"As such, men tend to be visually (physically) oriented and stimulated when looking for a potential mate or when maintaining the pair-bond with our chosen mate. While a woman's mental attributes (personality, intelligence, etc.) are certainly important, it is her physical attributes which take center stage when it comes to sexual attractiveness and arousal in a man. Because of this, men tend to be a bit 'boiler-plate' in what they find sexy and attractive, although tastes do vary somewhat from culture to culture and man to man."
I don't really agree with this. While the physical attributes may initially attract us IMO it is of much lessor importance when chosing a mate. Not to break the man code here but.... just about all guys joke about hot chicks with no brains and how their only really good for one thing. They are strictly for scoring with. When it comes to falling in love and making a decision about a long term mate the mental aspects play a much higher role/importance. The true intamacy that is discussed and wanted here by just about everyone here can't IMO occur without the emotional/mental/personality/etc... factors.
Sure -- we all want to score with the hot chick - but few of us want a long term intimate relationship with one we don't admire and respect. In my opinion a *truly* hot chick is one that has the other things - and the physical traits are secondary.
But Baggy...did you or did you not send her a sexy text today?????
Gracious girl, you're insistant....yes, I did.
An update on the sitch:
Yesterday morning, after I had gone off to work in a brooding mood (yep, deep in the 'man-cave'), my wife contacted our MC's office, who then later called me at work, trying to determine the situation and do some phone 'first-aid.' We had a decent discussion, he showed a great deal of empathy for how I was feeling (and my wife also), and essentially asked me to go into a holding pattern until our appointment with him next week (he'll also be calling me again tomorrow). Between my conversation with him and all of your support here, I was feeling better when I stepped through the door at home, yesterday.
I actually had the family's dinner waiting for my wife when she stepped through the door herself (nothing fancy, just a speghetti and meat sauce), but we've mentioned my taking on more of the cooking since I often beat her home, so I followed through on it. She was very obviously trying to be affectionate and make ammends, and I responded positively, culminating in a nice reconnecting evening together. She stepped up, and I couldn't help but return the effort in kind.
We aren't fully out of the ditch yet, but I feel better, and some friends threw us a rope --> thanks guys.
I hate that it sometimes takes a crisis to get us moving down the road again, although this crisis was decidedly different in flavor. In this instance, there was NO yelling or arguing, no overblown criticisms or stomping about. We disagreed surely, and got upset at the disagreement and it's implications for us. At one point I specifically stated that "I'm not angry with you or criticizing you -- in fact, I applaud and appreciate all the hard work you have done....". I think the fact that I hadn't been angry and storming about, but had instead shared my (admittedly despondent) feelings openly, and then -listened- to her responses, drove home how I was really feeling (I wasn't just spouting off in an angry huff), and also gave her the room she needed to 'bring me back' into the game with her.
One day at at time,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I don't really agree with this. While the physical attributes may initially attract us IMO it is of much lessor importance when chosing a mate....Sure -- we all want to score with the hot chick - but few of us want a long term intimate relationship with one we don't admire and respect. In my opinion a *truly* hot chick is one that has the other things - and the physical traits are secondary.
Point taken. I was being a rather generic and certainly over-simplifying things to make a point about a basic difference between the sexes. As a man, even with the woman that you love, admire, and respect, it is her physical characteristics, especially if she'll flaunt them at you (combined with a wink and a smile), that will quicken your pulse and get you started in the chase to 'conquer' her, time and again.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
"I think the fact that I hadn't been angry and storming about, but had instead shared my (admittedly despondent) feelings openly, and then -listened- to her responses, drove home how I was really feeling (I wasn't just spouting off in an angry huff), and also gave her the room she needed to 'bring me back' into the game with her."
Yep - authenticity. Huffing and puffing and anger are not actually authentic feelings. They are emotional displays designed to manipulate the other person. But true authenticity generally brings an authentic response...and then real change can grow from there.
GOOD JOB, Baggy....and Mrs. Baggy!
And thank you (from all of us) for sending her the sexy text. I was on pins and needles waiting to hear if you had sent one or not!
After reconnecting (better) with each other -- physically and emotionally -- since my last post here, our session with the therapist last week went VERY well, indeed.
(1) The wife agreed, and without a lot of resistance, to allow the therapist to delve into her past (abuses and otherwise); show her how it is affecting her, her sexuality, and her relationship with me today; and then begin work to make changes. I can still detect some remaining challenge in her voice, in that she feels like she's already been to counseling and addressed those issues (for several months when the flashbacks occurred in 1987), and that it's over and done with and -not- affecting her now (from her perspective). However, she's on board with revisiting those areas again and following the therapist's suggestions.
(2) We also talked about how while the plateau that we enjoyed in Jan-Feb of this year was wonderful (and necessary, from my wife's perspective, in order to give her the motivation to keep on slogging), it was unsustainable, particularly from my perspecitve --> in that 90% of the work regarding physical intimacy and our sexual relationship was still being done by me. In order for that aspect of our relationship to be sustainable, she needs to be less passive (both in and out of the bedroom), and more active / assertive.
(3) Finally, we discussed how I need her to begin moving towards what I desire sexually, in the same manner that I have been working to move myself towards what she desires sexually. In other words, the more she takes on the characteristics of -my- sexual archetype (what really turns me on and lights my fire) the more enabled I will be to take on the characteristics of -her- sexual archetype (and vice versa).
So the woman I love comes through once again, in showing her love for me and willingness to work at making this a successful, happy, and (for a change) healthy relationship. I hate that it often has to come to a crisis state or a cusp for her to finally say "Fine, I'll move already!", BUT when she does decide to move, she generally follows through on it and doesn't look back.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Oh Baggy, hurrah! I'm so happy for you both. I am hopeful that Mrs. Baggy will become the vixen you so hope for he to be, and you the pirate she has been wanting.
Then the sexy vixen and ruthless pirate can have wild abandoned sex for all time.
I'm so sorry that Mrs. Baggy experienced abuse. It absolutely SUCKS that so many people are violated, suffering mental anguish for years to come. It is an outrage. When I hear more and more about abuse victims, I am disheartened to think about the reality of the general status of mental health in our world. Real, raw tragedy.
That said, I am so impressed with Mrs. Baggy's ability and willingness to move forward. She knows that she has a special man at her side, and she's fighting to keep you there.
You are forcing light to be shed on a very dark part of her psyche. That light is a huge gift to her, aside from what it does for your M. This is an opportunity for her to heal further and to become a happier, healthier woman and wife. Your love for her is beautiful.
Our therapist really has had his hands full: my wife and I are BOTH the childhood victims of some form of abuse -- her sexual, and myself emotional/physical. On a subconscious level, one of the reasons that we are together as a couple is -because- of our abused backgrounds. To explain:
I am very certain (although it's never been verified) that my mother was sexaully abused as a young girl. As a result, my mother has an extreme fear of intimacy, was very hands-off and critical as a mother, and yes, my mother and father were in a very frustrating, sex-starved marriage for 19 years until they divorced when I was 18. Ironically, I had always vowed to never have the kind of marriage that my parents had....And yet in a VERY subconscious way, I somehow sought out and married a woman with the same tragic background and life-long consequences as my mother. My therapist says that it was (and is) my sub-conscious yearning to finally prove myself and achieve the loving, intimate relationship that I never had with my mother, using my wife as her proxy. Not exactly what I had in mind on my wedding day....
I have read in several books/articles on the topic of childhood sexual abuse, which state that through a variety of unfortunate circumstances, childhood sexual abuse is often inadvertantly "passed on" from generation to generation, as with my wife and her mother (but NOT my daughter, thankfully). Well, I'm proof that the men who love the victims of childhood sexual abuse also tend to run in generations -- I'm following in my father's footsteps there.
My hope is that my wife and I are in a sense, uniquely suited to help heal -each other-. That is, when one of takes a step forward, it carries the other along too, altough the flipside, unfortunately, also works --> when one of us stubbles, we both do. For the first year of seeing our therapist, we have focused on -my- past and -my- issues. It is now time, however, for my wife to step up to the plate sometimes too.
And she has, most thankfully.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Quote from Baggy: "My therapist says that it was (and is) my sub-conscious yearning to finally prove myself and achieve the loving, intimate relationship that I never had with my mother, using my wife as her proxy."
Is it wrong? I mean, is it wrong to seek resolution to childhood trauma in adult R's? My hunch is that it is OK to do that, as long as it is not imposing dysfunction or done solely out of gratifying one's self. Just curious about your thoughts on this.
Sometimes, I sense extreme disapproval when someone is being called out as a Nice Guy or when someone is being scolded for seeking validation or approval. I think there is a place for striving to be nice and kind toward fellow humankind, for looking for validation when you are unsure of your footing, for seeking approval from those who you look up to, for communicating with emotion. Sometimes, in my opinion, those things are perfectly OK. It's when it gets twisted in manipulative behavior that is not so nice, but even then it is rarely deserving of some of the harsh treatment that I have seen amongst Nice Guys at times.
So, now I am wondering. Is "making it right", whether consciously or subconsciously, in your adult life OK on some level? Or, is it a part of you that you have to "let go" of and strive to not let it make a bit of difference as a grown up (sort of like having the part of your brain that houses the experience and associated trauma removed)?
