Which direction do I go?

[smith18]

Hi Ping -

You and I have some similarities. I seperated from my W back in Nov 2007 and fought (sometimes stupidly) like crazy to save the marriage. I filed for the D and there was a period where it seemed we might reconcile. After we tried mediation and the D was going to be dismissed, she told me to proceed with negotiations with L's and then I decided to move on and accept that I was going to be really divorce. Just like you, I met someone before the divorce was final - she however had been divorced for several years. My W had some sort of awakening and asked if she could have a second chance about a week or two before the divorce was final. I said no for various reasons.

You are faced with a difficult decision in the coming weeks/months. I understand how hard it can be to give up hopes of reliving some of the past.

I just want to point out a red flag...

About two weeks ago she called me crying on the phone for she was having trouble with the bank and refinancing the house.

She proceeded to say that in the past 2 months that her life has been living he!! and by this time she thought things would be easier but in fact they were getting harder.

As Frank says, you need to be very cautious about saving her once the hardships of life hit her. She needs to convince you that she wants back not out of convenience, but because of love.

Some of her revelations sound great and are a good sign that she has come out of the fog. Also her acknowleging her role in the breakdown in the marriage.

Another thing of concern is that you and your girlfriend both met while coming off each of your broken marriages. Maybe one or both of you are not truely healed and ready for a new long term relationship. I know that Ian just broke his off and I have been having some doubts about mine that I am giving time to figure out.

As others have questioned "What do you want?". I think the only way you are going to answer that with certainty is with some more time to consider all the possibilities.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Ping,

First, know that most LBSers would give an arm to be in this position. Despite this, I don't envy you really. I mean, yes it's great to have some choice in the matter and to have two good women caring for you...but no it sucks to know someone will be hurt in the end....and, you take my point...
But know that each woman poses risks to your heart. No R or M is risk free. You have not known this new woman for long. How long did you know your first w before you M?

I want to take a few different approaches to this. Lots to consider.

First, please Forgive my "intuitive guessing" here, but for some reason, I would like for a moment, to pretend you are a woman in your sitch, instead of a man. I don't know why but I think we'd be pretty united in advising you to try hard to reconcile. We'd say, "There are children, (!)" (remember when that was the most important thing??) and there were no OP's involved and no substance abuse or violence.... For many many LBSers, that's way more than enough to try again, right there. .

I think we'd say "try and make the family work and say 'bye bye' to the new 'man"'... I honestly have not seen a woman on this site advised to say "no" to a reconciliation with the father of her children, regardless of what her exh did, (except violence or heavy drinking). But I see a lot of men in the same sitch staying on the fence for too long and it confuses me. Thought it might clarify things for you to take the other gender's point of view though. Don't know what the hell that means, but it's a tangent so if it didn't strike you just let it go...now back to your sitch now.

I am struck by the fact that you now live an hour away from your kids cuz I don't get it. Thought I'd say it outright so you know. I don't want to judge you b/c you were the LBSer and you sound like a really great guy. I get that. I have 2 divorced brothers who act very different with their kids. One brother is a pilot & attorney and has turned down a good 5 great jobs out of state, jobs with better pay and long term promise, and he turned down numerous prestigious jobs at local firms b/c of the long hours or the travel away from his girls. And he has moved 3 times locally to "match" his ex W's moves, so he could live in the same school district and the girls could then stay at his home during the week.....

and my other brother (another lawyer) got a D, and moved 500 miles away to D.C. for a job. That job ended, and he accepted a decent paying but "exciting sounding" JOB overseas in IRAQ, has been there 9 months of each of the past 4 years and is now going to Afghanistan..never re-applied for jobs in his hometown and really made his money in real estate which he could have done anywhere...

and his only child (d18) graduates this year from high school....he is like a fun 'uncle' to my wonderful niece. Thank God my ex sil remarried a good man who acts as niece's "real" father, not my brother. What a difference. I love both my brothers but... Which type of father do you want to be?

And here's another thought...

Let's say you pass up this chance to reconcile with your w and instead choose to pursue R with new woman. You have no idea where the new R will go. Will it end after it runs its' course? Okay. Yikes, what a mistake to have given up on the M's chance for a re-do....What if the new R ends up in a M? If so, will THAT M last? Why so? Why not?...and what happens to your kids if you are in a new R/M? Will you have even less time with them, as you make room for your "new family"?

I fear it will haunt you for a life time if you don't try again, and God only knows what your kids will think of you, or love, or commitment or most important, what they will learn about forgiveness. It could very well appear to your kids that you are not forgiving her, and that is why you won't reconcile. And since you live away from the kids, how would that choice further effect them?

Here's what we "know". You have a w who came out of her fog and is making a move towards reconciliation of some sort, and it seems safe to say she has done some soul searching. You say she cannot tell you what you want to hear, so that means two things to me: 1) you want to trust her, you want her to say something about COMMITMENT to the M, which means deep down you want that too, if you can feel safe with her, which is understandable but actually revealing....and, 2) your expectation of clarity from your wife under these circumstances is not realistic and probably would not sound healthy to us in the sense that you two could be totally apart from each other with little to no contact, and then xw could spontaneously slap her head and say "Let's reunite! NOW!" We'd all say whoa, slow down Ping.

But what is really confusing you? ...Is it really just the OW that gives you pause? You need to check your heart/ego/soul on that question, b/c it's really easy for our egos and our need to be "right, " to stop us from forgiving and our hearts are afraid of being hurt again, and that stops us from moving on back to our spouses....when OP exists we cling to the idea that happiness lies with them and they help us prove how wrong the ex'es were...

Your W has had a significant "experience" of some sort; Ping. She seems to have had an epiphany or awakening, or miracle, or whatever you want to call it; it's what LBSers here pray feverishly for over years and years...can you be grateful for this gift, no matter what?

At some level deep within, make sure you search your soul for anything that remotely suggests "teaching her a lesson" or of her "getting what she deserves" or "made her bed so...blah blah blah" it is ALL punitive and NOT coming from a place of love. Love? Yes the love you once had for her and probably still do, love For your original M, your children and no matter what else is said, we do have to try and come from a place of love. Not doormat, but love. The line between setting healthy boundaries versus enabling crappy behavior is a blurry damn line. And a shifting one too!

I think most of us struggle with finding our way thru this maze so that on one hand, we don't lose our self respect but OTOH, we can't hang onto false pride. The line between enforcing a new boundary that's healthy, versus giving them a taste of what we went thru, all in the name of "teaching them a lesson"...oh it's a tiny little waving line and you need to be really honest.

While your w cannot say "I get it now!" and be totally trusted as to her certainty, (and she's not saying that anyhow...) But she can say, she was wrong and she'll own up to her issues...and that she is praying and listening to God. Query: Is this new behavior? Once upon a time, was she at least somewhat religious? Or is this the very first time those words have come out of her mouth? Obviously that's relevant.

Last but not least, what if you do reconcile with your wife and it does work? What would that mean to you, and to your children? To your children, it could mean leaving a "legacy" to them. Seeing their parents deeply wound each other, and divorce. But then seeing them find/choose to find their love within and letting it flourish without fear...and FORGIVING each other in its' holiest meaning, accepting each other warts and all, seeing each other through God's eyes, and re-connecting and recommitting...the value of that legacy is priceless...What a gift you could give them...

Just be honest with both these women. They deserve that. But one of them is also the mother of your children and once upon a time you made vows to her.

Even if you recon and things don't work out, so what? You get hurt again....that can happen no matter who you are with and you'd still know you tried to forgive and move on. And the new woman? Somehow I think she'll understand.

I vote for the kids. Pursue or explore whatever this is with your w. See how long this epiphany lasts but be there for your w regardless. She is trying to sort through some painful realizations and it benefits both of you to have a better R and it sure is good for the kids to see you interacting more positively.

Don't over analyze what she was thinking and how she could go dark on you and what that meant...it was a colossal waste of my time wondering wth h was doing/thinking/feeling. My h left to live 3000 miles away to pursue a pretty crazy fantasy but the thing is, mere hours after he took the big credential test up there, literally, he called me as if to say, "where is everyone?" As if he suddenly realized that we were here and he was there and that....it was all due to his choices.
Kept asking me/us to join him and saying "When will you?" and honestly it was kind of far out there. He seems more normal now, but these partners of ours can go off and act sooo wacky and nasty for a time. You never thought your xw could do that but you know, you also don't think your present gf could either. No guarantees either way...

FWIW, I have two family members (aunt/uncle and a cousin) who divorced and remarried their ex's years later. They had kids that kept them in some sort of contact and eventually my uncle asked my aunt if she was happier and she said not really, and they started to date....and 7 years ago he died of cancer with his wife and children at his bedside. My cousin and his w divorced and remarried 8 years later. They've been together now for 14 years. Both relatives say the 2nd time around was better, btw.

Do you think if your w followed some course of action that you could open your heart to her again? If so, I sure think that's the thing to at least try so you'll know for sure. Otherwise you'll always wonder, and the kids will too.
From my point of view, thus far, I'm glad I stuck it out. Hey, I could still be wrong, but for now I'm just glad to be here and we are a work in progress.

Good luck,
( j )

[ernest88]

Ping..lots of really good advice for you. I knew they would come. I've notified more.

So you want your M back?? You really want to reconcile??

Lots of hard work ahead...and you must have more patience than ever....this time...you can't quit. It will be frustrating as hell for sure and the road will be rough. This time you must be in 100%...no matter what XW does or says...

Her words are cheap..her actions will move mountains and bring down walls..

at this point there is nothing at all wrong with being her(xw) good friend...listening, validating, empathizing...even if you don't reconcile it will lead to a good co-parenting relationship.

I'll support you 100% either way you choose..

FWIW..I've missed you and I'm glad your back..not for the reasons your back but because I consider you a "friend" I've never met..

I have not forgot about the golf either someday..someway..

[gucci loafer]

Do nothing. It is your wife's move. You said she didn't know what she wanted. You said that you tried and tried before but it didn't work.

You said that you let go and have left her alone and are in another relationship... THAT IS WORKING...

Keep doing what works. Leave her alone and let her come to you.
Pursuing didn't work before. Accept that fact. This has to be her idea and her decision without pressure from you.

Just stay where your are. Don't put the cart before the horse.
I wouldn't give up the woman you are seeing. Not a good idea.

We just had a thread last week called "the jealousy button"..
It talked about how often the WS suddenly wakes up after the BS is seeing someone else. Looks like we have another example of it working here. She will never admit it, but I would venture to say that your dating and moving on was the catalyst that turned this around..

Do what works.

[ping1]

Thanks for the replys thus far, I will respond to above questions when I return from a meeting this afternoon.

Couple of short responses:

W and I were together 22 years, we were high school sweethearts, we started dating when I was 15 and she was 13.

W and I both have always been believers but never attended church but sometimes while we were kids, never consistently.

I moved an hour away because W refused to give anymore custody time than the standard eow and I was not going to stay 3 minutes from her and rot away as I was doing, it was time for me to move on.

My true love is and always will be W, she was my first love and my only love, I am 38 now, I spent more than half my life with her.

These are short responses but I have to leave, will check back later.

[AmyC]

Ping, you have actually answered the biggest question of all:

There is nothing more in life that I would want more than to save my family

there is nothing more I want in life than to have my family back.

If the above words are true, then you owe it to your family to clear the path.

Your wife is not going to be able to give you a positive indication right now of what she wants because she's being consumed by the reality of the situation, the chances she feels she missed to turn it around before it got to this point and the weight of the regret that comes with all of that. Trust me, it is enormous.

What Mike said is true:

Her words are cheap..her actions will move mountains and bring down walls..

With one exception:

It won't be your wife's actions that are going to bring down the walls or move mountains. The only thing needed for that is a willing spirit, on both your parts, to trust and let God's will be done.

If I were you, I would be still.
And I would be working on forgiveness.
Because that is the biggest thing that is going to required of both you and your wife. You need to forgive her, truly. And she is going to have to forgive herself. That road is the hardest one ahead of you both and it has to be traveled whether a reconciliation takes place or not.

[25yearsmlc]

Ping,

yes to what AmyC said. I thought I had forgiven h, but in reality I had conceived it, and worked on it, but not quite "delivered it" or given birth to it, or whatever metaphor works for you. It took longer than I thought and some days I thought I was done with it like I was fine, but old stuff would pop up and I'd have to re-do the work. Marianne Williamson is an author (too new agey for some people, but I say whatever works) and she has some exercises in her books about anger and forgiveness that I found helpful. Maybe you'd like them?

IMHO, I don't agree about keeping ow on for now, as it's unfair to her, and will be an obstacle for you and your w to focus on your m, as you'll look over your shoulder every time there's a hurdle to overcome as there are in any Ms. Plus, so far, no OPs have been in this sitch, and I don't know what having OW will do to the sitch but I cannot think it'll increase your chance of a recon. I think it'll sabatage it.

As far as jealousy, does your w even really know about her anyhow? I mean, I DO think you should not be jumping back into anything too fast. But your w isn't demanding anything of you right now. And don't underestimate the ow being able to understand you trying once more with your m, but when we say trying, we mean really trying, and how on earth does OP fit into that definition? If I were OW, frankly, I would want to see a real effort for you to reconcile and see that fail on its' own, without me being a factor, before I'd want to continue on. Maybe that's just me. But it'd make me feel zero guilt and a lot more secure going forward in a R with you. Make sense?

Also, you agreed earlier in your post that you owned some of the m's problems and that fault is shared....so forgiveness will go both ways and both of you will need to look within and forgive yourselves, and the other. As an LBSer, I had to remind myself that even though what h did to me was unfair and wrong, I had to suck it up to some extent. Meaning, I've had enough counselling to know that he "wronged me" (for lack of a better phrase) but in a way, so what? Since I'm not divorcing him for that past stuff what's the point in going over my 'grievance list' even if it's real? , I have to be in and stay in the "now".

Even if I am "right" to be angry or still hurt, it doesn't make me "happy" to be that way. So I have to ask myself a lot, "do I want to be 'right' or happy?"

Also I wonder how much value assigning blame has. I don't think it has any value, except as it relates to learning from our mistakes. Obviously if there had been an OP or some obvious clear transgression (drinking, etc) then the obstacle would need removal and both parties would more or less have to "get that'. In your case, figuring out the issues is important, but b/c DB is solution based and not "my childhood sucked and therefore "x' happened and then my mother died and...."
it's more about what you both now want going forward in life. Now, and from now on...

It is also a lot about forgiveness and re-building trust. That means I can't keep making my h jump thru hoops the rest of his life to "prove" to me his love or to keep "making amends" nor can I hold the sword of Damacles over his head saying "I'll bolt if you make one more mistake..." nor do I have the right to have my way on other issues the rest of our M b/c he screwed up badly and hurt me/the kids.... I really have to remind myself of this often lately! I know that down deep, a part of me feels "owed" so much, that I can get into that frame of mind too easily. I say to myself "hey, if I already "forgave" him for that, what am I doing still expecting to get my way on present day things b/c he has sooo much to make up for....?" That attitude will doom a reconciliation but also reflects the reality that "piecing" is a great opportunity, and I"m truly grateful for it, but it is not a "piece of cake" (pun sort of intended).

But the answers to your questions really are contained in your own words... it's just tough to let go of a new dream, tough to open our hearts again, to trust and forgive, and no one wants to hurt anyone, let alone a good decent human being.

We all wish you happiness and peace in your choices. And I understand why you moved away from the kids. Just didn't have enough history on your sitch. What do you think is best for your kids?
You have lots to think about and got lots of feedback.

Peace-

(( j ))

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Chad,
I have been where you are, more or less, not divorced but certainly done.
I see no need to ask questions.
And I really do not want to do this here, so check your FB site.
No questions because you already know what you are going to do.
A part of you is hoping someone is going to tell you, that you’re an idiot for even entertaining the idea of attempting to reach out to your wife, that someone is going to scream stop. No one should.
Here is what is going to happen, you are going to hurt a lady that doesn’t deserve to be hurt. And that is your fault; it is all your fault, no matter what you talked about or told her, how honest you were you are going to hurt her, simple. And you are going to feel terrible and you are not going to want to do it, but you will.
Your wife, who from a logical point of view deserves to suffer, you are going to start talking to.

FB, accept the request.

[Rob1231]

Hi ping, Mike asked me to drop in.

You've already gotten a lot of good advice - here's my two cents.

There are no guarantees. All of us here have had to work on ourselves and our marriages, in spite of the odds being against us, and in spite of a WAS who wasn't offering any hope for the future. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not, and the ultimate resolution is ours to influence but not to control.

So, you have two relationships with women in your life now. Each R offers different rewards, and each offers different risks. Weigh the pros and cons. Neither choice is right or wrong, but I think you do need to choose and commit to pursuing one or the other.

Good luck!

[sofaraway]

Ping, thanks for answering the question. Those basic questions open up a lot of opportunity for feedback.

I will say this as bluntly as I can for you. Unless you are prepared to be completely honest with your girlfriend about how things progress with your wife right now then you need to back off of the new relationship.

If you can be honest with her and up front and she still wants to see what happens, that is her choice. If you do not provide her with all the information then she cannot make a choice that she feels is in her best interest.

While I agree with the do nothing, be still advice on here. I also feel that being still includes not being in another relationship at this point in time. If you want to see what your xw is going to do and have hopes that maybe y'all can work things out then you need to be free and available to commit for yourself that you are giving your all to it.

There is no parachute Ping, you cannot have both, it won't work....

You have pointed out some things that I like. You are getting a foundation in your religion, good. You are Open to putting your family back together and taking coresponsibilty to the deterioration of your marriage, good. In my opinion, and for what its worth, coming here and looking for support and answers says it all. You know what you want here my friend, you are IMO here to gain validation for what you feel inside.


I hope you have gotten some of that here.



Ian