The Bumpy Road to Recovery

[Mamabear]

I wasn't being sarcastic...sadly, I was serious.

[Bagheera]

((((Mamabear))))

I'm sorry I misunderstood! I reread it this morning, and it sounded awfully preachy and sappy to me (although I still agree with it).

Best regards,

--B.

[DanceQueen]

Bag - your post was not preachy, and if it was sappy, then well, that is just another way of saying *loving*.

I can hardly bear to look back at myself at age 26, when I was young and married to a man who felt the way you felt in your journal passage, and yet I was so stupid that I could not see past my own nose...that poor young girl had not a clue how to really give and receive love, let alone make love.

I'm so glad you and your wife will get the chance to make your marriage work the right way.

DQ

[Bagheera]

I can hardly bear to look back at myself at age 26....

Well, to be fair: after returning home from sea and letting my wife look through those journal entries, she would tell me how hard it was for her to feel a physical desire for me without first re-establishing emotional intimacy between us. Although I was gone much of the time, she needed to feel like I was doing what I could to support her and help her care for our (then) 1 year old boy -- who had become the center of her universe.

Neither one of us really "GOT" the other one, and neither one of us, therefore, were getting our own needs met.

I was no better than you, DQ, not at all.

-- B.

[SillyOldBear]

Thanks for linking me here from my thread, Bagheera. You're right; I can see the parallel to my own situation. Here's what I see making it so hard: there's yet another Catch-22 here. Michele talks about "taking your spouse at face value." To me, that means you shouldn't be playing mind games, and in particular, you shouldn't be trying to outfox or outguess your wife--you are to assume that she's being honest and give her what she says she wants.

BUT . . . . on the other hand, she's probably telling you she wants this gentle, safe, cuddly teddy bear cloned from the DNA of Phil Donahue and Leonardo Dicaprio. She's probably not admitting that she wants Gene Simmons--so if you take her at face value, you do more of what's not working, also something Michele warns not to do. You do it with your wife's approval and blessing, but you still don't make anything better.

Your rendering of the inner turmoil of the wife trying to figure out what "are you tired?" means is worth reading the entire thread. I'm sure some version of that has to be going through my wife's head when I say things like that, and I know I do it.
On the other hand, that's not the whole story, because I've swung back and forth between manly seduction and "giving her space" several times over the years. Maybe my seduction wasn't very seductive, but it was my best shot, honestly given.

That's what truly frightens me about my marriage. What if I work and work and do the best I can do, and she still doesn't want me? What if I'm just plain not attractive?

[Delil@h]

What if I'm just plain not attractive?

I dunno how it is for other Women but it really isnt about looks for me ( my h is good looking BTW).... it is about how my H makes me feel.

Yeah I would rather be Married to Gene Simmons than Phil Donahue,,, but I also want him to be faithful to me and me alone.

I think Men forget that Women like to be Romanced but we also like for Men to take charge... and not in a Neanderthal way but in a Manly way.
It really turns me on when my H does manly things,,,, and when he acts like a cave man?

EEEEW big turn off.

I also think there is a huge difference between giving space and then being seductive... maybe some middle ground would be good...

Example.... you come up behind her and kiss her neck "seductively" and hug her from behind and leave it at that.

I dunno what your sitch is so maybe my example is far too bold yet for her.

And just like the title of the thread.. it will be bumpy for awhile and then for some reason when you both get it it seems like the road is smooth sailing...... it is well worth the effort.
All you can do now is give your best and then later if it doesnt work out you can contemplate. So now focus on what you can do to change.
That alone ,not on ~what if.
Maybe she wants a Mix of Leo and Gene.
Like someone told me .. slow down and really pay attention to what she wants what she needs and what works.
I have been doing that for awhile now ( 3 weeks about w/ another 2 under my belt of Reconciling... pheew~!*) ,

really paying attention to my hubby.
He really likes if I put him in my mouth w/o expecting anything in return... wooooohooooooooooooooo!
last nite he said he was cold... I replied..

"well if I put your C*CK in my mouth I bet you wont be cold anymore..."
He replied " probably not."

So I also gather Men dont really want to be Married to Jennifer Aniston they really want to be Married to Angelina Jolie and if she can cook and clean that is a bonus....

Sorry to hijack but you seem to be trying so hard in your post I thought I would give you my 2 cents.

Just a thought...
Take Care SB~
~Ali

[SillyOldBear]

I dunno how it is for other Women but it really isnt about looks for me ( my h is good looking \:\( BTW).... it is about how my H makes me feel.

Yes, but I don't mean "What if I'm ugly?" That ship sailed long ago. I mean "What if I'm not attractive?" In other words, what if nothing I do makes her feel attracted to me? Frankly I don't care if I'm never "pretty" as long as my wife wants me. But she doesn't.
The way I make her feel . . . apathetic, apparently.

Example.... you come up behind her and kiss her neck "seductively" and hug her from behind and leave it at that.

Depends on the day. She might smile as she pulls away from me. If she forgets to be diplomatic, she'll say something like "Would you stop it?"
Hugs are great. Anything as sexual as kissing her neck is inappropriate.

Your husband is a lucky man. I'm sure you had some really lousy times, but I'd jump for joy if my wife cared enough to try to do what you're doing. I hope it works out!

[Bagheera]

Here's what I see making it so hard: there's yet another Catch-22 here. Michele talks about "taking your spouse at face value." To me, that means you shouldn't be playing mind games, and in particular, you shouldn't be trying to outfox or outguess your wife--you are to assume that she's being honest and give her what she says she wants.

There's something important to keep in mind here, something that is hard for us mere men to understand. That is: women "warm up" to sex gradually (in most instances), not instantly, like a man. The old "Men are like microwaves and Women are like crock-pots" analogy isn't a bad one.

So when you ask your wife if she "wants to go upstairs," she may literally be sitting there thinking: "Hmmm..*that* hasn't even crossed my mind today. Do I? I'm not really sure."

Meanwhile, you're sitting there thinking: "What the heck! It's a simple Yes / No question....dammit...she's getting ready to turn me down again!"

And if you get flustered, show irritation or resigned-rejection on your face, you've pretty much blown it: she'll take one look at you being rather un-loving and un-seductive and decide that she'd rather not.

Here's a few things you can do that *may* help:

(1) Maintain a strong emotional connection with her throughout the day: not sexual, just close. Someone once wrote (in one of my many books) that foreplay begins that morning, not at 11 PM that night.

(2) That evening, try giving her an early warning as to what you have in mind for later. Get her thinking about it and considering it. NOTE: I have had mixed results with this one -- sometimes it worked, and sometimes you could watch the pressure between us just build as the evening went on.

(3) Be patient when you ask her, and recognize that it takes more than just a wink and a seductive smile for most women. STAY COOL, and give her time to consider.

(4) Offer her a good massage as a precursor. We have found that gentle physical touch and doing something that allows my wife to *relax* is a great way to get the old crock-pot simmering. You can try the no-strings-attached approach to the massage, but you need to be very prepared if *nothing* happens beyond a thank-you.

(5) Get your wife to adopt the Just Do It! approach -- it really does work, and for the reasons that I've stated above. Again, this just about *requires* that she understand how vital the physical connection is for YOU, the man. Many women just don't get it, and therefore don't understand the depth of the hurt they cause with their rejections. It's just sex, right? Wrong.....

If your wife is acting reluctant or unsure, but has not given you a very clear "No" or "Not tonight," then in essence, she's asking you to convince her, to do more, to help her fan the ember a bit. It's not a mind-game or anything, it's an honest expression of how she's really feeling -- which is what you asked for in your post.

Welcome to Gender Differences 202!

Bagheera

[SillyOldBear]

1) Maintain a strong emotional connection with her throughout the day: not sexual, just close. Someone once wrote (in one of my many books) that foreplay begins that morning, not at 11 PM that night.

I'm not always good at this, I know. I try.

(2) That evening, try giving her an early warning as to what you have in mind for later. Get her thinking about it and considering it. NOTE: I have had mixed results with this one -- sometimes it worked, and sometimes you could watch the pressure between us just build as the evening went on.

Me, too. There was a time when I thought I was rushing her and she just needed more time to "get in the mood." And sometimes, that works--it's like she thinks about it all day, and eventually the thought is arousing. But maybe I overdid it or something, because generally if I say something suggestive about later, she does her sigh routine and tells me flat out right then that she'll be too tired later. It's OK for me to give her time to get in the mood, but she often won't give herself the time.

(3) Be patient when you ask her, and recognize that it takes more than just a wink and a seductive smile for most women. STAY COOL, and give her time to consider.

That's a relief; I don't think I could pull off a seductive smile if I had a gun to my head. I'm not much better at being patient, but I know I have to make it happen.

(4) Offer her a good massage as a precursor. We have found that gentle physical touch and doing something that allows my wife to *relax* is a great way to get the old crock-pot simmering. You can try the no-strings-attached approach to the massage, but you need to be very prepared if *nothing* happens beyond a thank-you.

I do give "no-strings" massages. I'm not saying that has never led to sex, but I will say I can't remember it ever happening. The only time massages lead to sex is when she's already clearly in the mood (she has a pretty good seductive smile when she feels like showing it.)

(5) Get your wife to adopt the Just Do It! approach -- it really does work, and for the reasons that I've stated above. Again, this just about *requires* that she understand how vital the physical connection is for YOU, the man. Many women just don't get it, and therefore don't understand the depth of the hurt they cause with their rejections. It's just sex, right? Wrong.....

That's the trick. We've talked about this idea many times in the past. I didn't have a name for it, but I reasoned for myself that since she enjoys sex so much once it starts, we should be starting more often. I told her that if she would agree to give me a certain amount of time--say 3-5 minutes--to try to stimulate her, then she could decide at the end of that time whether she wanted me to stop or not. I was confident that she would usually not want to stop once the "seal was broken" as it were. I guess she thought so, too, because she never let me try it.

[Bagheera]

We hear of so few success stories on this SSM board, that I thought I might do a small bit of journaling to share my thoughts tonight.

Over on SillyOldBear's Thread, we've been discussing my suspicion that Bear's wife, despite the fact that she is a strong, naturally dominant woman, wants / needs Bear to be stronger than she is --> to be the Man of the house, take charge, and lead the relationship, both in and out of the bedroom. This led to a follow-up discussion on DanceQueen's Thread, in which she freely talks about how it is exactly this type of relationship that makes her feel the most loved and turns her into a sexual dynamo. In addition, Alimari frequently praises the changes that her husband has made in finally becoming the Real Man that attracts her and turns her on. There is a pattern here, me thinks.

The road to a male-led relationship, however, is often not an easy one, particularly for a strong, feminist woman married to a man who believed that such relationships were 'wrong' and a thing of the past. As with Bear's wife, this desire on my wife's part for me to 'man up' and take charge of the relationship was an incredibly difficult thing for her to talk about. It went against her strong, independent nature. There is also a romantic part of her who felt that if I loved her, if I understood her well enough, then I should have just known, without her having to tell me. In fact, telling me would ruin the effect to a large degree -- it would be a form of her having to take control and dictate, which is the opposite of what she wanted. It took her many years, and a significant improvement in our relationship, just to give me a hint as to what she truly desired in our sexual relationship. It was then up to me to take that hint and figure the rest out on my own.

During my investigation of how to proceed, I found the Taken in Hand website, and in the course of reading over the articles, I wondered if what she really wanted extended outside of the bedroom as well. Using email as a form of non-verbal communication, I sent her a link to the site and asked her to look it over. In return, she sent back a reply indicating that the site looked "helpful" and was "so far, so good," based upon her initial review. She has rarely been that direct in face-to-face communication, and I don't expect her to be. I have enough to go on for now.

Over the past couple of months since these revelations, I have stepped up to the plate and taken charge of the relationship and the family in ways that I had not done previously. On the one hand, caring for and supporting my family, and cherishing my wife, are the easy parts -- after months of work at improving our marriage, I was pretty much there already. On the other hand, gaining my wife's submission outside of the bedroom will be a more gradual process: she is not one to give up power easily, nor will she give it up to a blustering fool. That is, I will have to conquer my strong-willed woman as if she were a heroine in one of her romance novels: a process that we have both thoroughly enjoyed thus far, and one that will never truly end -- I married a lioness, not a pussycat (and I wouldn't change that for anything).

The biggest benefit so far, for the both of us, has been a level of love, connection, and trust that is unprecedented in our marriage. Her surrender gives her a feeling of being protected, cherished, and cared for in a way that is deeper than she has experienced before. At same time, her surrender gives me a feeling of being trusted, admired, and needed in a way that is deeper than I have experienced before. For those who know their John Gray, you'll notice a direct comparison between what I have mentioned above and his listed "primary loves needs" for men and women in the Men are Mars, Women are from Venus book. Inside of the bedroom, the changes have been nothing short of remarkable. Unlike our beloved DQ, I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say that my marriage is sex-starved no longer...and then some. While it may not work for every couple, this new relationship dynamic works extremely well for us, and in a most gratifying way.

Best regards,

Bagheera