I'm going to quote the last few posts, and respond to Puppy's questions:
Originally Posted By: DCBHM
Apparently I didn't ruin her day after all. When I picked up D1, W's family told me she just left to go stay at OM's house all day - and she even told me that she was there and that I just needed to bring D1 to my house and she'd get her there.
Her family pretty much came out and said they know what is going on at this point, and I spoke to W for a few minutes before she left and asked her if she had any interest in seeing if the M could be saved at all. She said "No."
I told her I didn't expect anything different as far as an answer - but told her I'd at least like her to come clean with me about her relationship.
I asked how long it had been going on. She said "It hasn't been going on long." I told her I suspected since October/November and she said "No it wasn't going on before we separated." I told her "So you admit you have a relationship going on now?" She said "No I'm just talking about friendship." I said - "You two were friends long before our separation, as far back as August - so what do you mean by 'it hasn't been going on long'?"
Then she just said "I don't know. I'm just going to go."
So she still isn't being honest about it, and is very much entrenched in the fog, because I got video, etc. that is going to just add more. She was parked out front of his house the entire day.
Anyway, told my therapist it was just going to be me coming from now on.
I picked up "Not 'just friends'" today from the book store, so I hope to read that.
LRT/GAL is my only recourse at this point, and I'm going to be doing what I have to in order to win the 'war' that is ongoing as well.
It didn't really phase me at all talking to her though. I wasn't hurt, I wasn't angry. Just astonished that she is that far into the fog that she doesn't realize she is shooting herself in the foot legally - and we have deposition next Friday which is going to kill her case considering all the evidence I've got if she tries to lie.
I did ask her if she felt guilty at all, and she waited 10-15 seconds before answering "I dunno" and shrugging her shoulders.
Just... wow...
Originally Posted By: DCBHM
Based on my fogged conversation with W yesterday, and based on the fact that her family is enabling her A and thus is a de-facto condonation of the A, I have no choice but to focus on custody, going through with the D, and continuing in GAL and moving on.
I will be working with my therapist for a bit at least in trying to keep the door to reconciliation cracked. But at this point, W is flaunting her A in my face by spending the entire day at his house next door, half-way admitting to the A and then backtracking when I ask her directly with a "just friends" answer.
Anyone have any advice, or seem like I'm doing what I can do? I recorded her conversation and it is just astonishing how she basically admits to the A, and then backtracks a few minutes later saying "no I was just talking about being friends."
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
She's lying. About ALL of it.
All you can do at this point is gather/retain your evidence, lovingly detach, and lay out and enforce your boundaries and do your own GAL stuff (for you, not for her) and protect yourself legally. Is yours a "fault" or a "no-fault" state? Carrying on an affair with the next door neighbor, while her children are about, will not be looked kindly upon by a family court judge.
Puppy
Yeah I know she is lying. I can tell when her lips move, and she is quite horrible at it.
This is a 'fault' state and I already counter-filed on grounds of adultery.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
You may want to do a confront or a re-confront with her parents, using your evidence if you have to. You may not be able to stop the affair at this point, but you can probably get her to stop the DECEIT, which -- to my view -- is important. I had to do the same thing with my wife, as she was lying to her parents and our two adult daughters about her affair. I gave her a couple of months to come clean about it, and then finally threatened to show them my evidence if she didn't start at least telling them the TRUTH (after all, if their "love" is so "special," why not shout it from the rooftops???).
The thing is, if you are to move forward as a divorced couple, co-parenting your children, you CANNOT built that family upon a foundation of DECEIT. I told my wife "We've always told our children not to lie; how can we hold ourselves to any less of a standard?"
Are you SURE her parents are condoning a full PA, or are they buying into the "just friends" thing? My in-laws waffled back and forth several times, and seemed to believe whatever argument they heard LAST. It's understandable that they'd want to believe the best in their daughter, but sometimes confrontation and exposure has to be repeated with each incident.
Puppy
Today I filmed her and OM walking back to her car after she took D1 out of my house. Her mom acted like this morning she was going to come to my house with her to pick up D1, then decided not to. I called her mom and filled her in that I got her on video again, she started yelling they are just friends and that W was just visiting OM's mother, said "We've got a lot of stuff on you too!"... then hung up on me.
So I'm guessing denial. I'm probably going to cut out the filming, etc. W is just flaunting it at this point - and I just don't see the "Oh we are just friends." angle flying in front of anyone with common sense.
I'm not sure what they have got on me that isn't fiction. I know what the truth is. Assuming she can argue that I've done something during one of our custody swaps - but I record all of those, so if they picked a date I have it archived somewhere.
She isn't even parking at my house for the custody swaps now, just parking at his. I don't get the thought process.
Last edited by DCBHM; 03/29/0909:37 PM.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
I'm going to include a copy of my transcript here so you can see how the fog conversation went down yesterday:
Originally Posted By: TRANSCRIPT
*begin transcript at 6:35 on file*
H: Anyhoo, uh, as far as the counseling stuff with that one lady uh, I did talk to her and she was asking what I was interested in, in terms of whether it was working on the marriage or whether it was just divorce mediation counseling or whatever and I told her my feelings on both. And she said it kind of seemed like I was pretty ambivalent, that I wasn’t really sure which way to go on it because –
WAW: mmm hmmm
H: - you know after telling her everything but, I don’t know the way, there is still an opportunity at this point, you know where if we went in there I think the purpose of the first, if we went in there together, I’ll just give you a heads up, but I would say that it’s an option right now to work on the marriage – but you know I would like to ask you to end your other relationship if we are going to do that. And if you don’t want to, I’ll be honest with you right now; you know I’m doing my best to keep my heart open to you –
WAW: mmm hmmm
H: - but, eventually I’m just, I’m not going to be there. And that’s the way it generally goes, by the time that the other relationship runs its course, the person that has been betrayed has already moved on. And you know there’s different types of love there is you know, once you’ve been with somebody for a while it’s not quite as strong, but it’s the love that lasts, that at the very least it keeps you going, and there is the love that, is just so overpowering that makes it seem like that’s the real relationship. But if it’s not based on anything solid, if it’s based on lies, deception, and running around and sneaking around and doing things like that, eventually when you try to make that into a real relationship there is no foundation and its gonna end. So I mean, I’m going to ask you straight up if we went to counseling and I told you I wanted to work on the marriage is that something you are interested in at all right now?
WAW: No.
H: Well, that’s all I needed to know there is not any point in going then. You know, I’ll go to her, and kind of talk out the, things there. And it’s not something where, I know you probably have, I don’t know if you even have any guilt at all about what you’ve done. I mean do you have any at all?
WAW: *inaudible and a shrug*
H: Yes, no, I mean do you feel guilty? WAW: *made sounds that indicated she didn’t know – and shrugged*
H: *repeats sound* I mean, you’ve got to let me know something I just don’t know… in any event, it doesn’t matter to me even if you did feel guilty it’s not something that I’m going to sit there and, you know its deal with it and then move on and leave it in the past – but you are not the one that needs to change anything, there is a lot of things that I would have to do for you to be happy in the relationship – because I don’t think you’d have done that without being unhappy in some ways, but if we did work on the marriage, and that’s an if, I would have to do a lot to, it’s not just you. But… you know it… I don’t know. And I didn’t expect anything different as far as an answer but, things change. I would appreciate it though if you would not lie anymore. That if something is going on just tell me. I mean… be honest about it. That’s all I would really ask from you I think we’d get along a lot better if you just went ahead and told me how long it’s been going on and just let it go. Is that something you think you can do?
WAW: It hasn’t been going on long.
H: How long has it been going on? I think since October.
WAW: uh uh.
H: Then how long has it been going on?
WAW: Not while we… stayed married.
H: It’s been inappropriate since well before then. It’s been inappropriate since at least September. Because I’ve filled out a timeline and I’ve filled up about 17 pages of things that happened and witnesses and everything else. Going all the way back to August and September. I don’t think anything was… you know… and you know we’re still married now, you know this is not something that looks good… you doing that.
WAW: I’m going to get her (talking about D1)
H: Well no, I mean at what point because I’m not believing you because he was sneaking out of the house in December before you ever mentioned divorce I saw that. Can you admit that he was sneaking out, that you were lying that night? I mean…
WAW: No.
H: You understand, the damage is done from the lying it’s not from the uh, it’s not from what actually happened but... and also know that you’re not going to… whenever you do admit to any truth, it’s not going to be the full extent of it because you’re trying to downplay it or you’re trying to say “oh well there was just a kiss” when there was a lot more. So I mean just… think about it, be honest with me, because I’m not, I’m not gonna react any differently than I’m reacting now just… be honest. WAW: Okay.
H: But you do, you admit that there is a relationship going on now?
WAW: uh uh
H: What do you, well you said “It’s not been going on long” what do you mean by that?
WAW: We’ve been friends H…
H: You said “It’s not been going on long, nothing happened before when we were married.” What did you mean by that?
WAW: Friendship.
H: WAW, you’ve been friends since back, well before all that if it is supposedly friends.
WAW: I’m going to go. *She walked out the door.*
H: Well… we’ll see you tomorrow.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
I think that kind of shows how it's pointless to talk to a WAS thick in the fog. Lying, delusional, etc. I don't think there's much point in it, is there? Like talking to a wall, although actually that would prob. be less frustrating.
I just think their brains are like soup and not much gets in or out or whatever. I think you should stop the R talk as pointless. She's not going to admit what you want, and even if she did, then she would have many excuses as to why that's your fault! Just pointless.
I think you should just focus on the IC and focus on yourself for now.
I think you're right about stopping the videotaping and stuff. I can't imagine how that wouldn't be painful for you, and you prob. already have plenty of info/ammo. The stuff they have on you is probably either grossly exaggerated or just plain lies. My H several times has brought up how I'm not giving him info or appt. times for the kids and that's just not true. I now save copies of all the emails I send to him re: these so if he brings that up in court he'll look like the liar he is being. Karen
I believe she knows you are taping her and gathering evidence. She won't admit to anything. She will say it is only a friendship, and she has her family backing her on that so she doesn't lose her child. You may have this evidence, but can she say that it has always been a friendship? Because that is what she is planning on doing.
I believe she knows you are taping her and gathering evidence. She won't admit to anything. She will say it is only a friendship, and she has her family backing her on that so she doesn't lose her child. You may have this evidence, but can she say that it has always been a friendship? Because that is what she is planning on doing.
She should know by now. She can say whatever she wants - she told her family on Saturday that she was going to visit the guy's mom and was at his house all day. But I ran into the guy's mom at Wal-Mart and she had her whole family there minus OM and W. So... that chance encounter knocks a big hole in that alibi.
I'm sure she is planning on calling it a friendship - but she has been 'friends' with the neighbors since before we married in 2006, and she has been 'friends' with OM since March 2008 or so. It didn't become 'inappropriate' in my view until Fall 2008, but I did witness him sneaking out the back of my house on December 29, and when I confronted her she dropped the D-bomb.
Going to try and get her cell phone records and show a pattern of calls prior to our S as well - because I've got a long list of things I'll testify to that show an inappropriate relationship going a way back before the S.
And if it was a friendship... have the P.I. caught her on tape leaving my house, ditching her car 2 miles down the road, and riding back with OM to his house and spending the night. Then being filmed/witnessed kissing at the dropoff.
This was like 4 days after I had been served with D-filing.
Originally Posted By: InLikeFlynn
MIL still even with proof will just say its after the fact. What is the purpose now in trying to catch them when you appear to be divorcing?
Out of all the people in the world... she just so happens to meet and start dating my next door neighbor after we start the Divorce process? Even a 4-year old won't buy it. She can try to pretty it up with the "just friends" argument, but I've got too much.
I'm sure her attorney wouldn't have advised her to spend the entire weekend at OM's house - regardless of whether they were 'just friends'.
All the evidence I'm collecting show that it is an ongoing relationship - because I am going to tie OM's character around her neck while going for custody.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
And if it was a friendship... have the P.I. caught her on tape leaving my house, ditching her car 2 miles down the road, and riding back with OM to his house and spending the night. Then being filmed/witnessed kissing at the dropoff.
This was like 4 days after I had been served with D-filing.
I've been doing some soul-searching. W has basically been "twisting the knife" so-to-speak by flaunting her A in my face, knowing that her mother is impotent to stop it from happening - despite the fact that m.i.l. pays for W's cell phone, car insurance, food, shelter, etc.
This A is going to continue as long as I'm the 'fuel' for that fire. Even when I don't want to be - when I showed signs of going out, GAL, taking my daughter elsewhere and making clear I wasn't going to follow W's plan - she blatantly threw it in the open and said "Here I am - now you have to come back home to drop D1 off."
Yesterday she just walked into my home, made herself at home, saw all my 'spy' equipment set up at the window in terms of computer, cameras, etc. and then walked out after going through drawers, belongings, etc.
She doesn't live here any more - so that was bothersome. But I just kept my cool, and my attorney said she is probably trying to get me to react in some way so that she can call the police to get something to use against me.
I do record all of our interactions, so I'm being as cautious as possible, but I'm concerned that she was flaunting the A and OM to incite me to react in some way.
Probably bothers her more that I didn't even mention anything, just clicked 'record' on my camera.
But she is being pretty hostile when I'm not following 'her' plan, and I go off and do what 'I' choose to do that she has no control over. I think I threw off a real 'vibe' that I was moving on, because I told her I wouldn't need her to pack diaper bags any more because I had my own, and I had everything D1 needed with me, and I was doing just fine. Going to buy my own car seat now and send the message that I'm not going to rely on her for anything outside of passing her to me to leave during custody swaps - which will also prevent her from having to come in my house.
Which might be a necessity when I drop my second evidence bomb soon.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
She doesn't live here any more - so that was bothersome. But I just kept my cool, and my attorney said she is probably trying to get me to react in some way so that she can call the police to get something to use against me.
I do record all of our interactions, so I'm being as cautious as possible, but I'm concerned that she was flaunting the A and OM to incite me to react in some way.
Yes, this is HIGHLY likely. Please don't fall into that trap!!
