Where do...I...go from here?

[MissH]

Geez TP, I am just getting caught up with your latest thread and I got to say your H sounds a lot like mine, and both of us sound a lot alike!

H is giving me the money required, but is not sticking to the visitation. He wants me to be flexible, but he won't.

Yep, same here. JA wants me to give, give, give but won't give anything in return.

He agreed verbally in front of both Lawyers to do some things that he is now backing out on,

Same here too! My L asked his L and him "what is the point of verbally agreeing to anything if you guys always change your mind and don't stick to anything?"

When I had to counterfile, my L asked the court to make H responsible for all attorney's fees. It was my understanding that was something that would be decided by the judge at the end of the case during the settlement phase

I also told my L that I wanted JA to be responsible for the attorney fees. I am hoping he will be considering a)I am a SAHM b) he is the one who had the affair and did not want to work on our M and filed for divorce c) why should my parents have to pay for it?

If I don't give in to his every request, he spews

Get that too! They are like a 2 year old in a store that if they don't get what they want they get down on the floor and start screaming. It's a ploy to get what they want. Don't give in.

He always wanted me to be a stay-at-home mom for our kids, but he did seem to start "looking down" on that. Asking "what do you do all day!" when things around the house weren't exactly to his liking

There were a few times when we had some financial problems and I offered to get a job, and he didn't want that.

I'm telling you, twins!!! My H always said that he didn't want to put the kids into daycare and he did not want someone else raising our kids. After his MLC started he would come home and look around and ask what did I do all day. He acted like I did nothing but sit on my ass all day and watch soap operas. It would really bother me because I would do a lot during the day. Did he think the fairy godmother was the one who did his laundry and put it all away? Did he think she was the one who cleaned the house? Anyway, it was like walking on eggshells. Nothing I did was right. I thought I kept a clean house but I wanted to please him so I started to take extra good care of it. Didn't matter. He would come home and wouldn't say how nice the house looked, instead, he would look for something to complain about.

I remember the summer before his MLC hit, we were going through financial issues and I offered to get a job. He told me "no, your responsibility is to stay home with the kids and take care of them, let me be responsible for making the money. Besides which, with the type of job I have, I can't promise you that I will be home in time for you to go to yours." Now he goes around telling everyone I was too lazy to get a job.

Anyway, what is going on with your L? Is your H still pressing you on it?

[tpaschal]

Hello, all. It's been a while since I posted. Think I'm depressed. KNOW I'm depressed.

Mrs. H---thanks for checking out my thread. Seems our H's are two of a kind, though yours probably still takes top honors for most JA'ed behavior. Mine's a very close runner up, though.

Well, L quit yesterday. L and paralegal have been telling me all along that L would wait to see if the judge ordered H to pay L's interim legal fees on May 21 court date (court date is to ask for appraisal of house, evaluation of business practice) and that if he got paid, he would stay on the case.

He lied. I think he finally figured out that there really is no big money to be made off of this case, and it's just too much bother for him. Especially since I'm keeping him from prosecuting the case as aggressively (read: expensively) as he wants. I had no problems with him being aggressive or firm or even nasty when the situation called for it, but he wants to hire a forensic accountant to the tune of 10-15K, a business evaluator for 10-15K, etc, etc. And who would get stuck with that bill, and with little or nothing to show for it? Me! And there's no way I can afford that.

So, now I have no lawyer, no money to hire a new lawyer, and a $10,000 bill for a lawyer who accomplished nothing and won't even finish up on the Temporary Orders, which are still not signed and in place.

I am low. Very, very low.

Anybody been in this sitch before? I have no idea what will happen with the judge on May 21. A final court date for the D was set for August 4. Will the judge give me more time to find a new lawyer and get everything in place? I'm so lost.

[tpaschal]

P.S. I'm trying to look at this as a blessing, but I'm not sure I've convinced myself of this yet.

Anyone else see a silver lining anywhere?

lol. <---wearily---it was more of a weak chuckle.

[tpaschal]

H was a putz again about Mother's Day. Agreed verbally with me that we would switch weekends so that they would be with me for the whole Mother's Day weekend, and agreed that I would do the same for him for Father's Day weekend.

Then went back on it, denied that he agreed to it, and was only going to bring them back home late Sat. night or early Sun. morning. I ended up having to get my L involved. (At least last week I still had a L!) Had to get his lawyer to inform him that according to Texas law, the mother does get the kids for the whole of Mother's Day weekend.

What's up with that? Does he think I would lie about it? Could he not look it up himself?

My H also just walks into the house as he pleases. I wanted him to feel comfortable here at home hanging out with the kids, to make this still a warm and welcoming place for him, but I have made a couple of boundaries---asking him to not come in my bedroom, and to not take any more stuff out of the house in front of the kids. He crosses both of those boundaries continually, and when I asked him the other day to leave my bedroom, he absolutely would not. I got frustrated, so I know it made him feel like he "won."

I should have just walked away, but I'm so, so tired of being disrespected. I sent the kids away on an errand (to bring their dirty laundry downstairs) and told him that I did not appreciate him ignoring my boundaries. I was calm, but told him that he had disrespected me in just about every way that a man could disrespect a woman, and I didn't think it was too much to ask for him to stay out of my bedroom. He just pooh-poohed it and said I was being childish and immature.

ARGH!!!

[MissH]

TP, sorry to hear about your L quitting but in all honestly, I don't think he would of done a good job representing you. What you have said about him makes me not like him. Too greedy and doesn't sound like he has your best interest in mind.

I wish I knew what to say in regards to getting a new L. Is there anyone in your family that can help you out financially with this?

I am glad you got the children on Mother's Day. Yep, for sure your H and mind are very much alike. Blah!

I love how they say we are being childish and immature when it's really them!

[tpaschal]

Mrs. H,

Yep, you are so right. I just thought of the child's chant, "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!"

Hmmm.....guess I WOULD look childish and immature if I chanted this at him! LOL!

As for the L, I was pretty upset with him anyway, so it probably is a good thing he is withdrawing. I do not think he was doing a good job for me.

I do not have any wealthy family who could help me out. (And the L even asked me this---asked if there was anyone in my family who would pay his bill! What nerve!! He knows he'll get his money eventually---the court would take it out of my settlement to give him before they give it to me!) My mom and dad have decent jobs but have suffered a lot of financial hardships over the years. Same with my younger sister and her husband, and they also have three kids under the age of 5! So, while they love and support me emotionally, I was always the one (with H's help and blessing, of course) who helped support them financially when they got in a tight spot.

I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I've talked to a friend who suggested actually going in to talk to the judge to ask for her advice on what to do. I may just try it! Even if she has to recuse herself from the case and send it to another judge, I couldn't be any worse off than I am now. And she at least might be able to advise me on how and where to get a lawyer, or how much time I will have to get one.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I did have a nice Mother's Day weekend. MIL and FIL helped out so I could spend a little alone time with each kid on Fri. night or Saturday, then kids and I had friends over for dinner Sat. evening, then kids and I went to church and then to IL's house for lunch on Sunday. And H is not taking the kids this coming weekend even though I offered to trade with him (I am pretty sure OW threw a fit when he told her about trading weekends, because it is Bimbo Family Graduation Weekend--bimbo's OLDER sister is graduating from college---yep, it's that disgusting), so the kids and I will plan some fun things for this weekend, too.

Even though H is entitled to have the kids for all of Father's Day weekend, he told me he will pick them up at 9am on Father's Day and bring them back at 6pm. Wow. The OW really does lead him around by his hoo-hoo.

So, so, sad......to see a once wonderful husband and father reduced to this. And no, I do not blame OW. But neither is she blameless. She is one of the lowest of the low points in this whole mess.

[forward]

TPaschal,
Put a lock on your bedroom door. I lock my bedroom when H is here. it is worth it and it will enforce your boundaries.

H still takes things from house but there isn't much left that he would want.

[angelica]

You do have a mean MLCer - so was my h, and I empathize. Now he is showing small signs of realising that this behaviour is not OK. Intermittent, but, for example he admitted to his middle son a while back that he had not been a very good father for some time. Wow!

As for the OW - of course it takes two, but the OP has usurped the spouse's role in the family - with the co-operation of the spouse. But that is what they: are a usurper, and they know it.

I am not saying we own our spouse's of course, but in relationships we have rights, roles and responsibilities, to ourelves, to each other, to the wider family, and to the community.

To abrogate those [our spouse] and to usurp them [OP] is not acceptable. They know it deep down, and that is why your h is trampling over ALL boundaries. Partly it is control, and partly it is a refusal to see ANY boudnaries, because then he might have to see SOME, and they might not be the ones he chooses.

On a more general point, I have a feeling that they more p*ssy they are with us whey the r with OP is going less well [although they would deny this]. Looking back with my h I can see a pattern there - does anyone else have this experience?

A

[lise]

Hi all,

I have just been trying to catch up on threads here in this topic. I am new to figuring out that my H has been in MLC. I kept thinking he would snap out of his insantiy, but now I realize it will probably take years and I am starting to worry about protecting myself and our sons during this time.

You guys are talking about lawyers. How do you find a good one? I have been afraid to get a L because I didn't want to make H more angry. He wants to D "amicably" and go in together to file the papers without L. I said why would I do that when I don't even want a D? He accuses me of wanting to make things ugly. He's the one who started this! He says he wants to save the money, but I know what he thinks is reasonable in an agreement will not be what I think is fair - not that any of this is fair, but you know what I mean. My sister is a lawyer in another state and has told me I will get much more from a court decision than he is offering me. I don't talk to her very often because I am afraid of where she wants me to go with this. How do you balance staying friendly but not getting taken advantage of?

[Stillnlove]

Tpascahl:

But in other ways he seems VERY detached. Otherwise, how could a father go three solid weeks without speaking to or laying eyes on his three children who only live 10 minutes away?

We do not know his emotional context, but avoiding the children and you may be perfectly sensible within his emotional context.
Perhaps he fears what he would do in their presence.
Perhaps it hurts him more than he can bear when he sees them.
Perhaps he is simply so ashamed that he cannot bring himself to face them.
You don't know. But none of those possibilities have anything to do with being Detached, rather they are completely bound.

Can you explain what you mean by "bound?"

Your MLCers emotions are tied to the family--you and the children. Detached, he wouldn't feel contempt. He may feel pained that you and others are experiencing pain, but detached, he would not Re-Act to such things with angry outbursts.
Here is an explanation.

H also told Guy he felt controlled by me
...
She does seem to be calling all the shots now.

Good. OW's are fearful and thus controlling. Wouldn't you be if you were dating a man who is a proven cheater?
In MLC many seem to 'need' to be controlled. I don't really mean that they need it, but perhaps they do need to learn it is not what they want by experiencing it--since they seek it. But he must learn on his own, experientially. It is not the LBS's job to teach him how wrong he is and how great she is; he may not be wrong and she may not be great. A Stander can help by showing herself to be accepting rather than controlling, and by being this way whether he is present to notice or seems to notice or care.

I said, "... Is this what you want for YOUR daughter? ...Is this what you want for her in 7 years? To drop out of college and answer telephones for a living, and then start an affair with a 20 year older married man? To start screwing him while he's still living and sleeping with his wife, and then move in with him when he finally does leave his wife and 3 kids, even though he's still married? ...What would you say to her if she did that? I can't imagine being "okay" with it if our daughter did that. I can't imagine you being okay with it. I can't imagine any parent wanting this life for their 21 year old daughter." He was very, very quiet. Didn't say anything at all.

But I don't know what to think anymore.

I don't think what you did was a bad thing. I cannot say whether it was beneficial or detrimental because sometimes it is one and sometimes the other. Sometimes it is needed. He may need to hear it or the LBS needs to express it to the MLCer--rather than venting silently to herself, here online, to supportive persona friends...

Maybe she really is just the most wonderful, loving, giving person in the world who just had the misfortune to fall in love with the wrong man. I don't really believe that, but what if it's true?

Love doesn't act how she is acting. Love doesn't control and Love doesn't destroy. She's a scared and damaged little girl, stunted developmentally from her own Father's mistakes.

It seems that H is completely under her spell, and she is completely in control now, to the point of moving her father in with them (for a time, at least.) I wonder how the man I loved could be acting like this, or involved with anyone who would act this way, no matter how "nice" she is, and it doesn't compute.

That is your clue: It doesn't compute. The man you married, the man you knew is buried. During MLC, the Monster Reigns.
It is not her spell that he is under, this gives her too much power. If it were not her, it would be someone else. MLC is the cause of the crisis; the OW is an irrelevant item to be used and discarded--and that is sad.

I know Cinderellaman and Mrs. H have been struggling with this recently---what if H really is happier with OW, and will go on to have a happy, complete, and full life with OW? If it's true, then shouldn't we forget about DB'ing and Standing, and start exploring other options for ourselves? And I don't just mean dating, but that is a large part of it. Not jumping into a relationship that I'm not ready for, but making the mental adjustment in my head that H will never be my partner again, so it's okay to start thinking about someone else in that eventual role.

Forget shoulds, there are too many opposing shoulds to make it worth your while. Shouldn't he have not cheated, shouldn't you be living happily together, shouldn't your children have two parents who love each other and remain married?
What do you want?
You stated that you do not really believe that the OW is the most wonderful, loving, giving person in the world. But then do you believe that your husband is happier...Oh, wait you said you didn't believe that either.

I guess detachment is the wrong word. I guess "emotionally unavailable" is more what I meant. Or "emotionally dead." He claims to be happy with OW and his happy new life, but he doesn't seem happy at all. When he is around me and kids, he seems so.....distant. Like we're furniture or household fixtures or part of the scenery, not actual human beings with feelings.

That is, until he gets angry! Then he yells and spews and threatens and uses the kids to manipulate me while accusing me of turning the kids against him, etc., etc., etc.

He doesn't seem happy.
What do you want? If you want your marriage, if you believe in what it can become, then Stand. If you want your marriage and are not certain, then Pray. But many (probably most) are uncertain or completely doubtful at this stage.
Standing doesn't mean you avoid divorce. It doesn't mean that you Wait or even that you Stand forever. It means you believe in marriage and in your marriage, that you love your spouse and are choosing to Stand through the for worse mentioned in your vows. It can mean different things to different people.

I'm at a loss, too. Wondering if we'll ever "synch up" again. I'm trying to "grow forward" and change for the better, and he's regressing into a selfish adolescent who sometimes throw temper tantrums like a toddler.

That is what an MLC is--Regression.
If you are going to Stand AND survive, you will need to accept the process of MLC. That means accepting that there is a good possibility you will divorce—it need not be permanent. Accept that it will not be over once a divorce is final--look at Laughing's threads. Accept that he may continue to get worse LONG before the slightest shadow of better. LONG could be years.
Accept that you are a single parent and at this time, the only responsible and mature parent. You need to find employment and protect your children from the MLC Monster. How are you going to do that while also promoting a relationship with their Father?

Figuring out how to Pave a Safe Way but not giving up or giving in on things that will be REALLY important for my and the kids' future if he chooses to never return is very tough.

For instance, H wants the house on the market...right now...today...IMMEDIATELY! That's great, but what's the plan for me and the kids once it does sell? What if it were to sell really quickly? Where would we live? Who gets the profits from the sale and how much? Will H help buy me a house, as I have no income and will not qualify for ANYTHING right now? Will this be done before the final divorce? If not, how can I have it put in the divorce decree? Etc., etc. All of this p*sses him off to no end. He sees it as me trying to drag things out, and uses it to fuel his anger against me, while I see these questions and concerns as being practical and reasonable things to settle NOW in order to take care of me and the kids.

It is natural that he will interpret your actions as an attempt to drag out the process. He is angry he projects this emotion onto you.
But what happens if or when you sell the house? Can you purchase something cheaper and have additional funds? MLCers sign legal documents agreeing to certain things; this doesn't mean they adhere to them and you've got a nasty one. You cannot count on him to do anything positive or negative.
Paving a Safe Way is about kindness. It is something we should do with all people; it's about Grace and it is not exclusive to Standers.

As for H, he is back to anger stage. If I don't give in to his every request, he spews.

That is not the Anger STAGE, its just Anger. The Anger Stage of MLC is about MLC. He is simply Angry.

Can you explain what you mean by this? What's the difference? I have read the Six Stages of MLC posted (I think) by HeartsBlessing, but I haven't read it in a while. I know my H is in Replay right now, but why is he so angry at me all the time? Just for standing in the way of what he thinks he wants right now?

Yes, because he sees you as blocking him, but there are many reasons. He is Angry at himself for doing this to you and he projects that at you so as to alleviate his guilt and shame. He fears being 'found out' for the bad guy he is and thus must project it onto you.
The Stage of Anger is about where he is in life versus where he wants to be and where he thought he would or should be. IT is about his feelings of failure and inadequacy being realized. He fears aging and feels that time is running out. He feels stuck, perhaps trapped by a wife and young children, or a job, or a dead end job. He may be overwhelmed by his responsibilities. Panic sets in--fight or flight.
But to shirk responsibilities is to feel guilt and shame. To avoid those consequences the MLCer looks for an external source of blame.
In Replay this may become easier because the LBS is often opposing them. It doesn't matter that her opposition may be better for her, the children and even the MLCer. She is opposing him, she is trying to control him. And MLCers run from spousal control toward an OW who in the beginning listens to his problems and seem to reassure.
This is how it starts. OW's may not seem controlling initially. Why should she in the beginning when she is his confidant? Her control comes through later when the MLCer waivers or the LBS shows she will Stand and continue to be decent--that she will be competition.
Now the MLCer becomes Angry at both. But he left for the OW. Some want to 'save face' and refuse to consider they have been making a mistake. Replay is a stage of Anger. Replay is Covert Depression. Classical Depression is Anger turned Inward. The person in Covert Depression is fighting to avoid Classical Depression, this bottling up releases as Anger.

Logical stuff, so I'm sure he didn't process any of it.

Processing takes time. He may be processing right now and you may not see the results for a few years. Or it may be filed away for later processing.

I told him that I would be happy to have a calm, rational conversation with him about these matters, but if he continued screaming at me, I would hang up. And when he went off on his spew about the divorce and the lawyer, etc., I just kept repeating, "Is this what's best for the kids?" "Is this what's best for the kids?" Finally I just said, "Okay, it's obvious you're too angry to have a calm conversation right now, so I'll talk to you later. Bye!"

You told him if he could not hold a rational conversation, you would hang up. But it seems you stayed on the line while he spewed. You hung up eventually, but you did not stick to the firmness of your boundary.

He told [MIL] he would get his lawyer to get a restraining order so that she and FIL couldn't see the kids anymore, and she told him to go for it---to just try it---that she would love to have her day in court to tell a judge what's really been going on. She told him that if D5 comes back with bloody cracked feet ever again, that THEY would be the ones going after him.

I like your MIL. I know her behaviour concerns you, but he needs to have his possible bluff called. If he follows through, it will be an interesting learning experience for him. What does it say about him that his own parents are testifying against him in court?

What do the courts say regarding age of a child and visitation choices? If given the choice, would your daughter choose to visit him or not. Can she be given the choice (legally) and should she be given the choice?
She might choose to go simply to protect her siblings.
Forget the cheating and spewing for a moment and consider his parenting behaviours. Is he being abusive—physically OR emotionally/mentally? I'm sorry you are going through this. Your children are going to go through difficulty no matter what. Would they be better off if he were not allowed unsupervised visitation?
He might not be better. He might be pi$$ed off. But this is about them. And being pi$$ed is not always a bad thing.
I don't have kids yet and thus I'm just asking questions; I have no answers.

Anyone here know anything about lawyering? What happens if L does withdraw? I have NO money to hire a new lawyer right now. I

I don't know a thing about it. My only advice is to get a new lawyer. I know you don't have the money, and I don't know how to answer in light of that. Can your in-laws help? But your lawyer is not acting in the best interests of your goals. Some lawyers offer a free initial consultation.

How do I handle his questions about the lawyer? I don't want to give too much info, but don't want him to accuse me of using this as a stalling tactic.

By telling him that it's none of his business, or doing as you have been and ignoring. Some things you don't have to answer.

Anyone else see a silver lining anywhere?

I see them everywhere. That's because I make my own. Find silver paint or a silver crayon and draw your own silver lining.

My H also just walks into the house as he pleases. I wanted him to feel comfortable here at home hanging out with the kids, to make this still a warm and welcoming place for him, but I have made a couple of boundaries---asking him to not come in my bedroom, and to not take any more stuff out of the house in front of the kids. He crosses both of those boundaries continually, and when I asked him the other day to leave my bedroom, he absolutely would not. I got frustrated, so I know it made him feel like he "won."
I should have just walked away, but I'm so, so tired of being disrespected. ...[I] told him that I did not appreciate him ignoring my boundaries. I was calm, but told him that he had disrespected me in just about every way that a man could disrespect a woman, and I didn't think it was too much to ask for him to stay out of my bedroom. He just pooh-poohed it and said I was being childish and immature.

What can you do to maintain the boundaries. Have you changed the house locks? Are you legally allowed to change the locks? If not, how can you become legally allowed to change them. You are right that he is feeling like he is winning regarding boundaries. You set them, but are unable to maintain them. Is that because the boundaries you set are not realistic, because you have caved, or because you have not determined how to enforce them?
They seem realistic to me.
As for him calling you childish and immature... can you see that as an obvious projection?

Well, L quit yesterday.

Things have now escalated. So what do you or can you do to get another lawyer when you do not have the finances?
I don't have an answer to that. But what about the lawyers on the board…any ideas? What about those posters who have learned to deal with the legal system. The filing in my case was brief and dropped so quickly that I don't have the experience.

But MrsH or Laughing...any ideas? Is Baseball Annie around? It might not be her area of law...but she may have some input.

Me, I just want to get mad and find another lawyer to sue the lawyer who is dropping you! Yeah, that's effective--especially when you are lacking in finances, and he's probably allowed to drop you, so what he's doing may not be 'right' but may also not be wrong.

Are there helpful services for women in your situation? Does being a Physician's wife disqualify you due to income? Look into aid services.

Isn't your degree in education? What do you need to do to find a teaching job? Do you need to be certified? Do you need to take any classes? You need funds now, but you will also need them long-term. If you are able to find employment as a teacher, you can have summers off with your kids.
For now, what can you do that is in this same area?
Can you find employment as a tutor--Sylvan Learning Centers or that sort of thing.
What about Summer School teaching? Where I come from we had a large migrant population that was in a special school program during the summer months.

I am so sorry that you are feeling depressed and anxious.
It is normal, but being happy and relaxed are healthy, so let's make that a goal.

Your lawyer seemed very expensive to me, but then maybe it differs regionally or there is simply a large difference in fees. I paid my lawyer a $1500.00 retainer. The case was stopped without going over that amount. I rejected a lawyer who charged more, but I rejected him before seeing his fee. A friend's MLCer paid his lawyer $5000.00 about five years ago. We are in the same state and only about 30 miles apart, so that's quite a cost difference.

I'm sorry you are going through this and sorry that he is being so nasty. You've got to take care of yourself and your children. In the future, when he comes out of this crisis, whether he returns or not, he will look at you with greater respect than if you fall apart. He will be more likely to want to return if you find and use your strength to care for and protect yourself and the kids. The difficult part is that he will not show that in the present.
The monster interprets all actions only from a Selfish view and will explain all of your behaviours as vindictive, retaliatory, selfish... It is your job to be consistent and do what you feel is best and right regardless of how he explains your behaviour.
Do this by starting with your Self. Find your confidence, and belief in your own power to love your Self, your children AND your husband.