Hello, all you fellow people who would rather not have to be here!
After about 7 months of lurking, I am finally biting the bullet and posting. I started writing up my situation, but got a little carried away--it was 6 pages in Word and I wasn't done yet! So I was trying to keep things short and sweet this time...and it became 10 pages! I am giving up and posting what I have before it gets any longer! Apparently my writing style is less "Reader's Digest" and more "Anna Karenina." So sorry--I know it's hard to read these long posts--feel free to skim if you like!
H and I were college sweethearts, got married after almost 7 years of dating (did not live together first), have been married 16 years, together 22, and are now in our early 40s. Childless by choice (mostly my choice, but he always indicated he was fine with it).
Although we both had our issues, I believed H was basically wonderful until about 7 years ago, when I found out he was having an EA with a 22-year-old college student (H was 37; he always insisted it never got to the point of being a complete PA). This was shortly after my diagnosis with major suicidal depression, which I have been fighting since I was 13 but had never been diagnosed or treated for before (I got by because I was always a functional depressive, and so I still managed to finish college, get a job, and so on).
I was a total wreck from the time I found out about the EA until my antidepressants kicked in a week or so later, then I was doing somewhat better. H ended the EA (although he refused to remove himself from contact with OW, who was then and still is on his regular bowling team, although she is now married to a guy the same age as my H). We each went to IC and together to MC, all for 2-3 years, and things were better, although I wouldn't say they were great. I ended up going off the antidepressants after about 3 years, with my doctor's okay, although he said it was likely I would need them for the rest of my life (after having had untreated depression for over 20 years). Gradually things started deteriorating again. H was complaining a lot about things I was doing, and I was either not clear on what he wanted, or finding change extremely difficult because these were all long-standing issues for me. My depression started going downhill again. H became more and more touchy with me, getting defensive anytime I asked a question, even when I had no ulterior motives, to the point that I just stopped asking him questions at all because he would invariably get irritated. Do you have any idea how hard it is to live with a person you love and refrain from asking them any questions?? Oh, wait, probably some of you do...!
So for about three years, I watched things deteriorate, both in our relationship and for each of us individually, and I wanted to stop the slide but I couldn't seem to do anything that made a difference. My depression made everything more difficult.
In the middle of this time, three years ago, his mother died of Alzheimer's, about six years after being diagnosed, gradually fading away to being much like an infant physically and mentally. I was never close to her (she never really approved of me for various reasons, but especially because I wasn't of the "right" faith, although there was a lot of that prejudiced sort of thing going around, including from my family directed to H), but even I was affected by her death, and the nearer family members, including H, even more so, even though we had known for years that it was coming. H's dad, who was kind of your typical 50s-era "providing for the family is my job, running the household and looking after the kids is hers" man, was *amazing* during her illness--as she lost the ability to do things around the house and eventually to care for herself, he just picked up the slack as needed, and never complained. He just did what had to be done, and didn't make a fuss about it or expect praise. By the time H's mother died, they were only a few months short of their 50th wedding anniversary. H was among the many of us who were incredibly impressed with the way his dad stepped up to the plate when the chips were down (sorry for the mixed metaphors). H said several times that he wasn't sure he could do what his dad did. That worried me a little, but I had confidence that he would do the right thing when necessary.
Finally, last fall, I started getting suspicious that H was having an EA with a girl he met online through Second Life (online game where you interact with other players but there is no specific goal, just exploring the world and "meeting" people). In mid-September I found some things that *really* scared me that he was getting involved with this girl, and I was seriously upset; I basically quit eating for six weeks, and my mild case of bulimia suddenly became full-force (throwing up every other day--not that there was ever really much in my stomach in those days in the first place). I lost over 20 pounds in seven weeks, and I wasn't very big to begin with--I went from a size 8 to barely a size 2. But I was also so highly motivated by my discoveries that I began making changes that he had begged me for years to make, but I could never seem to do consistently. I did not say anything to him about what I had found or about my suspicions--I'm not naturally the confrontational type--rather, I made it a point to be exceptionally nice to him and as considerate as I could find ways to be.
The girl I suspected he was having an EA with was--get this--another 22-year-old college student, but attending college 5 hours away, so they had never met in person. Then in mid-October he was gone for four days to attend a concert in this girl's home state (near where she goes to college), supposedly with a group of Second Life players...including her. (This was planned back in August, a month or so after he first got on Second Life and met her). I was very disturbed by this plan, especially when I offered to accompany him on the trip and he told me point-blank, "I don't want you to go. I'm going because I want to get away from everything that's going badly here, and you're part of that."
While he was gone, I actually didn't cry for three days straight, which was the first time I'd gone a day without tears since I found the stuff that really scared me a month earlier. However, when he got home, it was crystal-clear to me that something was seriously wrong, and I couldn't stand the uncertainty any longer, so that night I gathered up my courage and confronted him about what was going on. He eventually admitted that he had spent those four days with her...day AND night. (Well, it was hard for him to otherwise explain the hotel reservations sheet I found that indicated there were 2 people in the room, when he had claimed beforehand that he was staying alone!) I was almost as angry about the lies as I was about the cheating--I had told him from early in our relationship that lying and cheating were both deal-breakers with me. We both lost our tempers that night, which almost never happens; I actually used some words you can't say in polite company (well, NOW you can get away with it, because polite company isn't so polite), which haven't come out of my mouth in over ten years, and for the first time ever in our 22-year relationship, things were thrown, and we ended up with no functional lights in our bedroom.
After that, I became outwardly calm, but like ice inside, while he talked for hours, and told me that the two of them had developed a romantic relationship on Second Life and it turned out that it carried over when they met each other in person, and they "really liked each other." (gag!) I asked him about the physical aspect of it, and he said, in this really insulted tone, "She's a virgin! She's always been up-front about the fact that she was waiting!" (I didn't respond outwardly to that, but I was thinking, "What, she was waiting for a married guy twice her age??!") He also said that he didn't know this until he actually saw her, but she is actually quite heavy (sort of adding insult to injury for me...I may not have a cover-model face, but I'm the most physically fit person I know [except for my brother], and she probably weighs two or maybe even *three* times as much as I do!!). He talked about how hard it had been for her to find men who would look past her weight and love her for what's inside, blah, blah, blah. I hope I won't be accused of being judgmental about weight, and I hope friends who are overweight will find me to be sympathetic, but I really didn't want to hear it in this case, because all I heard was a sob story about how hard her life has been because of her weight, and how hard this situation with the two of them is for her, and for him, and how miserable he's been with me, and how much better he feels with her, with the implication of how inconvenient it is that he was already married to me when he met her...you know the drill.
I didn't get ILYBINILWY--in fact, he said at one point, "I still love you," to which my response was, "Apparently we have a very different idea of what love is." However, I got just about everything else from the "secret" MLC manual: "I haven't been happy in our marriage since almost the beginning;" "I think we'd be happier apart;" (in other words, "*I* would be happier without you") "I see that you've been making changes, but I just don't know if I have the energy to try to work things out with you any more;" "I don't think we're right for each other;" MAJOR revision of relationship history, and so forth and so on. Not a single word of concern for me or my feelings, nor any remorse for what he has done. In fact, he did the "attack before you're attacked" thing and gave me grief by saying, "You're undoubtedly feeling superior because you haven't 'cheated' and I have!"--very much as though I were the one at fault! And on and on and on...I remember listening to him and thinking that I didn't even know this person, and he *looked* like the person I fell in love with and married, but from the way he was talking and acting, he had turned into someone I didn't even recognize, much less like, because the person I married would NEVER do or say things like this. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.
It was horrible beyond all belief, but even though I didn't know about DBing per se yet, I didn't cry or yell or even accuse, once my initial outburst was over. I just stayed glacially calm and said very little for four hours, while he talked about what they had done together, and what they had said, and did the whole "poor me" and "poor her" speeches, and told me about all my faults, both real and imagined, and talked about how he had noticed how much I had changed recently, but that, essentially, it was too little too late (sound familiar?). He summed up by telling me that he had come to the conclusion that he couldn't live like this any more, and he had decided on his drive home from the trip that he would take a couple of days to think about all of this and decide whether to try to work things out with me (and I guess give her up), or to move out. I volunteered to him that if he would be willing to take the first option and commit to working things out with me, I would...(insert long list of things, most of which he had been wanting me to do for quite some time, such as going back into treatment for depression, and no longer, in his words, "trying to control him by threatening suicide"). (I later realized that probably I said those things because I was in the "bargaining" phase of grief.) He was basically unmoved by anything I said, and just said he needed to think about things.
When he finally wound down, about 3 a.m., he went to the basement to sleep on the futon instead of in our bedroom, for the first time in all of our years together, even though I told him I wouldn't be going to bed (up until that night, he had always firmly maintained that if you're married and in the same building, you sleep in the same bed, even if you're sick or mad at each other--and I had never had any objection to that policy). After he went downstairs, I went into a room at the far end of the house and spent an hour sobbing hysterically. Then, because I felt as though I was going to explode if I didn't talk to someone, but it was 4 a.m. and I didn't want to wake up any friends or relatives, I called a 24-hour suicide hotline and...I kid you not, I got shunted straight to voice mail. Twice. I remember thinking, "Someday I'll think this is funny..." I wasn't completely suicidal, so I found another 24-hour hotline and called it, and talked to the person on the other end for about an hour...until he put me on hold and then came back and said, "I really need to take this call, so I'm going to let you go...." Um, sure, no problem, I'll just take my crisis and slink away...
To try to summarize a bit: In addition to the not-eating, I also started not-sleeping, which lasted for two weeks in full-fledged form, and I still have more trouble with it than I ever had on a regular basis before this whole thing started. I called my psychiatrist the next day after the argument, got an emergency appointment for the following day, and went in and told him the story; he advised that I was probably going to end up having to force the issue one way or another because H had no incentive to make a change, and he started me back on antidepressants. This was my sixth antidepressant, and the first one that didn't actually do a thing for me, so it was another medication switch and a full *ten weeks* before I actually got any relief from the crushing grief and hopelessness, suicidal/violent impulses, daily (or twice-daily) two-hour crying jags, and complete inability to concentrate or get anything done. This is not a recipe for success when you own your own business and are the only person involved in it, so nobody can pick up the slack for you...especially when you have good reason to believe that you may be about to need to earn a lot more money, and have been trying to build up your business because H has been complaining about that anyway.
During the months following our huge blow-up in October, all of the little affectionate things disappeared from our relationship, one by one. Sex and nudity stopped instantly. After that, the next thing to go was "I love you," which until that point was a daily exchange. No more hugs, hand-holding, or snuggling, in bed or out of it. We still live in the same house and even sleep in the same bed (which is seriously strange, all things considered), but whereas until that day in October we used to always sleep nude and curled around each other, we are now "decently" clothed and never touch except by accident. The sum total of our physical interaction for the last six months or so has been the passionless peck on the mouth that he usually gives me before he leaves for work. The last time we ate out, or went anywhere at all, just the two of us, was in November. We haven't talked on the phone in almost six months.
Here's my favorite irony <ugh!> about the entire situation: I went off of the antidepressants the first time because we couldn't seem to find a combination that would allow me to *fully* enjoy ML--they all had that side effect on me. I got pretty frustrated after three years of ML without that...um, "special moment," and H wasn't happy about it either, although he still got what he wanted for himself, but he also wanted me to enjoy it. However, the medication I'm on now doesn't seem to have that side effect...but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good in the current situation. So I went off the antidepressants because they were having a negative effect on my sex life...but now that I am on an antidepressant that doesn't seem to have that effect on me...I no longer have a sex life to speak of...partially because I went off antidepressants in the first place. Yep, you gotta just love watching the way life slaps you into a situation that would be funny if it were happening to someone else....
In the meantime, H's relationship with OW seems to have gotten more and more involved, even though he still nominally lives with me. They are totally addicted to each other (they even recognize this) and tell each other "I love you" constantly. They're really kinda like teenagers who have just fallen in love, in fact--liable to make anyone a little sick, but especially someone whose marriage is being spectacularly destroyed in the process. They see each other about twice a month, for as long a weekend as they can manage. Sometimes they even stay in a hotel right here in town. (A side effect of this is that I now feel sick to my stomach anytime I see a hotel, or even an ad for one. Do you know how many hotels there are everywhere??!) This whole year, I'm in an important class for my business that involves traveling out of town for one weekend every two months, and during the very first one (in February), OW came and spent the weekend with H here, at our house!! That weekend, I got home at 6 a.m. Monday morning after driving all night through snow and fog, and when I saw the evidence that she had been there, and he then admitted it without me even having to grill him (which I normally don't anyway), I wasn't surprised, but I was livid, although I managed to keep a lid on it until he left for work. I still can hardly believe he did such an atrocious thing! And then after he told me she had been there, he had the gall to ask if I was going to kill myself because of it! (I didn't say it then, but really, why do something like that if you're really worried that it might send me over the edge, and if you aren't actually worried about it, why ask?)
In between visits, they talk on the phone for a minimum of probably two hours a day. Every day he calls her on his way to work, and on his way home, and if he's driving anywhere else. When he's not out with anyone else in person, almost invariably, he's either out walking, and talking to her on the phone, or he's here, either sleeping, or in another part of the house talking to her on the phone, usually from whenever he wakes up from his post-work nap until 2 a.m. or so (he has to be at work at 7:30 a.m.). This is a fairly large house, and mostly he spends his waking hours in the basement (where his computer is), and I stay upstairs while he's down there unless I really need something from the basement--I'm trying to give him all the space he wants. But it's also a quiet house, and although I can't hear his words, I can hear his voice from almost any part of the house, except my office sometimes, and when I know he's talking to her, the sound of his voice makes me a little crazy sometimes. When this all began, I used to lie in bed at night, crying, trying not to hear his voice coming through the vents from the room below as he talked and laughed with her, with a pillow over my head to try and block out his voice.
To top it all off, he's spending somewhere along the lines of $500+ per month on wining and dining and hotel-ing her, all while complaining to me about how broke we are. Did I mention that since the beginning of October, I have been doing the brand-new thing of paying for everything I personally buy out of my own income (which is probably still below the poverty level, even though I have been working hard to build it up and it's doing much, much better than it was at any time since 9/11)? That includes all the groceries, all of the household supplies like soap and shampoo and kleenex, all of the expenses for our three cats (my babies), all of my medical bills except dental (which are substantial at this point, between psychiatrist and meds and therapist and regular doctors, and the $4000 worth of tests I had run this spring to check on some general concerns, and why my heart was acting funny (basically stress--imagine that!), and whether I had acquired any STDs from any of H's extramarital relationships, although he has never admitted to anything physical, and we last had sex right before he supposedly met his current OW in person for the first time, so I shouldn't currently be in danger of catching anything from her, whether she really was a virgin when she met H or not. I had a nice chat about all of this mess with my regular doctor, who is a lovely and very interesting woman about my age *and* is also H's doctor. (!) Did you know that when you get tested for AIDS, you have to sign a form saying that you understand that you may be stigmatized just for being tested, because some people will think that the fact that you're being tested means you've been engaged in some risky (read: immoral) behavior? Pbbbbtht! I have to admit, that form was a little disturbing, but I signed it, because I thought it would be better to be sure I didn't have a really horrible disease, even though I didn't think it was likely. If I could trust H farther than from here to the gutter (ahem!), I wouldn't have needed those tests in the first place. *I've* never had sex with anyone I wasn't currently married to, so I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of. (Fortunately, all of my tests came up okay, no major worries.) Another thing--did you know that men can't be tested for the virus that causes cervical cancer? That was another thing that disturbed me in that doctor visit--even if we miraculously get past all of this and get to a place of having a wonderful relationship again, I can't ever have sex with him again without worrying about it possibly leading to something that H's sister (who was cheated on repeatedly by her first H, finally left him and is now remarried) told me was more painful than her three natural childbirth experiences.
I admit it, it took me months to stop the intensive snooping, even though I kept finding things that made me feel as though I'd been gutted, but I think I've got it under control now. I'm not proud of the snooping, but I think it's understandable. I haven't been doing much in that respect for a while though...although I wasn't quite pure-hearted enough to resist the temptation when I found H's private e-mail account wide open on the computer a few weeks ago. Probably served me right that he caught me...and at the suggestion of a wise friend, I later apologized to him for looking (not that he really responded to my apology, but I think it surprised him). On the other hand, because of what I saw in there, I now know for sure that they are having sex (which he has never admitted, although I haven't asked since our initial argument in October); the full PA seems to have begun in April. It's one thing to suspect, and yet have that tiny thread of hope that it's not true, but another thing entirely to know beyond a doubt, and read the graphic details, no less...that was horrible!! Once again...I can't help but wonder what is wrong with a girl who saves her virginity for a man twice her age who still lives with his wife??!! I also saw a little more about what he's thinking and feeling, although I take what he says, especially to her, with a large grain of salt.
In the months since this all began, I have been DBing to the best of my ability, although I didn't actually discover the books (I have read DR) until several weeks after the big showdown in October. I have been GAL, pursuing new hobbies, being mysterious but as friendly and kind as I can stand to be, "detaching with love" as my therapist puts it, renewing friendships that I had let slide a bit, going out a LOT more (I have always been something of an introvert and loner, so this is a serious stretch for me), talking to people and letting them help me, primarily by listening (although there's only so much other people can do, as I'm sure you know), keeping up pretty well with almost all of the changes I made in September when I got scared, plus the things I promised to do if he committed to working on things (even though he hasn't done that), gotten more involved at church, prayed a lot, done an immense amount of journaling, avoided relationship talks when possible, avoided putting any pressure on him or asking him any questions that I didn't think he would want to answer, or didn't think I would like the response to; worked very hard on my business (when I started being able to concentrate a bit better), kept up with my workouts and generally healthy eating to the best of my ability, seen my therapist regularly, leaned on other people when I needed to, and became much more independent (one of his complaints being that I was too dependent) and also a much stronger person. I have learned a great deal from this experience already...although so far the lessons haven't been anywhere near worth the price I have paid for them. I also finally replaced most of the clothes that no longer fit me after the 20-lb weight loss (I hate to shop. I'm not even that fond of chocolate. Yes, I really do have the double-X chromosomes.) All of my pants just hung on me like a tent. My bodyfat measurements tell me that last fall I lost over a third of my bodyfat--more like half--and I've kept most of it off. However, I DO NOT recommend the anorexia/bulimia weight loss method that I used. Although I had been wanting to lose a few pounds, I would rather have kept it on for the rest of my life than gone through this nightmare.
I have had five sessions with a DB coach, Jody, who had an insight about my situation in the first five minutes after I started talking to her that had never occurred to me before, so I was really impressed! (The insight was that my depression and unhappiness makes H, who has the "caretaking" type of personality, feel like a failure, because he can't make me happy...even though he knows *intellectually* that each person is responsible for their own happiness. I believe she was dead-on with that!) She always gives me hope when I talk to her, and helps me fine-tune what I'm doing. Mostly she tells me I'm doing a great job and to stay the course.
Meanwhile, H has gone back to seeing his IC, which I think is a good thing in general, although I am not sure H is being completely honest with his IC (H dishonest? Imagine that!), because H volunteered at one point that his IC said that the reason I wasn't acting upset or anything (DBing at its finest!) was that--get this--nothing has changed for me, because H is still living at home. Hell-OOOO! Idiot check here!! Do you think I haven't noticed that I've been forced into celibacy for the better part of a year, that H doesn't talk to me at all except in basic informational exchanges or to criticize or discourage me, that he seems to want to have nothing to do with me, in fact? You think I don't notice that he would rather drive back and forth and have a phone to his ear for hours on end and spend a lot of money and time and fuel so that he can spend all of his free time with (have sex with) a--okay, I'm gonna say it, don't shoot me--*really fat girl* with little life experience but who obviously has some serious issues, rather than his extremely fit, not-bad-looking gymnast-yogi wife, who has loved and supported and complimented him and stood by him through thick and thin for over twenty years, who's *right there*??! Okay, rant finished, and I know it's not that simple, because I have serious issues too, and I can see that being with someone young enough that he can mold her into what he wants (to some degree) would have its appeal.
Moving on...H seems very unhappy when I'm the only one around, treats me like a relative he doesn't like but is obligated to be polite to, periodically initiates R talks in which he asks me questions I don't know how to answer, and he tells me how confused he is and reiterates that he doesn't know if he has the energy to try again to make things work, tells me that he doesn't know if he can forgive me for what I've put him through(?!!!), asks me "How do I know you won't be right back doing the same things as before in a year or two or ten?" (to which I would like to say, "How do I know you won't be cheating on me again??"); tells me on occasion that he doesn't want to do something because it would be "too much like everything is normal" (to which I just say "Okay," but what I'd like to say is "How is it that you used to say I was the most intelligent person you knew, and yet now you act like I'm an idiot??"), periodically claims to have told me things that I know he hasn't (although this isn't a new thing, I think now it's happening because he thinks of OW as his "wife" and tells her EVERYTHING, so in his mind he's already told his wife whatever it is). He did say to me at one point about six months ago that if we didn't have all of this negative history together, if he were encountering me for the first time now, he would be really intrigued by me. But then there's all these bad things that have happened between us.... Ptui.
I'm certainly nowhere close to perfect--I still have a bucketload of issues that I haven't fully dealt with--but I've accomplished more genuine self-improvement in the last ten months than in the previous ten years. I'm much, much stronger, more confident, more independent, and like myself a lot more. I have a better idea now of who I am and who I want to be, and how to get there. I am more grateful for the things I do have, much as I grieve those I don't have right now. I am less willing to waste my time and my life on things that I don't value. I know I'm made of much stronger material than I realized. I know who my friends are and who really cares about me. I know something that I didn't at all before: I will survive. If I can survive this, by far the worst thing that has ever happened to me, I can survive anything. For the first time since I was 13, I am starting to really believe that I am not worthless, and not every negative thing that people say about me is true. I still struggle with the fact that I don't know why I'm here, what my purpose in living is, but I'm better able to trust that I don't need to know that right now, since God knows, and that's enough. I still have plenty of moments of doubt, usually when I've just come across some new horror that he has created, but they are fewer now than they have been in years. The medication doesn't actually make me happy, but it definitely helps me not to get so caught up in the whole drama of the situation, and to be more objective and detached.
One of the most disturbing things H has told me (and I know I've used that term a lot) is that once early on, when I was trying to get a better grip on what was going on in his head, I asked him what he believed that God thought about all of this, and he replied, "I'm not sure I believe in God any more, and even if I do, I don't really care what he thinks." This was one of the few things he has ever said that shocked me, and that was because ever since I first met him, H really felt strongly about his faith, although he didn't talk about it constantly (he did music in his church every week for 10 years after we got married), and truly believed that he was to be a bridge between faiths (I am of a different denomination). Of course, later on when it came up, he claimed that I misheard or misinterpreted him. Uh huh. I admit that I asked him because I had (at that time) some hope that he might have some moral sense that would at least get him going in the right direction, but no such luck, apparently. I had a long session with my pastor shortly after that, and he told me this sort of loss of faith is common with people in H's situation. Interestingly enough, not too long after that conversation, the Christian band that H was in for over two years booted him out, with no explanation. I swear I had nothing to do with it, although I was tempted to call up the band leader and ask him if he knew that one of the band members was actively engaged in adultery...but I didn't. Someone else may have let something slip, perhaps. I have no clue. Oh, here's another irony for you: despite this issue he seems to have with God, he's told me several times that he's "waiting for a sign" to tell him which way to jump off the fence! Don'tcha love it?
I started seeing a few signs of MLC in H at least five years ago, but I never had any idea that's what they were until I read DR, at which point I was reading the MLC section and saying, "Has this lady been a fly on the wall in my house??" The first sign was that around 1999 or 2000, he started getting snippy and defensive with me, when he had always been the most patient, loving and generous person I knew. Then there was his EA in 2001. Then, we already had a convertible, but for his 39th birthday, in 2003, H bought a sporty new car. Then in 2005, he started a major overhaul of his fitness (I joined the program too), and he looked *really* good at the end of it. He was seriously into tanning at that point, too; I used to call him "Zonker" to tease him (think "Doonesbury," if you were following the comic back in the day--Zonker was in a tanning contest and was obsessed with it to the point of using reflectors to tan between his toes). I kept going with the fitness program--still am, in fact--but right after he got to looking fantastic, his mother died, and then he just gradually let it all go, and now I think he might actually be in worse shape than before he started the program. I'm pretty sure he's gained weight since he met the current OW. Then in 2006, he got LASIK and ditched his glasses. And then in 2007, he started his current affair, and here we are. Heck in a handbasket on a roller coaster without a handbrake.
That was *way* longer than I had planned, so thanks for staying with me! I will very likely be much more succinct in future posts!
I'm here for support and any advice that may be offered. Hopefully I can help some others at some point too. We're in this together, in some sense. At least here I probably won't get the advice that a lot of people are giving me (namely, don't let the door hit him on the way out! Pack his clothes and change the locks!). I know he's cake-eating, but I'm not quite sure there's a better way to deal with it than I already am. I don't know how to better walk that line between DBing effectively and being a doormat. I do feel strongly that I am not meant to give up on him or our marriage, as horrible as things are, and as painful as it is to have him around when he is treating me like this. I made vows and I plan to keep them. That is not so much about him as it is about me, about my integrity and honoring my commitments. Easier said than done, of course! I don't even want to say how long it took me to stop seriously considering following in the footsteps of Lorena Bobbitt!
Thanks for reading all of this, and thanks for any help or support you might be willing to offer!
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
Okay, I know my first post was REEEAAALLLYYY long...don't feel like you have to read the whole thing before responding! Just bumping up and looking for a little feedback...
Thanks so much! Dawn of Hope
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
Saw your post and thought I would stop in and say hello. You sound like you're doing all the right stuff. I'm just wondering about your cake-eating comment, and you feeling like a doormat. Do you think it's worth putting some boundaries in place?
I think it's great that your H is still at home, although that's got to be hard on you on a day to day basis. Post often- there are many more experienced that me on the boards and great advice abounds, although it's quiet at the weekends.
Oh, and ignore people in RL- I find that they don't understand the concept of DB at all!
Hi, One Day, Thanks so much for responding! I am really looking forward to building a rapport with all the nice people here who are in the same boat that I am!
You are right, friends and relatives and so forth are mostly supportive of me (although I have had a few betrayals ), but a lot of them really don't have a clue why I haven't booted him out the door (or they think I'm some kind of a wimp, or a bit of a fool who is unwilling to face reality). They don't understand that it takes more guts to stand and DB than to give up.
Yes, it is hard to see H regularly and feel the waves of coldness coming from him, especially when I see how warm and friendly he is with everyone else. I want to say, "What did I ever do to you that you feel I deserve to be treated like this??!" But then he'd probably tell me....
I have not really tried to set any boundaries with him, as I have a strong feeling that that will drive him right out the door. He comes and goes as he pleases. Usually he tells me where he's going...or if OW is involved, just that he's going away/out of town until x time. The main thing that really steamed me that I might have some control over (not much I can control, of course) is him bringing her here when I'm gone. I didn't really say much to him when I found out he had done that. But I couldn't keep my anger from leaking out around the edges, so I know he knew I was displeased, since the next time I was going out of town, he told me OW was in town but volunteered (I did not say anything about this or make a request) that they would stay elsewhere and he wouldn't bring her to the house "because you objected." (Imagine that!!!) Of course, I ended up not going out of town that weekend after all (too much work, too little sleep--didn't decide this until after he left for the weekend, though), and I noticed that when he left that Friday, he didn't take so much as a toothbrush, and ended up having to buy toiletries and clothes to supply himself until he got home again late Monday night, after going to work that day. Also, that Saturday afternoon, I was standing in front of our neighbors' house talking to them about this whole situation, and here came H's car around the corner...and OW was with him. When he saw me, he didn't even stop, just kept on going, and that was the last I saw of him until Monday night...although right after his drive-by, he called my cell phone and left a message along the lines of "Stopped by to check on the cats, but since you're still there I guess you're not going...call me if you want to discuss anything." Riiiiiiight. And I'm supposed to say...what? Again, he seems to suddenly believe I'm an idiot and will believe that he was telling me the truth about not bringing her to the house...keep in mind that I did not ask for this promise, it was entirely his idea. I'm supposed to believe that he really wanted to spend his time with her shopping for stuff he had at home already, and that her being with him in the car when he came by the house on Saturday was...what, an accident?
Anyway, that was in April, and in June, I went out of town again for my scheduled class...when he was leaving for work that Thursday morning, he asked if I was actually going this time, and when I said yes, he wanted to know when I was going and coming back. I told him (Fri a.m. to Sun night) and he told me he was going to be out of town from that night (Thursday) until Saturday, so I might leave extra food for the cats. Then he said, "Have a safe trip," left for work, and I didn't see him for four days. I got in Sunday night and he was in bed with no sign of OW having been there at all, even though he told me he wasn't expecting me for some hours yet (the time he did actually have her in the house, he told me he was going to clean things up so I wouldn't find out right away, since he figured I would find out eventually, but he thought it would be better if it wasn't right afterward) (!!). Anyway, I saw later that he actually did go out of town this time, although he didn't come back until sometime midday Sunday...so maybe he has learned his lesson. I'm not holding my breath, though. Besides which, holding your breath is not a healthy practice.
Anyway, I'd love to lay down the law with him and tell him all the things he's doing that aren't acceptable, but I have felt all along that this course of action with him is not going to be to my advantage, tempting as it is. My pastor and my IC both encouraged me way back in November to give him a deadline for his "decision" about staying vs. going. I have a hard time bucking authority, so I wanted to follow their advice (in addition to feeling like the limbo I was in was almost worse than what he had actually done already), but I had read DR by then, and from that I gained the confidence to tell both of them that I really felt like God was telling me not to do that, and to let things unfold in their own time, without my pushing them. They both respected my decision and supported me in what I chose.
So...this is plenty long enough for now. Thanks again for posting to my thread, and I look forward to more postings!
Peace, Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
Hope you're having a good day today. Personally, I think I'd need to set a boundary with H, at least that OW is not allowed to be in/stay at, your home. I can't imagine how awful it must be to think of her being in your place, but in my sitch, I try to not think of the OW at all if I can possibly help it!
I think there are some success stories where people have set boundaries and not seen any harm come to their situation. as you say, it's a line between prtecting yourself and allowing the MLC to continue, but I think if it bothers you that she's been to your house, you do need to protect yourself first!
Hi, One Day, Thanks for stopping by again! I keep hoping more people on this board will find this thread and give me the benefit of their wisdom!
Yes, it bothers me to think that H might bring OW here again, but realistically I can't stop him from doing so, so why make an issue of it? I need to hunt around more and see if I can find threads that talk about effectively setting boundaries with WAS, as I'm not sure how to do that and still DB properly. When I first found out OW had been here (when I got home six hours or so after she had left my house), I didn't say much, and was DBing like crazy, avoiding saying anything I would regret later, but I'm pretty sure he could see the steam coming out of my ears. He was talking about how he didn't want me to find out right away, and I asked why, and he was saying something along the lines of "I can see why it would be difficult for you to know that she's been here, in your own house..." It was like he could recite all of the correct answers, but he didn't feel like the "rules" applied to him! I couldn't think of anything to say that I thought would get through to him in a positive way, so I just tried to be as noncommittal as possible. I just don't think he would take anything I said to heart unless it was what he wanted to hear.
A couple of other notes about what he is doing...he still puts on his wedding ring every day before he leaves the house, unless he's going to exercise or something (both of us have always taken our rings off before bed every night...early on in our marriage, he thought this was a good thing, as he commented that it causes one to need to give at least a little thought every day to the choice to be married). He even wears it when he is going to be with OW! I don't know if he wears it while he is actually with her or not, as I have never really been anywhere near her or seen them together (unless you count the drive-by of our house that they did together while I was supposed to be out of town in April, but all I really saw was that it was definitely his car and there was a person in the passenger seat, but she had her face turned away from me, deliberately I think; I didn't even actually see him driving, they went by so fast)...but he's always wearing his ring when he comes back from seeing her. (Well, except one time several weeks ago when we were both out of town for the weekend--me for class and him for OW--and his ring was nowhere to be seen when I got home. It made me very nervous while his ring was MIA, but it reappeared when he got back from work the next night. I don't know what he did with it in the meantime, but he has continued to put it on daily, as always, ever since.)
Gotta go to bed...it's 5 a.m. and I'm exhausted. I've been spending a ridiculous amount of time traveling around this board! I have a lot of work to do tomorrow (technically today) and I also need to take one of our 3 cats to a specialist about an eye problem that's concerning our regular vet. Also have an appointment with my psychiatrist.
Onward and upward! Peace, Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
Dawn, I just found your thread and I want you know that you are really not alone in your story. My H is also having an EA on Second Life... About 6 weeks ago I used his laptop and saw a strange e-mail account I had never seen before and this is how I discovered the first EA (yes, he's on his second now). I read two e-mails and ran to him and confronted him in rage. He immediately said "I think we should separate. I've been thinking about it for a while but I couldn't get up the courage to ask you." And that was that.
For about two months or so prior to that he was online in this game way more than usual and I used to joke with him about it, mostly because I was worried in a way, and it was keeping him from coming to bed. He would fall asleep online, or just be up really late online and I was getting worried about it. He also had surgery during this time and was off from work for two weeks, giving him more time to be online, plus during his recovery he would sleep/nap during the day and then be up at weird hours, likely online. I just shrugged it off as recovery, but now I think he was sinking into a male depression and this fantasy world fed something in him. He couldn't do any physically -- like play golf or work -- so he was on his butt on the couch and the computer was his only outlet, no matter how many times I encouraged him to just sit outside for some fresh air, or come out with my D and I...
So he had an EA with one woman, met her, but I don't think it was a "love" thing; then I noticed through recent snooping that he's off of her and on to another woman who lives across the country (thank God for that).
I also agree that my H is acting like a love-sick teen -- this woman (who is 15 years older than him with a grown daughter and, BTW, married!) is sending him love poems she wrote and *kisses* and all this other sappy New Age mumbo jumbo and wants to send him golf clubs to try out (her dad was a golf pro, apparently, and my husband is a golf nut -- how perfect!). The whole think is sooooo HIGH SCHOOL -- she has e-mailed him "chat" conversations that she's had with the woman who was his first "EA" -- it's like Second Life gossip in their stupid incestuous community of ridiculous people who have no REAL LIVES so they spend it in this stupid virutal cartoon world.
I'm fed up with the whole thing and so sad about it at the same time. I love my H... He never communicated to me that he was so unhappy. Some of the reasons he gave me were valid, and I can change and are making changes as I go through this Limboland, but some were just excuses. I'm am DB-ing to the best of my ability, but I am also an introvert for the most part, so the GAL part has been a little difficult. Plus I am basically a SAHM for my D, so I don't have a work life to fall back on right now...
Like you, my H still lives at home -- in our basement family room. But he will interact with my D and I, and is pleasant to me when I am kind and act happy. He even bought a video game system recently that I said I wanted (and know he probably wanted) and plays the games with my D and I. I think (and hope) that right now he is torn between reality and fantasy. I also think he is pressured by the realness of reality, such as having a family and a house and a job and all the responsibilities that comes with those. He is also drinking more, and started smoking cigarettes again after quitting before we were married. He is definitely stressed and suffering, and has some form of depression and a MLC.
He has admitted that Second Life is an "escape" for him. I do think he's addicted to the escape. And he repeatedly said early on in this that he just wants to be "alone." Again, he wants to escape. I'm currently giving him his freedom, not pressuring, and I think he's respecting me more for that. But he still retires to his basement "lair" each night after my D goes to bed, leaving me alone upstairs -- which is the hardest part.
I just don't know how long I can go on this way. I miss him terribly, and I still love him so, and I want my family intact. I am holding on for dear life and hoping that I can make it through this and come out the other end with a success story.
But Second Life is evil. Hate it. I hope someone exposes it for what it really is and people stop touting its benefits. I know now we had problems that made him vulnerable in Second Life, but I do think that it made it "easy" for him to cheat. And I really hate it for that.
So that's my long and involved story -- you can follow my thread "Dealing with a Depressed Husband" in "Newcomers"...
Good luck! You are not alone!
M 39 H 34 D 6 M almost 8 years T 11 years Bomb: 6/5/08
My marriage ended because of Second Life. My ex started an EA with a woman from another state. She is an anorexic, agoraphobic, bisexual, bipolar mother of three with an abusive husband. He was secretly sending her money to supposedly help her escape her husband. He was up at all hours of the night supposedly working on the computer. He was really playing this stupid game and having cybersex with her. He moved out a few months after telling me about the affair and still spends all of his free time playing these online games. Well, I finally gave up my fight and got divorced last October.
I am so glad now that I did not wait longer. His spending has gotten insane and he has changed from nice to nasty. Although he claims that they are just friends, he has recently bought a house in her state for her to live in, since her parents won't let her move in with them and she still needs to escape this abusive husband. I don't know how he managed to get the loan for it. He rents a little apartment here that he lives in.
Sometime around six months after the divorce was final he started to blame me for everything and has started spewing. I am getting constant nasty emails from him. I am so glad that I got my divorce while he was still generous and did not fight me on custody.
I wish you both, Dawn of Hope and loveHopeFaith, the best of luck saving your marriages. Know that these online relationships are very real to these messed up men. They can play knight in shining armor and save these women. I do not believe that even now my ex is having a physical relationship with this woman, but it doesn't matter. The emotional, fantasy component is very strong. Many of these men have no friends or activities in real life so these fake worlds mean everything to them. In my case, my ex showed no ambivalence over his decision to leave our marriage for his new life.
In terms of my life, I am doing well when not dealing with my crazy ex. I have been dating a very nice man who was left by his wife after 20 years of marriage for a man she dated in high school. (She reconnected with him online.) I have built a new life for myself. My friend and I are building a conscious relationship built on honesty and are very happy together.
Me45 H45 D13 S10 together-23 years married-21 years MLC Divorced 10/3/07 Married to a wonderful new man.
I was so sorry to read your story. I know that this OW in SL provides some kind of satisfaction to my H, although it still baffles me that he needs to find this connection in a fake world. I do think my H feels some abivalence about real life vs. fake life, but he can't abandon the latter until he deals with his emotions and issues in real life. So, I wait. Until he's ready. Or until I lose it. But right now I am prepared to wait.
He has agreed to MC, but only to pacify me and I believe initially he agreed so someone would tell him how to get out of here without emotionally crippling by me and our D. But I refuse to go right now, until I am in a better place to deal with this all (I'm in IC) and until we are in a better place where he doesn't see me as the evil wife who kept him back in some way. Right now, I DB and IC and we'll see where it goes in the coming weeks.
I know he won't give up Second Life right now. If I gave him that ultimatum, SL would win. So instead, I just put up with it, as long as he's giving the slightest bit of daily interaction to my D, who I believe needs her Dad around right now. As for me, I look for baby steps. I know deep down that my H is a good, loving person and I do believe that the guilt of the situation will win over in the end. How long will that take? I don't know.
Right now he's definitely messed up. I feel bad that our problems were not tackled before he was seduced by SL women, but he never expressed his true emotions to me. So I can't beat myself up too much out that. I can only DB, hope and pray that he sees the light.
M 39 H 34 D 6 M almost 8 years T 11 years Bomb: 6/5/08
My ex never communicated his feelings either. We always joked that he was a Vulcan. (He would raise his eyebrow in response, just like Spock did.) I honestly was happy in my 20 years of marriage and I believe he was too, as much as a depressed man can be happy. Until months before the bomb, he claimed he loved me and we would be together forever.
My ex also agreed to therapy to get me to accept the divorce. At first the MC told me that she thought there was hope for our marriage. Over a few months she finally told me that she thought he had either Aspergers or Shizoid personality disorder because he was so oblivious to his feelings. He could never talk about his thoughts and was emotionally distant our whole marriage. I think his MLC made his personality disorder come out in full force. Because he was so shy and closed, he could only open up to people with the anonymity of these online games. The MC told me that although most marriages fail because of both parties, in my case she thought it was because he was just a broken person. I believe I do share some blame for the problems because I was too controlling and never should have married someone emotionally unavailable. I will not make that mistake again. (New guy shares his thoughts and feelings with me and it is GLORIOUS!)
The MC doubted she could ever fix him, but would continue to work with him to try to develop parenting skills. My ex still sees the C and he does interact with the children now, though he is more like a peer to them than like a parent. Just last night, my D11 mentioned how it is so nice that her father talks to her now, something he never did when he was home. (He can only handle small talk about movies and toys, but it is something.)
I do believe my ex is a good, loving but ill person. I can't fix him and had to get out of the marriage to protect me and the children. I wish you all luck, but encourage you to track your finances and protect yourself. At the very minimum, make copies of everything financial, just in case. At some point, you may want to see a L, just to know how to protect yourself.
Me45 H45 D13 S10 together-23 years married-21 years MLC Divorced 10/3/07 Married to a wonderful new man.
So sorry--I know it's hard to read these long posts--feel free to skim if you like!
), but a lot of them really don't have a clue why I haven't booted him out the door (or they think I'm some kind of a wimp, or a bit of a fool who is unwilling to face reality). They don't understand that it takes more guts to stand and DB than to give up.