Up, down, turn around

[toughlover]

I was here a lot (and I mean A LOT) 3 years ago when I found out my wife had been cheating on me for 3 years and had planned to divorce me, take our sons away (pre-teens at the time), and marry this guy. At the last minute, she stayed, and this site (and some of the members here) kept me from going off the deep end out of grief over the situation. This is a great site and helps so many people.

Unfortunately, while things initially looked promising in my situation 3 years ago, I find myself in almost the same boat. To my knowledge, my wife has been faithful during this time, hasn't contacted the other guy, and because of lies he told her, doesn't really want to have anything to do with him anyway.

After some intensive marriage counseling in Aug-Oct 2006, things were better than they'd really ever been. Still not great or where they needed to be, but we were in a place where it looked like that was a very real possibility for the first time since we'd been married.

However, shortly after Christmas 2006, my W was failing to do the things she'd committed to do ... namely, stop making independent decisions and work with me on anything major (job choices, kids, etc.). Fast forward to now: we've spent the last 2.5 years in the same old pattern of her doing her own thing and me being constantly angry and resentful.

During this time, as a result of my GAL from back when I was DBing pretty heavily, I got in pretty good shape, got a great job after working very hard for years to get there, and everything apart from the marriage couldn't be better. I'm in my 40s but everyone thinks I'm a thirtysomething (ha), and while I'm no ladies man, and don't try to be, I've met a lot of seemingly nice women in the course of work, kids sports, and such and generally feel good about myself.

I decided that I gave it a pretty good shot, remained in the marriage and accepted her back and spent 3 years, the same length of time as the affair, trying to make it work. But now we are almost as distant as we've ever been with all the additional problems that accompany that. I decided that I'd had enough, that being alone and not always missing what we could have was better than this, so I decided to begin preparations to move out and pursue a divorce.

I presented this to my wife, very calmly and considerately, and assured her that I wasn't going to surprise her or try to hurt her in this. That she was important in my life (as the mother of my kids) and our family and I would give til it hurt in order to insure that I didn't leave her in a dire situation. I make a nice living for one family although it won't support two households adequately, so she's looking for a full-time job and I'm pursuing extra employment to insure nobody suffers unnecessarily through this.

I also recommitted myself to refrain from punishing her with references to the past...something I did pretty good at initially, but backslid on when she started failing to live up to her promises. So the anger and hurt is being dealt with so she doesn't suffer for that, either. In exchange I've asked her to be honest about how she feels with the knowledge that since I've pretty well given up on the marriage anyway, I no longer want or need to make her pay for the hurt she caused me. And that is true. I just found that when I let the anger go...really let it go...there was nothing left.

So now, as a result of that, she's talking like she still wants me and wants a chance for us to stay together. My response to that was that the time for that has come and gone because I don't want to get on the rollercoaster again and be disappointed...something she's done to me time and again. I told her I will miss her and always love her...but there just wasn't enough good stuff left...and far too much bad...for this to ever be anything but a disappointment.

The funny thing is that she's kind of DBing now She asked that I remain at home long enough for her to find a new job and suggested that during that time maybe we could get to know each other again, but I've pretty much "been there, done that" and feel like I have already moved on mentally and emotionally even if I'm still there physically.

And to be clear...I haven't engaged in any other relationships and to this day have remained faithful to her, so there's not another woman I'm pursuing or who is the focus of my attention...but I do want to be with someone who wants to be with me, and the thought of that appeals to me more than staying with my wife. I'm not getting any younger

I just wonder if I give it another shot, yet again, if I'm just being used and manipulated, or if I owe it to her and my kids, because of my responsibility and commitment, to never quit even though I'm just miserable there now.

[Concerned_Listener]

Tl,
What would be signs to you that she is working at the M? You said that she is sort of DB. Is she putting an honest effort into improving herself, or going thru the motions? I would think if she truly is working on herself and her issues, than she deserves another chance.

If she has another lapse into old patterns, decide for yourself and let her know what would break the marital contract. If she's not committed to working on herself, that will reveal itself to you, and you will have an easier time making a decision.

CL

[LoginName]

Alright. Let's get down to business. You helped me out, now I'll try to help you out.

Short and sweet summary, followed by analysis.
1. She wants to work on your marriage, she wants you to stay together. After everything, INCLUDING your self righteous, arrogant, holier than though attitude, giving ultimatums, she wants to stay with you. What does that say?
2. As you, and others, have told me, only you can know when it's time to go. Is it, for you? You're here asking advice. Why? Haven't made up your mind? The hell you haven't. You want your marriage to work and you want to be talked out of your "decision".
3. You, yes you, have to change, more. You say she agreed to not make decisions without you, etc etc. In other words, under duress (either do this or the marriage is over!) she agreed to whatever you said and she really tried to live up to it. She couldn't. It was unreasonable. Drop ALL conditions.

THIS is Gut check time. Do you have the strength to give, to let go, TO LOVE?

You know what though? If you're fed up, want to move on, feel, KNOW it's right, then do it. Just do it.

Now for more pontificating, and long winded philosophy.
Why do I say the things I do? Because I've been there too. I set what YOU said were good boundaries. They were 1) no contact with the OM 2) must agree to work on the marriage. See, I only had 2, and neither one was sustainable.

My W still talks to the OM (thank God he is in another state, although I feel she is so in love with me know that it wouldn't matter). For the first 2 years she came back to me, and the family, she said what she had to in order to keep me from kicking her out. She didn't mean it.

It took time, and maybe separation, for me to let go. Trust for no reason. Love for no good reason. She didn't deserve it (did I or anyone?).

Here's an idea. Ask your wife why. Why didn't she follow the (your?) rules? Ask her What. What does she want? What is she missing? Why does she feel that way? Then listen and accept the answer.

TL, you struck me as extremely strong (tough?) and wise. How tough are you?

Self defence, and self preservation. Maybe you feel like you'll die if you don't get the kind of relationship you want. Fine, if she isn't giving it to you, and can't, then move on. But what, at the core, do you really need? How much is a power play? How much is power important to you? What do you want? It comes down to you, partner.

Y'all used to tell me, it's not about me, it's about her. Meaning, she is thinking about herself and what she needs. She's figuring herself out.

Now, it's about you. Can you find yourself with her? Do you know yourself? What do you really NEED?

If you're not getting what you need, I suggest making one more attempt to really say what you need. If she doesn't or can't meet those needs, move on. Be prepared for her to say what she really needs too. If you can't or won't meet those needs, then be prepared for her to move on.

Good luck TL. You were a big part in saving my marriage. I had forgotten that I had an automatic email notification set up for any post you make. I'm glad I did. Good luck on your journey. It's long, hard and exciting.

[toughlover]

Thanks guys.

LN, it so good to hear from you. I confess I had forgotten about everyone here as I had to get off the boards cause I was drowning in this stuff.

I am so glad to hear things are going well for you. I thought and prayed for you often back then.

Bottom line: I just want out. Even if we could have a great marriage after many more months of doing whatever, I don't even want to pay that price. If I had unlimited funds I'd be moved out already. As it is we have a pretty good plan in place to get to that point which I estimate will take 6 to 9 months...what's mainly involved is her finding a full-time job. She actually already works full-time hours in a part-time job, so it's something she needed to do anyway...or quit working altogether, which clearly is no longer an option.

I don't remember all that I posted back then, but I didn't set out too many hoops for her to jump through, and the ones I did were guidelines I had to follow as well, and were arrived at with the help of our marriage counselor. They were mainly: no emotional or physical relationships with members of the opposite sex, including her OM, make major decision together with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and, of course, work on the relationship together.

Which if you think about it, is really what marriage is about anyway. We both agreed to that, and we both did an imperfect job in carrying that out because we're human.

Interestingly, cutting off contact with the OM was relatively easy for her, compared to the other guidelines.

This is not about power or control. For good or bad, it's just about me being very, very tired of the rollercoaster, and being tired of being the only giver here. So I'm getting off of the rollercoaster. We had a lot of potential, I think. But as with most of what had transpired in our marriage from day one, we've never been able to work together, never been on the same page. We couldn't/didn't do that even before we had all this crap to deal with.

[LoginName]

Thanks for all your help,TL. You brought out the 2X4 when I needed it.

You're choice, and if you feel it's the right one, in your gut, to move on, then I think you should move on.

So that's settled. Now what?

It's possible that you could meet someone who would be on the same page as you, and could work together in a way that you long for. My guess is that it's unlikely. Or rather, any one else would be different in some ways from your wife and the same in some ways. So, best case, you'd have say... 10 years? of bliss and then find out that the new person has there own issues, or their own issues in a relationship with you. Still, 10 years would be fun. 5 would be great.

My life is strange, as all of ours are. My wife is still in AR and I'm in CO. My son just left for college. If I could find a job in AR, I'd move down there. I'm working on that.

In the meantime, my W and I worked on our M via phone, mainly, and made some progress, but there was more than once where I said that I'd had enough, it wasn't worth it, time to move on. And, I think that would have been an OK decision, for both of us. I especially thought that way when I'd meet someone, hit it off with them, obvious attraction on both sides - and I'd think about all the promise of a new relationship, all the possible joy. But thanks to you especially, I vowed that I wouldn't follow that path until I was sure I was done with this M.

And, at times to my disappointment, my W would say the right thing, do the right thing, and I'd know that I wasn't done.

It wasn't just her trying to please me, and I really hope that's not what she was doing. It was her speaking her heart and me listening. And me speaking my heart and feeling that she finally heard me.

I think I did 2 things. I kept finding out that out of the list of things I thought I needed, only one or two mattered and in ways that were different than how I has assumed. And, I tried to have a positive interpretation of all she did and said. Before the bomb, she might say something affectionate and I'd feel it was like giving a rotten potato to a starving man - too little, too late, and not good enough. Now, I hear what she is saying, and feel that she is trying, and I love her for it, and accept it. I still check my gut and ask am I getting what I need, 'cause I'm not going to sacrifice or martyr myself again. And so far, my gut says, yeah, you're getting what you need, so relax and enjoy.

But that's me. I almost left, or quit. And I think I can understand why you, or anyone, would. I think it's the right decision in some situations. If you truly aren't getting what you need, time to move on. No one should be a martyr.

I really got a lot out of the book The Passionate Marriage. My therapist recommended it. What I got out of it (hope it's what the author intended)was that 1) it's not only OK to leave a marriage, knowing that you can is important to a healthy marriage 2) we are all terribly alone. Get used to it, deal with it, embrace it. 3) it takes a lot of self comforting and strength to grow, but it's worth it in the end. 4) most people don't or can't grow beyond a certain point. I could go on, but that's enough for now. Maybe you'll read it and maybe it will speak to you too. As I said, I got a lot out of it, and it's helped me in many ways, not just my relationship. I would use it in any new relationship I was in.

I'm always verbose, but only because this is important stuff.

Again, good luck, make your decision, you know what you need. I feel sorry for your W, if she's in love with you and wants your M to work but just can't seem to be the person you want. But, again, no one should be a martyr. She deserves better than that too.

I hope you share your thoughts and your decision. Best wishes.

[whatdidido]

It's like you are asking if it is ok that you leave your wife. You even say that there is a possibility that you could figure it out, and it would be good, but that you are just tired. Well, marriage is hard work. It always will be. Especially if you are wanting improvements in your marriage, or if you are always striving for more...which most people in relationships do.

Think about this: If you leave, and find another, would you want that person to some day say, "I'm tired. It's too much work. THere are no guarantees. I want out," to you?

You say you love her. If you do, then your answer is in your words. Just love her.

[cat03]

ToughL!! LoginN)))))))))))))) my fav people!! aww, how good to see you, though I wish it were for other reasons that you my dear TL are posting.

Boy, what can I say to you TL, you have worked hard for about 3plus years and now you think there is nothing left... if her effords seem 100% true, does that stir anything in your heart?

... But as with most of what had transpired in our marriage from day one, we've never been able to work together, never been on the same page.

Be careful when you use the word never, dont' want to sound like those crazy MLC'ers

I'm obviously pro working it out... but I'm also for having a limit, and there is a time when enough is enough and something has to change... just be careful how to go about it. Perhpas you just need to be away for a while you know? remember, love is not a feeling, it's a choice....

My earnest prayers that you make the right decision dear friend, huge crushing hugs your way)))))))

[LoginName]

Cat, nice to hear from you.
And good advice. My sitch is working out, and getting better. I'm physically separated from my W.

TL, maybe you need some time and space for yourself now. I remember a book called something like controlled separation which suggested just that.

If you're still out there, TL, wishing you the best

[Aud31]

Hey LN--you sound like you're in a much different place than when we last heard from you.

TL, I see a lot of myself in you...wanting a deeper connection, feeling like you're giving your all--and maybe a bit more than the other, fighting off the nagging feeling that you're settling, still trying to wrap your head around the distinction between being self-righteous and standing up for your beliefs and personal boundaries. It can certainly be exhausting. I'm not quite as far gone as you, still letting what is be enough for now. I dread the day it no longer is.

Only you can know when you've just had enough. I'll add my prayers to those of the lovely Cat for you to make the right decision for you and your family. Miracles happen every day.

[*KS*Chick*]

LIN how're you doing?