Along those lines, why not give him the bills? I'm not sure I understand why you haven't. I mean, since he moved out and all and since you are concerned that you two are going so deep into debt that you cannot breathe, it seems to me that it would be appropriate that he take the bills and handle paying them. Takes the stress off of you and puts it back where it belongs, no?
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
It is a consideration. Right now he is out of town so it is on me. I'm not sure which way to go on it. Ultimately, I think I need to be in charge of my own financial well being but as of now, that is not totally feasible.
I didn't give him the bills because he basically refused to take them and I didn't want to fight.
Honey, you might need a helmet now b/c I have a few 2 x 4s coming your way now...you said you have "bigger fish to fry" than making him pay the bills. You are inserting yourself as the nagging middleman who gets to beg and pressure him...how's that working out for you? And What's bigger than the financial security of your children right now? Oh, wait, I know. Your fear of being alone. Your abandonment issues are the biggest thing going on here, imho. I think Your fear of abandonment is ruling you.
Interesting about your early behavior w/ h. It was working, so why'd you quit it? He was so uncomfortable with your relative unavailability & you stopped your 180s, That is a FLAG to me.
Specific advice... I would stay dark with him. When he has the kids, BE GONE. Have things to do and places to go. Let him deal with being a Disneyland daddy. If he asks you to stick around, don't be able to do so at first at all, and without advance notice, IF AT ALL, and then IF YOU WANT TO, tell him to arrange something fun for the whole family b/c you're not going to babysit him while he "parents" his own kids. That's just weird b/c how on earth can YOU possibly move on with your own life and career if he sabotages you this way? So The rare times he's available to be with the kids, you have to watch him watch them? What?? Sooo you can't ever make a move without his permission, or at any personal cost to him? Why are YOU letting this happen in your life? These are choices YOU are making as well as your h...
You talk about your dread of divorce and childhood issues a lot but to me, this is plain old fear along with huge self esteem issues FOR YOU. (We'll stipulate that your h has major baggage....major). And maybe he'll work on those issues of his, and maybe he won't... but you said he is "reachable" and will go to c, but what he said was that he went for YOUR stuff, not his. How reachable is that? Oh, it's not. It's total lack of insight on his part and lack of accountability for change or the need for it. As for your own childhood issues, don't you find it curious that you chose THIS type of man as your mate? I'm not bashing you but can you see that the lifestyle you have helped to actually create for your children, seems to be mirroring the instability YOU had as a child? Do you see the pattern?
I'm a big believer in c when the patient is ready to change themselves. Seems to me you went for your h to "see the light" and you wanted instructions from the c on that topic. That does not happen anymore if it ever did. If you want that, try a pastor or priest. When I read your comments about how Unhelpful it has been for you to get therapy, it struck me. True, my h and I went as a couple to a few and none seemed to make a difference to my h, until much later, (after he wanted it to work and made that quite clear). Your h does not want to change. Anyhow, I felt a semi-false note in something you said about how useless they were to you. B/C to me what you really want from a c, and maybe from this site, is something you know in your head cannot happen - yet you cling almost a bit childishly to it...and that is you want us (or someone) to tell you how to fix your H.You want us to show you how to change him. YOU CANNOT CHANGE HIM....(read that again and out loud for emphasis. Not sure you believe it.) Yes you can change yourself, and when one person in a two person R changes, the R changes by definition. So all you can do is what we've all been saying: Focus on you. GAL. For you.
I don't know if you are in some sort of psychological cycle wherein you are recreating your childhood but this time, your daddy won't leave you...or what...but it's not working. It is also unhealthy for you and it's not at all what will bring about the very thing you say you want for your kids. Do you really think clinging to this M the way it is now, is actually a likely way to get the dream family life you wanted, and have "persistently pursued"? The frequent poll taking, requests for yet more opinions on exactly what to say on each little facet of the R is part of this cycle. One statement won't ruin your M. It has taken a lot of crazy enabling to get here.
I will hear you gain some important insights one day, but then you backpedal when you realize how dysfunctional something sounds in your own sitch. You cover and explain for him, or simply don't go there if the topic reveals too much of what you have really been enduring. I understand that. But I also see through it. I'm here to help YOU, and maybe your M will be helped as a byproduct. But DBing is not about saving marriages at all costs, and even if it were, there would be many that are simply not salvageable. I am not saying your m is hopeless, but I am going out on a limb and saying that your M as it is today, is not worth saving. I'm so very sorry to say that, but deep down you know this is true. I think you have one of those situations that requires a walking away by YOU before your h will awaken, if he's able to at all. THIS SITCH, this M you have and his behaviors have to stop and he won't stop it himself. He can't or won't. Does not matter which! Does not matter why!
He told you he wants to do what he wants; he is acting like a single man who has kids from a "previous relationship"....Sometimes he calls and sometimes he does not, sometimes he stays away, unless he feels like coming to your place, whenever he feels like it, and vulgarly asks for one sided sex... and you put up with this endlessly, and you worry about finances, so that I'm left wondering what the hell you are getting out of this M at all? There is no security of any kind, financial emotional, physical, etc. What you may have had in the past is no longer. Stop remembering that for now. It only confuses as it keeps you from dealing with what IS.
And If a behavior is not acceptable, stop accepting it! (You asked a man here on this site, this question: "how can I make h see that his behavior is unacceptable?" And the man said "by action"....) I think you already knew the answer to that question and it made me sad to see it in writing from you.
Fixating on him and what will fix or change him is such a waste of energy that could be better spent elsewhere. Like with your kids, or on your future. What would you be doing with your life if you weren't spending all your time on him?
What do you make of your decision making and follow through? I mean, you've been told the same thing by different people and you often express agreement. But then days later the same issue is raised. Maybe if you can explain why you stopped being dark in the first place, in light of how well it seemed to be going, would be a good start for you to ask yourself. Then we can figure out the part about lack of follow through.
I would love to know you are seeing a good c or getting DB coaching, despite your dim views of T's and C's. Or maybe you could see a life coach. I'm not being sarcastic. It's just that you are going in so many directions and spinning your wheels, and by far putting most of your energy on trying to fix HIM and not you. And you can't change him. And you won't accept that. So you think you are stuck. But you know, you do have choice in this. As scary as that sounds, It's time to exercise some choice, or forever lose the ability to live your own life or give your kids what you say you wanted for them. Stop letting fear of abandonment rule your life. Ironically, it creates the very thing you fear the most.
Keep posting and try hard to listen and follow through with choices you make. When something works, don't stop it, and when something does not work, don't continue it. DB 101. Enforce the boundaries. How? With action. Yes that is scary. But so is your m and it's direction right now. You need to wake up sweetie. All the advice you want to give others...but won't take yourself. Why? You're taking scraps from his table and seeing "improvement"....really?
And then to say that the C's and T's are useless. You're right, they're useless. They cannot change your H. They can help YOU change, if you want to. That's what they're for, and that's a choice for you to make too. Lots and lots of choices you have...but you have to make them, and stick with them. We'll support you in that. Just don't stay stuck so long. It's killing you, your kids are not safer this way or more secure and I even think your h is worse off this way.
Last but not least at all, DB 101-- GAL. Really. For you for once.
((( j )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Helmet is on and I just can't tell you how right on you are...plus in conjunction with today's events, well...I thank you.
H called me furious because he is at a wedding and just got an email from my sister basically telling him what's up. She was respectful but aggressive and even commented on how confusing it is that he comes around but wont sleep here.
I told him that he should deal with her.
We subsequently texted and talked and I articulated that this issue is bigger than $$$ and that from the outside, it can easily appear that he is so removed from what is happening here. And that the $$ is not about him making more money but how we handle it and blah blah blah and he finished text with "Yes. I am f***ing" trying my hardest. Then he called me and apologized just said it was too much too take her judgement and that he is skipping dinners and trying to muster up as much work as he can and make it happen. And, that there is nothing wrong with Grandparents buying clothes or paying for summer camp, the point sis was making was that he should not take it for granted that my parents will take care of his family....Anyway, the lesson learned once again. F*CKING FUTILE. All of my words, futile, wasted, useless. So, here we are at your thread and having read the words on the email he sent sis "I'm sorry it didn't work out with AK." "I tried"...well, there's my 2x4! And I realize his actions have illustrated ambivalence but, ouch, no movement in his position, no weight, no we'll see what happens, just some trite reference to our 13 year R. Anyway, that can always change but, for now, YES, I am on my own. I have been a wonderful wife to him for 4 months and I know people wait much longer but it seems I veered off with the 180 on that...I am proud of my self-control and patience and diligence in not letting him get a rise out of me. BUT, my actions, other than the sex haven't changed enough (for me). This is the difficulty, I've wanted to undo the damage I did in R by living it out differently. I had shut down to him in R and it is painful to shut him out again...gives him carte blanche. I don't disagree that it must be done.
Part of my spinning is that I know I only have my perception. That is where AJ was making me think...is there another way to look at this? Is my experience of this just subjective and not really what happened or is happening? I think I keep trying to nail it down.
A&K,
Honey, you might need a helmet now b/c I have a few 2 x 4s coming your way now...you said you have "bigger fish to fry" than making him pay the bills. You are inserting yourself as the nagging middleman who gets to beg and pressure him...how's that working out for you? And What's bigger than the financial security of your children right now? Oh, wait, I know. Your fear of being alone. Your abandonment issues are the biggest thing going on here, imho. I think Your fear of abandonment is ruling you.
The bigger fish meant that I cannot rely on him. And that is a big one to deal with.
Abandonment? Yes, I don't want to give up on him. I don't want to be alone with my kids and try to work and make room for an eventual new R and take care of kids and get old and and and. I want this M and family to be the most important thing in the world to H and that will not happen...now, maybe ever.
Interesting about your early behavior w/ h. It was working, so why'd you quit it? He was so uncomfortable with your relative unavailability & you stopped your 180s, That is a FLAG to me.
Well, I stopped, because I thought he was reconnecting and I thought I was waaaay further along than I was. I wanted the intimacy, the family time. "Working" didn't mean I was happy, it meant I had his attention and then I wanted to keep it. I still keep my life relatively private, I just have been so available and open to spending time together. Even the date thing, one of my greatest regrets in R is that I didn't go out with him more when he asked me to and have more fun...I want so badly to fix that. But, it was for the same reasons, that reality wasn't being dealt with.
Specific advice... I would stay dark with him. When he has the kids, BE GONE. Have things to do and places to go. Let him deal with being a Disneyland daddy. If he asks you to stick around, don't be able to do so at first at all, and without advance notice, IF AT ALL, and then IF YOU WANT TO, tell him to arrange something fun for the whole family b/c you're not going to babysit him while he "parents" his own kids. That's just weird b/c how on earth can YOU possibly move on with your own life and career if he sabotages you this way? So The rare times he's available to be with the kids, you have to watch him watch them? What?? Sooo you can't ever make a move without his permission, or at any personal cost to him? Why are YOU letting this happen in your life? These are choices YOU are making as well as your h...
Oh no. I have gone out on my own. On his days with the kids, I do not call, email, question or get involved. It is the spontaneous times that he comes into our space or we do things together. I do not involve myself in his alloted time with them ever. He has offered to pick them up from school or spend extra time which I have accepted. And we have planned family time (though it seems confusing for kids). And, he calls every day for them at least once a day.
You talk about your dread of divorce and childhood issues a lot but to me, this is plain old fear along with huge self esteem issues FOR YOU. (We'll stipulate that your h has major baggage....major). And maybe he'll work on those issues of his, and maybe he won't... but you said he is "reachable" and will go to c, but what he said was that he went for YOUR stuff, not his. How reachable is that? Oh, it's not. It's total lack of insight on his part and lack of accountability for change or the need for it. As for your own childhood issues, don't you find it curious that you chose THIS type of man as your mate? I'm not bashing you but can you see that the lifestyle you have helped to actually create for your children, seems to be mirroring the instability YOU had as a child? Do you see the pattern?
Yes, I see the pattern, of course I do and it makes me want to flog myself...now what to do about it? No solution really fixes that for my kids.
I'm a big believer in c when the patient is ready to change themselves. Seems to me you went for your h to "see the light" and you wanted instructions from the c on that topic. That does not happen anymore if it ever did. If you want that, try a pastor or priest. When I read your comments about how Unhelpful it has been for you to get therapy, it struck me. True, my h and I went as a couple to a few and none seemed to make a difference to my h, until much later, (after he wanted it to work and made that quite clear). Your h does not want to change. Anyhow, I felt a semi-false note in something you said about how useless they were to you. B/C to me what you really want from a c, and maybe from this site, is something you know in your head cannot happen - yet you cling almost a bit childishly to it...and that is you want us (or someone) to tell you how to fix your H.You want us to show you how to change him. YOU CANNOT CHANGE HIM....(read that again and out loud for emphasis. Not sure you believe it.) Yes you can change yourself, and when one person in a two person R changes, the R changes by definition. So all you can do is what we've all been saying: Focus on you. GAL. For you.
I've gotten a lot out of therapy but only when solution focused. His counselor, I believe he saw for himself and then he stopped. His C did say that with his R with his mother, I didn't stand a chance. Anyway, yes, I have an agenda, I want him to see the light and I know intellectually that is asinine and unrealistic. The GAL and focusing on me is definitely what I need AND, I need to know how to handle him, texts, conversations etc. He told sis that we are in a really good place right now...uh, ya, he has a devoted wife AND can do whatever he wants, nice. He is not going to just accept a huge shift without questioning me and/or punishing me (just making sure I know it is my fault or it could have worked or...) I need to know what my position is and be able to articulate it and it hurts to turn him away. Part of me wants to be "friends."
I don't know if you are in some sort of psychological cycle wherein you are recreating your childhood but this time, your daddy won't leave you...or what...but it's not working. It is also unhealthy for you and it's not at all what will bring about the very thing you say you want for your kids. Do you really think clinging to this M the way it is now, is actually a likely way to get the dream family life you wanted, and have "persistently pursued"? The frequent poll taking, requests for yet more opinions on exactly what to say on each little facet of the R is part of this cycle. One statement won't ruin your M. It has taken a lot of crazy enabling to get here.
I will hear you gain some important insights one day, but then you backpedal when you realize how dysfunctional something sounds in your own sitch. You cover and explain for him, or simply don't go there if the topic reveals too much of what you have really been enduring. I understand that. But I also see through it. I'm here to help YOU, and maybe your M will be helped as a byproduct. But DBing is not about saving marriages at all costs, and even if it were, there would be many that are simply not salvageable. I am not saying your m is hopeless, but I am going out on a limb and saying that your M as it is today, is not worth saving. I'm so very sorry to say that, but deep down you know this is true. I think you have one of those situations that requires a walking away by YOU before your h will awaken, if he's able to at all. THIS SITCH, this M you have and his behaviors have to stop and he won't stop it himself. He can't or won't. Does not matter which! Does not matter why!
He told you he wants to do what he wants; he is acting like a single man who has kids from a "previous relationship"....Sometimes he calls and sometimes he does not, sometimes he stays away, unless he feels like coming to your place, whenever he feels like it, and vulgarly asks for one sided sex... and you put up with this endlessly, and you worry about finances, so that I'm left wondering what the hell you are getting out of this M at all? There is no security of any kind, financial emotional, physical, etc. What you may have had in the past is no longer. Stop remembering that for now. It only confuses as it keeps you from dealing with what IS.
One-sided sex? It was pretty mutual last time. But, I get what you are saying, it is on his terms and when he wants it. I don't know what I get out of it, I need to think about that. Certainly some financial security as he makes decent money. I suppose I look at my alternative and it doesn't look so good but that is my insecurity. Even with the kids, is he doing such a bad job? I don't even know anymore what I think. I have felt that his leaving me in the way he did and blaming me and taunting me and being so careless hurt them. But, in reality, he loves them and is leaving ME and I'm pissed about it and I think that if he loved them so much, he would try harder to stay in M and make it work, especially since we get along and have the sexual attraction. But, he doesn't love me right now. He does love his kids. Could it be that he just isn't handling all of this the way I think he should and I'm torn up about it? Doesn't matter, I need to take the same action, right?
And If a behavior is not acceptable, stop accepting it! (You asked a man here on this site, this question: "how can I make h see that his behavior is unacceptable?" And the man said "by action"....) I think you already knew the answer to that question and it made me sad to see it in writing from you.
Fixating on him and what will fix or change him is such a waste of energy that could be better spent elsewhere. Like with your kids, or on your future. What would you be doing with your life if you weren't spending all your time on him?
What do you make of your decision making and follow through? I mean, you've been told the same thing by different people and you often express agreement. But then days later the same issue is raised. Maybe if you can explain why you stopped being dark in the first place, in light of how well it seemed to be going, would be a good start for you to ask yourself. Then we can figure out the part about lack of follow through.
I would love to know you are seeing a good c or getting DB coaching, despite your dim views of T's and C's. Or maybe you could see a life coach. I'm not being sarcastic. It's just that you are going in so many directions and spinning your wheels, and by far putting most of your energy on trying to fix HIM and not you. And you can't change him. And you won't accept that. So you think you are stuck. But you know, you do have choice in this. As scary as that sounds, It's time to exercise some choice, or forever lose the ability to live your own life or give your kids what you say you wanted for them. Stop letting fear of abandonment rule your life. Ironically, it creates the very thing you fear the most.
Keep posting and try hard to listen and follow through with choices you make. When something works, don't stop it, and when something does not work, don't continue it. DB 101. Enforce the boundaries. How? With action. Yes that is scary. But so is your m and it's direction right now. You need to wake up sweetie. All the advice you want to give others...but won't take yourself. Why? You're taking scraps from his table and seeing "improvement"....really?
And then to say that the C's and T's are useless. You're right, they're useless. They cannot change your H. They can help YOU change, if you want to. That's what they're for, and that's a choice for you to make too. Lots and lots of choices you have...but you have to make them, and stick with them. We'll support you in that. Just don't stay stuck so long. It's killing you, your kids are not safer this way or more secure and I even think your h is worse off this way.
I think that identifying what "works" alludes me. I thought what I was doing was working (baby steps). I though the little connections and the intimacy were working. That gets so confusing. Obviously, there is no scenario in which someone just instantaneously becomes utopian. I thought as painful as it was that we were making progress in some areas. So, the fear is also, what if I am wrong? What if I could just stop stressing, get a job and let it evolve? What if I could have just been here for him and taken care of myself at the same time. Is there any path that doesn't involve pain and discipline? Ok, so, there's my problem, I want to think that just being a better person and working on myself, while allowing him to do as he pleases will work... Cr*P, I already need another 2x4. I am being honest with you. This is where my mind goes..."if I wasn't so neurotic and controlling and dependent, if I could just chill and let him do what he's gonna do, it would work out."
Last but not least at all, DB 101-- GAL. Really. For you for once.
Ok! He is out of town so it makes it a bit easier...although, yes, I spin even when he calls for the kids. How about a 4x8?
Seriously, I don;t take it for granted what you are telling me, I want to be honest and start following through.
I will try to scrape up $ for DB coach, but have so many bills, obviously.
Oh, last thing. When my kids want to know why daddy wont sleep here or make references to us all being together, I feel like hell. And, I wonder is it better to have NO family time together so they can process it or for me to be cool and spend that time together? So painful to take that away from them. They still see us as being intact.
What to tell the kids when you are NOT sure it's over??? A toughie. Don't say "Divorce" until if and when you know. You can say at some point, "mommy and daddy are taking a time out"...?? Just a thought. I told our d11 (then d8-9) WHEN she asked whether we were getting a div, "I sure hope not b/c I really love your dad and I know he loves me"....and told her when she asked if we were going to move again (very frightening), "I'll always put your happiness first when it comes to what we're going to do" and then stressed what would remain the same, like our house and her school and friends, etc. which for us was true.
(( j ))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
So, God help me, if it is darkest before the dawn, I'm there. Those words, past tense referring to him having "tried," they really got to me.
I am noticing that I have to blame either him or me. Right now, is it because I feel so rejected that I think he must really be awesome (any club that would have me as a member...). How do I fix this, forgive myself, learn to love myself. When I turned 30, I thought I was there and now, I feel like an empty canvas, but with two kids watching me and needing me and even more, watching him.
Yes, I'm sobbing and complaining and I'm nearly done...I promise.
Thank you. I don't know that all those things (school etc will stay the same), lots to figure out but most of their questions are about Daddy and what is happening to him and why he can't sleep here and then they talk about our marriage and us being together etc. We have confused the bleep out of them. Dammit.
Cr*P, I already need another 2x4. I am being honest with you. This is where my mind goes..."if I wasn't so neurotic and controlling and dependent, if I could just chill and let him do what he's gonna do, it would work out."