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Went last night to meet my W to discuss mediation, which of course we hardly talked about. She asked what I want to do with this year's taxes, then I said I just assumed we'd be filing separately, then she said it might be better if we file together for the next couple years, then I said "W, we'll be divorced in a couple years." She got flustered and said "If you were trying to shock me, congratulations, it worked, now can we just talk about this?" I looked her dead in the eyes and I asked "W, do you want a divorce?" She looked sad and said "I don't know." I answered back "W, I don't want a divorce." And we were off on a HUGE R talk.

I effectively got the answer to "Just tell me and let me decide whether I can forgive you," although it got asked a bit indirectly. As soon as we broached the subject of moving forward, she said "There are some things you need to know so either you and I can continue to work on this, or you can just do what you have to do (i.e. divorce)." I said okay, she paused, then looked terrified and said "I don't miss you a lot of the time. I've lived for 10 months without hostility in my life, and I'm never going back to it." I said "You never should." We talked about that a bit, then I said "You actually didn't say what I thought you'd say" and she said "I didn't say everything, I just couldn't." She looked VERY terrified, looked at me and said "I can't, I can't hurt you like that". I knew what she wasn't saying, I knew from how she was terrified, and from the intel I got. She wanted to say "H, what I have with OM I never had with you." She knew from the look on my face that I knew what she wasn't saying. I thought our hopes might be over right then and there, but she hung in there and stayed with me, and to my surprise, I hung in and stayed with her.

We started talking about our M, and how we were both such bad partners. I told her how I used to pathetically think that as long as I didn't voice my disapproval about something, I thought I was being kind, even though my body language and attitude showed otherwise. She smiled and agreed completely that is exactly what I used to do. Then I said how it must have been repulsive when I'd then approach her for sex, and she sadly nodded.

Then she totally blindsided me. She said "H, you were married to the biggest loser of a W ever." I was flabbergasted, and said "What?!" She said "I was immature, and childish, and I always tried to maneuver situations into my favor." I laughed and agreed. This is an enormous move from where she was six months ago, when it was all MY fault. She said "I never would have been able to realize how bad of a W I was if she hadn't left." She said she doesn't know what came first, but she knows the way she was made my mood worse, not better. We had a little fun busting on each other's failings during our M, and laughing about it. I was a pathetic H and she was a loser W. Awesome!

Then it got more serious. I said "W, we've got a few choices in front of us here. Either we can just push ahead with the S and D, and get it done and get away from each other, or we can set it aside for now, spend time with each other and see what happens, or we can set it aside and get away from each other to see how we feel after a while. Or I suppose we can push ahead with the D AND spend time with each other, but that seems a little at odds with itself." She looked terrified again and said "If I go with a couple of those options, I'm going to have to do something... I'll have to cut a lifeline, and..." She paused and looked very scared, then said "I'm going to see MC later this week, and I need to get clear about what I want." I just nodded. She said "I'm not assuming that just because I want something that you'll want it too." The fact that she's even going to see our MC is incredible. The fact that she's openly discussing with me the termination of her A is incredible.

Of course she hasn't actually decided anything yet.

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I think I need to have one more talk with my W before she goes to see our MC later this week. I need to make sure she knows what the stakes are from my end. Over the last couple months the boundaries between us have been very soft. We've done things together as a family and just her and me. She says she doesn't miss me a lot of the time? What a joke. I haven't let her miss me! We're together all the time!

I need to tell my W that if she decides not to cut that lifeline (completely end her A with OM), then I have only one choice, which is to move fully ahead with the S and D, and insist on new hard boundaries, essentially cutting off all contact with her. Custody transitions can go through her mother's place, so I never have to see her, and I'll tell her not to call me any more, for anything, ever. All kid issues, barring emergency, are to be handled through e-mail and texting. I'll tell her I won't stand near her at any of our kids' games or events, and I won't talk to her. Not because I'm angry or vindictive, but because seeing her will make it harder for me to move on and build a new life.

I feel like I need to proactively tell her this, rather than just react and do it if she says OM is too important to her to give up, because once she makes that declaration it'll be a lot tougher for her to back up. She's pondering things very seriously now, and I need to make sure I've made my position clear. She needs to know our R will be OVER if she decides to hold onto her A and OM.

I'm not nearly as confident in this as it probably sounds. Anyone here have an opinion?

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Yes. I agree with you.

Puppy

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Quote:
Anyone here have an opinion?


I do Future. Puppy may or may not agree...

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She says she doesn't miss me a lot of the time? What a joke. I haven't let her miss me! We're together all the time!


This current arrangement is very comfortable for her. She gets her family fix with you and passion/affair fix with OM. As I suspected, the affair is ongoing and she is still in contact with OM.

Quote:
I need to tell my W that if she decides not to cut that lifeline (completely end her A with OM), then I have only one choice, which is to move fully ahead with the S and D, and insist on new hard boundaries, essentially cutting off all contact with her.


Cutting off contact with your W is your choice, and probably the right one if done lovingly. It's not something you need to insist on or get her approval to do. By spending all of this time with her whilst the affair is ongoing, you are actually enabling her and making life very hard for yourself emotionally. It is highly unlikely that she'll end the A unless she actually experiences life without you, and OM has to meet all of her needs. The reason you're in her life so much is because you provide things that OM isn't able to. Going pitch black is what Dr. Willard Harley would call a Plan B.

It's very improbable that she'll give up OM WITHOUT a period of no contact with her. Remember that affairs are a drug in the cheater's blood.

Your wife is actively in an affair and in my experience, the only thing they respond to is HARD CONSEQUENCES or more euphemistically put, LOSS.

And forget about "lifeline". That's Affair Speak for "addiction/indulgence that I would suffer for if I were to give it up".


Me: 44
W: 44
T: 21
M: 19
DS11
DD10
DS3

W left: 01/28/08
Discovered OM: 02/26/08
W back for 9 days: 04/08
W returned 05/21/08
EA/PA - 01/08-07/09
W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
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Hi again Future,

The counselling she wants to go for is probably an excuse to prolong the affair, buy more time and legitimise it all her her mind both to you and to herself.

All the while she gets to enjoy both you and OM.

Sorry to sound blunt and please remember, this is only my opnion. However you proceed is entirely up to you.

I wish you the best my friend.


Me: 44
W: 44
T: 21
M: 19
DS11
DD10
DS3

W left: 01/28/08
Discovered OM: 02/26/08
W back for 9 days: 04/08
W returned 05/21/08
EA/PA - 01/08-07/09
W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
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Quote:

This current arrangement is very comfortable for her. She gets her family fix with you and passion/affair fix with OM. As I suspected, the affair is ongoing and she is still in contact with OM.


I know. I have been allowing her to cake eat that way, but I wanted to see how I felt about her before we moved toward divorce. I knew she wanted me around for the family fix, so I made sure we also have spent time alone just her and me. We have a great time, but you're right, she's reserving the passion for OM.

Quote:

Cutting off contact with your W is your choice, and probably the right one if done lovingly. It's not something you need to insist on or get her approval to do. By spending all of this time with her whilst the affair is ongoing, you are actually enabling her and making life very hard for yourself emotionally. It is highly unlikely that she'll end the A unless she actually experiences life without you, and OM has to meet all of her needs. The reason you're in her life so much is because you provide things that OM isn't able to. Going pitch black is what Dr. Willard Harley would call a Plan B.


Cutting off contact is definitely my choice. I did cut her off nearly entirely for the first six months of this year while her A was going strong, so she has experienced life without me. I GALed and got my head back on straight. As her A ramped down, I thought I'd test the waters a bit and see how I feel about her, and how we feel together, and I won't lie, I missed her. I don't know, maybe I should have held a hard line and insisted she gets nothing until she comes begging to me to take her back, but given what I know our M was, I knew that would never happen. She would maybe be sad, and maybe miss me, but unless she experienced me differently, she would never risk being with me again, and she would have no reason to end her A.

That's what I was trying to say in my first post of this thread. I couldn't hold myself up as the wonderful H she mercilessly betrayed. Our M had serious problems, and I failed her in many fundamental ways, so I had to let her go and let this play out. If she still had feelings for me, I hoped they would surface again, and they have. Are they enough to overcome our past? I don't know. I think it's great she has realized and expressed to me how she failed me too, and she says she still loves me.

My situation is includes betrayal on both our parts, which makes it difficult for me to follow one strategy here. I needed to rebuild trust before I could expect any change from her. Unfortunately, that required me to allow some cake eating. I didn't see another option.

Quote:

It's very improbable that she'll give up OM WITHOUT a period of no contact with her. Remember that affairs are a drug in the cheater's blood.

Your wife is actively in an affair and in my experience, the only thing they respond to is HARD CONSEQUENCES or more euphemistically put, LOSS.


Here's the real test. My W is acting waaaayyyy less drugged out now than she was 6-12 months ago. She is reaching out to me, and expressing regret about what happened to our M, and she seems to be telling me her honest feelings. I could see in her face that she doesn't want to lose OM, but I could also see that she knows she can't have us both.

Quote:

And forget about "lifeline". That's Affair Speak for "addiction/indulgence that I would suffer for if I were to give it up".


I agree 100%.

Last edited by futureunknown; 10/14/09 03:11 PM.
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You've said you piece. You've told her you recognize your faults. That's enough talking for now. On the other side, you put her up on a pedestal like she's the cats meow. She's a cheating wife...she isn't all that. I think it's past time you started doing your own thing and forget about her until she's ready to actually come through for the marriage. Anything else is just empty words. NO MORE relationship talks. No more, "we can fix this" talks. No more empty threats.

Start focusing on your own life. I don't see that you have kids (do you?) so there really isn't anything that is keeping you together or that she could miss as far as a family. You have no way of knowing whether she missed you at all...she had OM to keep her company. It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
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Phoenixdeux, get up on the wrong side of the bed? ;-)


Quote:

You've said you piece. You've told her you recognize your faults. That's enough talking for now.


I did tell her in our last discussion that I've said all I can say about our past and I'm only looking at the future now.

Quote:

On the other side, you put her up on a pedestal like she's the cats meow. She's a cheating wife...she isn't all that.


Yeah, I have done that a little too much lately, because she's so much better now, and I really like who she is, but she ripped herself down by calling herself the "biggest loser W in the world". She reminded me of all her faults, and she was right.

Quote:

I think it's past time you started doing your own thing and forget about her until she's ready to actually come through for the marriage.


I am doing my own thing the vast majority of the time. We were almost completely isolated from each other for six months. At some point, if you're going to try to fix your M, you have to start talking. Both she and I expressed that we're glad we're talking now.

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No more empty threats.


I haven't threatened anything. And the ramifications of her not cutting off contact with OM are not empty threats.

Quote:

Start focusing on your own life. I don't see that you have kids (do you?) so there really isn't anything that is keeping you together or that she could miss as far as a family. You have no way of knowing whether she missed you at all...she had OM to keep her company. It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


We have three little kids, and she misses our family terribly. That's why she's crying during kid transitions. I know she misses me because when we see each other her demeanor and body language is so forward, and she peppers me with questions about my life. It's almost like she's starving for my friendship.

Quote:

It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


That's my goal if she chooses to not break away from OM altogether.

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Hi Future,

I wanted to add something about the whole "put the Princess on the pedestal" thing.

I too did this -- BIG time. And so did my wife's parents, and many of her friends, and even one of our adult daughters. Through many long, heartfelt conversations, my wife shared with me that she HATED this, and that she'd grown to learn that IT ACTUALLY HURT HER when people did that. That she needed to know that she was loved AS SHE IS, FAULTS, FLAWS AND ALL, and not just the IMAGE of what we WANTED her to be.

Boy, was I guilt of THAT!!! I've learned over the past two years to learn to love my wife all over again, from scratch, FOR WHO SHE IS, and not who I -- if I just phrased things juuuust right, and minded my Ps and Qs, and did all the right things -- WANTED her to be.

Does that make sense?

It's REAL LOVE, vs. LOVE OF AN IDEAL IMAGE.

Puppy

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Originally Posted By: futureunknown


Quote:

It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


That's my goal if she chooses to not break away from OM altogether.


Ahhh, but Grasshopper, that is the Chicken and the Egg. cool

You see, it is my GALing to the point where you BEGIN to stop being so co-dependent on her, that she will MAKE THE CHOICE to break away from OM altogether!!

Understand???

Puppy

Last edited by Puppy Dog Tails; 10/14/09 09:10 PM.
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