on average, I could handle someone who wanted it 3 times a day on average, at least for a good long while! But in that case, it wouldn't be just the sex, but it would have to include a constant flirtation, making out, and mental/erotic communication. Just knowing that someone wanted sex pretty much every time I came home from work would already kick it up a notch for me.

Hey, several times I tried scheduling my wife for a romantic lunch and "nooner" in a hotel room near our places of work. She never, not even once, took me up on that, not even when we were having sex.

[ssmguy]

And I should add, not long after I had tried unsuccesfully to schedule a "nooner" with my wife, a male friend of mine confided with a smile that his wife had scheduled him for a noontime rendezvous at a nearby hotel with a bottle of champagne waiting. His wife scheduled it!! Can you believe that? And he just "went along for the ride". I was amused and happy for my friend, of course, and told him what a great wife he had. But at the time it also made me feel like total crap in contrast to my own situation.

[DanceQueen]

ssmguy, just a question...have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, and/or do you know what this book is about?

You didn't respond to any part of my post that pointed out that if a man doesn't behave like an alpha male, women can't find their attraction to him.

I am not saying you are a Nice Guy or not, just wondering if you know what this part of my post is referring to.

I agree that there will be some men and some women who are LD/ND and who will not change no matter what their spouse does. But at the same time, I think there might be some glimmer of hope if their spouse makes some key changes they may not have thought of before. These key changes will usually not be the "reasons/excuses" a woman makes. In other words, she may say she needs a bigger house, a new career, more money, more help around the house, but she doesn't actually KNOW why she is LD/ND. She may believe she just needs more domestic help, but usually she really needs to feel her attraction, which she can't do if her husband isn't behaving like an alpha male.

Just asking if you know what this is about.

DQ

[Cyrena]

I'm just following along, and couldn't help wondering--ssmguy, given that you've been in a sex-starved marriage forever, how is it that you KNOW how much sex you'd be asking for in a marriage, or that your desire would remain the same if it was being satisfied by your wife? Aren't these in some ways fantasy assumptions?

Also, you married a LD-in-these-circumstances woman, you are determined to stay in this sexless marriage, which makes me wonder: is there a part of you which absolutely needs to be with a LD woman?

[ssmguy]

DanceQueen, yes, I actually have the NMMNG book. Haven't read all of it, but I get the gist of it. So I know generally what you're referring to. Could you summarize in a few sentence what it is you see in your husband as a sort of "alpha quality"? It might mean something somewhat different for different women. So not saying what you say would apply to other women, but it would be interesting to hear your take on it. I presume it has something to do with his presence being independent of those around him, that he makes his own decisions, and has a strong sense of himself, and not needing the approval of everyone around him all the time. And he's not afraid to stand up to someone he disagrees with. And you know that if he does something, it's because he genuinely wants to do it, not because he feels like he needs to just to smooth things over with everyone. So you know you get honesty with him. And maybe also there is a bit of feeling that if he gives you a compliment, you know it's real. Something like that?

Gets kind of dangerous when a woman tries on new clothes and asks, does this dress make my butt look big? Hard to always be fully honest, if you know what I mean!

Did that answer all the questions, DanceQueen?

Cyrena, I know how much sex I want because I know my own biology from experience. I'm having as much sex as I want, just not with my wife, and not necessarily with anyone else either! So, not fantasy assumptions. Also recalling from past when we did have sex.

Staying in the marriage isn't all about my needs. I have a whole pack of kids. And again, the marriage is otherwise quite good. It just seems so silly to switch it all around just for this one bedroom activity, which takes relatively little time compared to sleeping.

[DanceQueen]

ssmguy - To describe some of my husband's alpha male behaviors, I will focus on the sexy part of those behaviors. There are lots of things that make up the total picture of the alpha male in the NMMNG book, things like having male friends and doing things with them regularly, taking responsibility for your own actions and leading your family on most matters, etc. But I'm going to skip those and go straight to the sexy parts, as those are the ones I was asking you about.

So to describe my husband's sexy alpha behaviors, I'll start with his attitude that he could take sex or leave it. He is not controlled by his own sex drive. It is a large part of him, but it doesn't control him. He USES his sexuality and sex drive as a tool - but the tool does not use him. When a man has the attitude that he could take sex or leave it, it doesn't mean he doesn't want sex. It means that there are more important things in life, and that he is confident that he will get sex when HE wants it. He knows within himself that he doesn't have to beg for sex, and he would never do so.

Now, you may think that the attitude I'm describing about my husband is only present in him because I offer him sex all the time. But that isn't the case. He had the same attitude about sex when I met him, and he had not been dating for about 3 years at that time. He may have had booty-call girls and may have been getting sex somehow, but not within a relationship or even dating. Yet he STILL had the attitude that sex is not the most important thing in life, that it will be available to him when he wants it, and that it is not a SCARCITY.

This attitude makes him highly sexy. It means that he will not be groveling around or chasing anyone for sex, which tells a woman that he is in control of himself. And as it happens, women do actually throw themselves at him, just based on his attitude.

He doesn't SAY things outloud about being in control of his sexuality, he has never said the things above directly in the way I said them in this post. Instead, he just exudes the confidence I am describing and he does NOT exhibit behaviors of a man who is chasing sex. A man who feels sex is a scarcity for him will comment about it all the time as if he has no control over this injustice, so his insecurity about sex comes out of him and its obvious to women. Most women will find this a turn off, while she will find a man who seems to not "need" sex a turn ON.

Now having said all of that, when he DOES want sex or just to behave sexually with me, what he does is he just takes what he wants. He doesn't ask me. He doesn't wait for me to start it up. He doesn't even get my permission. He just takes it.

So how this might look on any given day is this: We are done with dinner and with the dishes, we are both headed toward doing our own thing and pass each other in the hallway. Suddenly he will pin me up against the wall, rip my shirt and bra up and grope my breasts while kissing me deeply. He will then leave me breathless and go on about his business. I barely even have time to realize what has just happened.

If all he wanted was the grope, he just goes for it. He doesn't then make more moves toward sex. The grope is all he wants sometimes.

If he also wants to move forward to sex, OR if the groping turns him on and he then wants sex, he will then also begin mashing me up against the wall with his groin and will start touching my body all over...if I don't catch his clue that this is sex initiation, then of course he'll just tell me and we can discuss it, but usually I get the gist, and we end up rolling into the bedroom while groping and grabbing and throwing clothes off.

Now again, you are likely going to say "but my wife would never allow that".

See why this is not an alpha male response? Because you have given your wife power and control over your sexuality by saying she would never "allow" that. If your attitude exudes the fact that you are in control over your own sexuality, it will turn your wife ON. If your attitude exudes the fact that she is in total control of all the sex, it will turn her OFF.

I'm not suggesting you try the above example. I'm just telling you how it looks in my relationship. And of course, it looks this way because of HIS attitude about himself. His attitude about me is also a turnon: I'm HIS, he OWNS me and my body, he pays attention to me everyday and makes sure no one else is in my mind or heart, he loves the way I look, dress, and feel, and most importantly, he loves it that I look up to him and want him to lead our family. It turns me on to be able to depend on him, count on him, know that he is leading us and not myself.

I hope any of this helps. It may not, but I hope it does. I am happy to answer more questions if it doesn't.

DQ

[Strong&Alive]

Ssmguy,

Staying in the marriage isn't all about my needs. I have a whole pack of kids.

"For the sake of the kids." That's a very understandable approach. Until... you ask yourself what kind of example of marriage you're giving them. Would you want any of your children to end up with this kind of marriage? Its a fallacy that kids don't know their parents aren't having sexual intimacy. They know. And that is the message about marriage they receive. Think back to when you were their age.

And again, the marriage is otherwise quite good. It just seems so silly to switch it all around just for this one bedroom activity, which takes relatively little time compared to sleeping.

Your marriage cannot be "quite good" or anything near it, if you are constantly stifling your authentic desires, having sex on the side/ affairs/ whatever, not being true to yourself, just so you don't "rock the boat".

You can rationalize - this "silly", "bedroom activity" that takes "little time" - all you want, but the truth is that it means way more than that, and you know it. Again, is this "sex is really just silly" line what you want your children to believe, or do you want them to see a healthy role model?

I agree with the other poster that said you have let your wife right off the hook. You have also let yourself off the hook. Your actions (all that count) have told your wife sex is no big deal in a marriage. She currently has no incentive to make any effort whatsoever. You are also brainwashing yourself and settling into a stagnant marriage... have you seriously contemplated where this is going and how it all ends?

I'll bet that if tonight you looked right into your wife's eyes and said "I'm sick of a sexless marriage, you either help me change it, or we divorce" and meant every word, you would see a whole new side to her. And if you got no emotional response, no acknowledgement of your wants and dreams and desires, a "see if I care" attitude, the question you have to ask yourself (that every man in a sex starved marriage has to ask himself) is "If I mean so little to her, if I am worth no effort on her part, why the hell do I want to be with her?" Seriously.

I would be interested in hearing when was the last time you actually had sex with your wife, what exactly your arrangement to get your needs met outside the marriage is, and what she had to say about it at the time?

S&A