Went to lunch with W and she started by casually stating that she just wanted to see where 'we' were at.
I stated that I've learned a lot about what kind of man I want to become, realize that is neither the man I was before the marriage or during, and that I've made huge strides in moving toward that goal. She admitted she was still confused and uncertain and recognized that I was probably farther ahead of her in the growth process.
We talked about her upcoming vacation with her GF to Greece. I told her my travel dates were a week after she returned. She assumed I was making a family trip, but said no, I'm taking a solo vacation. She asked where to, and I said that I didn't need to explain myself just that I was taking a trip on my own. This irritated her in that I was being secretive while she was being open and honest, to which I chuckled in a mocking tone (given her repeated lies and backstabbing that she really doesn't think I've heard about through the grapevine). She honestly thinks that she is successfully 'playing her cards close' and being perfectly civil with me. Anyway, I finally disclosed I was going to Dublin for six days on my own (180), without a tour group, and that although it was outside of my comfort zone I looked forward to it. She seemed genuinely surprised that I would travel alone.
As the conversation progressed, a few backslides irritated her, such as me stating that it would be easier to simply cut our losses and start over with someone new although it would not be the right thing to do nor would it resolve our own personal issues; and that during the last several years combined with the time since the bomb that we have both lost respect for each other. She seemed very surprised that I would have any reason to have lost respect for her. She tried to push me for details about what I thought she did wrong and I wouldn't offer any - saying that I wasn't here to pick apart the problems of our marriage, especially in the middle of a restaurant, and that I am focusing on my goals and my improvements as I identify mistakes that I made over the last few years. I repeated that filing would be the easy way out, but not the one I choose because I'm willing to work very hard if I know there is something to gain by it.... worst case, I'll be happy with me. She quickly jumped to 'Should we just file then?'. I said 'No, but it would be the easy way out. I'm saying I need to work on me first, and you need to work on your first.'.
I also told her that as long as she was in another relationship, that I thought it a waste of my time to discuss our R when she wasn't serious about working at it nor would she respect what I had to say. She appeared to very carefully hold back her thoughts to this statement and bite her tongue. I did try to acknowledge her points of view and validate when I could during the whole conversation, but also used your line of 'I'm not telling you what to do - just how I feel.'
We talked about counselors and how she wasn't convinced any would help, rather attempt to push her into accepting or doing something she didn't want to do -- such as go back to a miserable marriage. I suggested that interviewing counselors is necessary to find the one that supports your own goals, not theirs, and to quickly discard a counselor that was taking you in a direction you didn't want to go. W seemed to understand that concept, but I doubt she'll do anything about it and continue to not put in any real effort at self-discovery.
At some point, I apparently came off as condescending and controlling, likely after I stated that she needed to figure out things for herself and get the help she needed before we could work on 'us'. She proceeded to point out a couple examples of me putting her down during the marriage and generally stated that I was controlling - escalating into her telling me "F*** You!" in the middle of this busy restaurant. I paused, then smiled - to which she laughed, and I responded with 'Feels good doesn't it?'. "Yes, it does." "That's what I'm talking about." Unfortunately, she didn't get what I was talking about because I was 'beating around the bush' so much she lost what I was trying to get across to her. Despite trying different angles but still not provided her any constructive criticism, I don't think I ever got my message across clearly, which should have been "I'm not going to work as hard as I have in understanding and improving myself only to just hand it over to you without any introspective effort on your (W) part." (hindsight)
She did state clearly that she was happier now and that she didn't foresee going back to a broken foundation of a marriage, nor putting glue on the large cracks.
I parted with "I don't want you to file tomorrow and I don't plan to file tomorrow, as I am willing to work very hard for establishing a new foundation, since the old foundation is broken and I will not return to that, but only if we are both willing to put in the work necessary to improve each of us as individuals first." She was quiet for a minute, and I stood up to leave and simply said "Give it some thought."
Pros: I showed a firm stance and didn't back down much (180). I alerted her to the fact that I lost respect for her also -- not just her losing respect for me. I planted the seed about properly interviewing counselors. Let her know that I was going to take a European trip by myself (180).
Cons: I got a little flustered by her anger about me being evasive in providing constructive criticism or specific examples so that 'she had something to work on'. Perhaps the condescending and controlling portion of the conversation obscured the messages I got across early on. I need to find a balance between the NMMNG and the controlling behavior / comments. I didn't get my point across successfully that she needs to start working on figuring herself out before we can work on what went wrong in the marriage.
"I was trying to get across that I felt we needed to work on ourselves further before attempting to figure out the problems with the marriage. I do understand that there are some close ties between the two, and believe we'll be able to take in each others' criticisms when we have a better perspective of what is most important to each of us. I don't want to distract our current personal efforts with emotionally charged discussion that will turn negative if we are not able to handle it on our own. I failed to get that message across and came off as evasive and controlling. My sincere apologies to you for not being clear."
Not sure if that helped, was unnecessary, or a backslide.
Good job! How do you feel? I know for me even though it was hard and such a change from my normal behavior I felt so much better and empowered after owning up to my feelings and putting them out there. Sounds like you had a good night. Keep it up!
Pros: I showed a firm stance and didn't back down much (180). I alerted her to the fact that I lost respect for her also -- not just her losing respect for me. I planted the seed about properly interviewing counselors. Let her know that I was going to take a European trip by myself (180).
Cons: I got a little flustered by her anger about me being evasive in providing constructive criticism or specific examples so that 'she had something to work on'. Perhaps the condescending and controlling portion of the conversation obscured the messages I got across early on. I need to find a balance between the NMMNG and the controlling behavior / comments. I didn't get my point across successfully that she needs to start working on figuring herself out before we can work on what went wrong in the marriage.
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Personally, I think the whole thing was just PHENOMENAL, Mr NG. I mean "worthy-of-bookmarking" kinda stuff.
This, alone, really hit home for me:
Quote:
Despite trying different angles but still not provided her any constructive criticism, I don't think I ever got my message across clearly, which should have been "I'm not going to work as hard as I have in understanding and improving myself only to just hand it over to you without any introspective effort on your (W) part."
"I was trying to get across that I felt we needed to work on ourselves further before attempting to figure out the problems with the marriage. I do understand that there are some close ties between the two, and believe we'll be able to take in each others' criticisms when we have a better perspective of what is most important to each of us. I don't want to distract our current personal efforts with emotionally charged discussion that will turn negative if we are not able to handle it on our own. I failed to get that message across and came off as evasive and controlling. My sincere apologies to you for not being clear."
Not sure if that helped, was unnecessary, or a backslide.
Probably somewhere between "unnecessary" and "a backslide." Might've been better if you had ended it with "Or, you can just say F$%k you," and a winkey face.
W e-mailed me to tell that I did come across as controlling, that she couldn't go to work today due to panic attacks, and is putting the house on the market and filing for separation.
We'll see how it plays out. Surprisingly, I'm not sad about it, only that she gives up so easily (give or take a few years, that is) after I stand up for myself.
(DBers United...)