Letter from WAW after she flew to my city for talk

[GavinO]

GH31,

How it going? have there been any developments or contact from the WAW? and how are you doing?

Would be good to hear from you


All the best

Gavin

[GH31]

It's been a while since I have posted on here but some things have happened in my situation.

My wife came to visit me again at lunchtime on Thursday and ended up staying until Saturday night when she flew back to the UK. She has brought around the majority of her belongings and says that she intends to reconcile with me and that I belong in her family. She has called all of the stuff she has brought back her "downpayment" and said that she will bring everything else back at next weekend "at the latest". I asked her what made her arrive at her decision and she said that it began to dawn on her that the longer she left it, the harder the situation would be to retrieve. Essentially, she has been having doubts about leaving me since I discovered the OM, a month after she left. She asked me a while back if I had dated anyone else and I was honest with her (yes) and she realised that time was no longer on her side.

We did a lot of fun things - go out and about, play pool, got a few other things done etc and we drifted into a lot of OR talk. I am quite sure that too much OR is bad but I seem to really struggle avoiding it. I never bring it up but I'm thinking that it might be best to let it go as soon as I can when it does come up.

We slept in the same bed both nights - some cuddling and caressing but no ML. I actually think it will take some time for us to get to that stage if at all. No ILYs yet from her and I think they will be a long time coming also. She says we should go on a holiday to rebuild the connection and she finally acknowledged that it will take some time to get over all of this. I asked her if the she had ended the R with OM and she said "no not yet - not completely". This is tough - I know she thinks the world of him and has said he's a "very good person" and "all the things that you really struggle with come naturally to him" - I validated her but I must admit it is so hard to hear. She is very concerned about "letting him down" as he has "done everything right". Of course - it's a new relationship and it's only 5 weeks old for heaven's sake.

I mentioned to her that I only wanted to know 2 things: 1. do you intend to have any contact at all with him once it's over and 2. when did it all start? She said that there would be no need to have any contact afterwards even though she cares about him and hopes he's well and that it started a few days after the separation. I know that I am going to have a tremendously hard time coming to terms with trusting her again. I take full responsibility for causing the breakup but this rebuilding of trust is going to take some work for sure.

I have done my best to be a friend to her, validated her grievances, done nice things for her and I think this DBing has worked so far. I repeated that the separation was the right thing to do and that nothing else could have been a good enough circuit breaker. I know she is scared about my old ugly self (anger, violent temper, meanness, lack of generosityand kindness) coming back and it really muted and dampened our interactions with each other. I really do sense that she is struggling.

On the inside it feels wonderful that things have moved in this direction but on the other I feel totally overwhelmed with resentment, sadness, anger and murderous (literally) thoughts towards OM. I am ashamed to admit it but I think about running him over slowly with a steamroller - feet first, or pouring petrol over him and setting him on fire. I hate to admit to having these thoughts but God knows I have them and so should you all. I don't know how to deal with them and getting them out somehow makes eases the burden. I know that forgiveness is my issue and mine alone - noone else can do that for me, and believe me I want to forgive and get over this.

On balance I am very happy about the direction that things are moving in. I must look to the future and not dwell on the past. It will be very hard to do but that is not an excuse to avoid the work. It will be a long time before I am even out of the woods and all things being equal, I would expect to be "piecing" for at least 2 years. Day by day...

[GH31]

Hi guys,

I have a question for experienced DBers. When my wife came to visit me at the end of last week, she asked me "how has the separation been for you?". Since we were in a public place (a hair salon) I answered that it's best we don't discuss it here but it's a conversation that we can have in the months to come. In truth, I had to fight back tears.

I would like to know if it's worth me telling her how it has been. In truth, it has been the most searing, traumatizing event in my entire life and has affected me profoundly. Should I be telling her this?

She is making a lot of overtures about reconciliation i.e. asking me to plan a trip for the two of us, talking about future plans with her dad, giving me forms for taking her surname into mine, and moving lots of her stuff back into our apartment. All of this is great but I get the impression that if she comes back when she said she would (the weekend), she will want to quickly move on as if nothing has happened whilst I am here absolutely traumatized and shell-shocked.

The other concern of mine is continued contact with OM. True reconciliation cannot begin whilst OM is still in the picture I'm sure - although she has said that there'll be "no need" to continue contact with him, I am aware of just how difficult it will be for her not to.

Not sure what to do here, but I am nevertheless encouraged by the direction things seem to be moving in.

Would be very grateful for any input by experienced DBers.

GH31

[saffie]

Personally I think you should tell her how you feel but do so in a non threatening, non judgmental way.

She needs you to be honest with her but she does not need to be accused. You need to keep channels of communication open and make her feel able to talk to you.

If you look at my signature line you will see how long I have been at this. I have learnt that the changes we make in order to be better people and keep the M alive are permanent changes. Whatever you do don't stop DBing-it's a life skill. That doesn't mean don't talk etc, but it does mean keep an eye on things and do 180's if you need to. Communicate effectively. Be the best you can be.

I think the phase you are about to move onto can be very hard; one spends so long just wanting another chance -and then if you are lucky you get it. However the rush of emotions can be overwhelming. Just when you imagined life would be all romance etc you get these strong feelings of resentment, hate for the OP etc coming to the front. Or you can be having a very good day and suddenly you will be side swiped by a painful memory or a hurtful thought. Anniversaries of dates when things happened will be so painful....and because you have your spouse back you think you shouldn't be feeling these things. Well all those feelings are normal.

I am lucky in that my H supports me through these times if I can explain to him in a non judgemental way what is going on. Sometimes I fail miserably and get quite accusing - which doesn't go down well as he gets defensive as he feels guilty - but other than that he really helps me through. We try to replace the bad memories with new, good ones.

It took around a year post reconciliation before my H acknowledged completely out of the blue that the OW, was a skank. I tried for a long time to forgive the OW but it twisted me up. I felt so bad that I HATED her; I was brought up never to HATE anyone. In the end, the only way I could move on was to just acknowledge to myself that I didn't have to forgive her; I don't think I ever will. Since I decided that her significance has diminished.

Good luck to you.

[GH31]

Hi Saffie,

Thanks very much for your kind words of encouragement. I am under no illusion that a reconciliation, especially the beginning would be very very tough. I still don't consider myself to have that chance yet and won't do until she makes good on her pledge to move the rest of her stuff back in.

The biggest problem for me will be trusting whether W has truly let OM go or not. Geography would keep them physically apart but I am also (dare I say it) terrified that she'll just go again. That fear may be healthy, but it certainly wouldn't be healthy to have it overwhelming me.

Can I ask you saffie, did you and your H separate or did you live together whilst the A was in full progress? Also, did your H require a few months to mentally let go of OW? I would expect letting go of OP to take some time. I took me well over a month to let go of caffeine when I quit and I imagine an OP would take far longer.

You have been at this a long time and I sincerely admire your strength. I hope that all the hard effort has been worth it for you.

best,

GH31

[Just_Me]

GH31,

I want to give you advice, but am struggling with what to say. It's good that she wants to try, but I can't get a sense whether she really does want to. It sounds so calculating...like a business decision. And it's occurring without any input at all from you. Did she say, "are you interested in having me back?", or has she pretty much said that she's coming back?

I understand that the logistics of her move pretty much necessitate her actually moving in, rather than taking things more slowly. That's okay. It's something to be worked through.

What's not okay is for her to assume that things can just go back to what they were. For one, it seems a little hard to believe that she moved out then started a relationship two days later. Why did she pick so far away? What are the odds you'd move that far away and then start some relationship within 2 days? Even if she isn't lying about that, there will still be trust issues. At first you'll be relieved she's back and you can try, but believe me, you will wonder whether she's talking to OM (who likely won't just fade into the woodwork on his own) and even if she is not, you'll wonder when she picks up and leaves again.

As far as talking about things....now isn't the time to avoid relationship talks. You need to be able to listen to what she needs out of the relationship, but you also need to be able to express that you will have trust issues and that it will take you time to truly feel comfortable and safe in the relationship. You might also indicate that your vision of the future includes two people working to make the best possible marriage, but she's on probation and doesn't get a free pass to talk to OM or otherwise walk all over you. You don't have to put it harshly, but you definitely can express any reservations you have.

I would indicate to her that you missed her, you realized how important she is in your life, and that you would much prefer to spend the rest of your life with her. But I wouldn't get into any kind of desperate and weak stuff, like you were miserable and crushed. I would indicate that while you prefer her, you do know that life goes on, and it's too short to spend being insecure.

Me

P.S. I remember that the issue of having babies came up before. It possibly will again. If you don't express your issues with trusting her, it will be hard to explain why you don't feel comfortable adding a new life into a shaky marriage.

P.P.S. It is okay to have boundaries and stand tall. How interested in life with you could she be if the moment you show a backbone she starts doubting the marriage. You need to be able to feel that she's committed also, or you're just wasting your time.

[saffie]

GH,

My H and I didn't separate. I also didn't know about the A until the last week. It went on for 18 months. I new things weren't ok in my M but not why. I had made some major changes to myself and this led to my H coming to me and telling me about his A.

I don't know whether or not he was ready to end the A anyways - he had to think things through - I just don't know for sure. A's quite often finish between 12-18 months and I know the OW was pressurising my H - who knows?

In order for the reconciliation to work though, there had to be absolutely no OW contact, and we both had to be 100% transparent. My H read a couple of articles I gave him on healing from infidelity and they explained to him how I would be feeling. They were well written and made him realise the importance of being honest and open. It made him realise that it was better not to hide things just because he knew that telling me them would hurt me - he understood my need to know everything, however painful. They also told me how he would be feeling and it helped me cope with issues arising from that.

Personally I don't believe that getting back together is the time to hold back. Diplomacy is essential but so is honesty.

I read earlier in your thread that your W is going to be on a business trip with OM sometime in the next few weeks. Can she not do that? It would bother me. Any contact with OM doesn't seem right. I agree with the poster above who said that it seems a bit strange that she got together just a couple of days after separation - I bet it was leading up to happening before. Honesty and openess in communications are huge factors - how can one rebuild trust without them? I couldn't have done.

Each couple has different ways of interacting. The written word is one of the easier ways for my H and I. That was why giving him articles to read on what the LBS feels like worked well for us. I even got him to read the infidelity section in DB.

Hang in there.

[GH31]

Hi Saffie & Just_Me,

First and foremost I very much appreciate both of your responses. Saffie, the business trip to France has been and gone together with at least one other trip that I know of.

She did ask me a while ago if I wanted to get back together and I said "it is an outcome that I would like to reach" and "I didn't want to get married only to become a statistic 3 years later".

I am very cautious now and fully aware that I could be being set up. She maintains that it started subsequent to the separation but that they knew each other beforehand - I did notice that she was acting out of character a few weeks before this happened and on our anniversary evening she wanted to go to their farewell party, something that is very out of character for her. Then, a few days later she was gone. I do know that she was very unhappy with me in January as I had been losing my temper a lot and getting verbally nasty. My primary Love Language is Quality Time along with Words of Affirmation (bilingual) and I had been getting none. In my utter stupidity I decided to get really angry rather than try and reconnect with tenderness. This I am certain caused her to withdraw from the marriage and made her very vulnerable to an A. The reason she ended up going to the UK was that OM and some colleagues were working here in Germany at the same place as her, then they all went back to the UK and she went with them. 5 days later she spent 3 weeks in Australia before going back to the UK; earlier in the thread I describe how I went to meet her at the airport as a surprise and OM was there to pick her up.

Her decision to come back could also be financially motivated as she has not been working in the UK, rather living off her credit card. I work and she knows that I would financially support her but wouldn't pay off her credit card debt - that boundary I have already laid out. She has said that "she doesn't belong in England" and whilst she has looked for jobs there, has had the "gut feeling" that it wasn't something she should be doing. She is very close to her dad but hasn't had any contact with him for 6 weeks and her cousin lives very close to where she is in the UK, but she hasn't seen her either. She said she "doesn't want to have to answer questions about you and about our marriage".

Guys if you could advise me here or give me an idea of what really is going on, I would be extremely grateful. My DB coach said that when people are in the throes of an A their brain chemistry can be altered and make them exhibit "rebellious teen" type beahviour. Who knows? The DB coach has recommended getting her to read the DR chapter on infidelity so that she knows what to expect although I doubt she will acknowledge it as such since it "happened" after the separation. I will rephrase it as "other relationships".

Today we have been emailing each other constantly and she wants me to plan a trip for us both to go to Russia. She has also suggested a holiday for us both elsewhere to give us the chance to reconnect. Also, she put a deposit down for some new specs with an optometrist here and they will be ready next week.

She says it's "dangerous that we have been spending so much time apart" and that "the longer she leaves it, the harder it will be to retrieve".

I am actually mentally prepared to move on without her if necessary although I would much prefer to be with her. I have been working my butt off to change and feel successful in doing so, and these changes will be maintained no matter what the outcome. Basically, a second chance will be wonderful if it is genuine.

Experienced DBers, again your input would be much appreciated.

thanks,

GH31

[Just_Me]

I am actually mentally prepared to move on without her if necessary although I would much prefer to be with her. I have been working my butt off to change and feel successful in doing so, and these changes will be maintained no matter what the outcome. Basically, a second chance will be wonderful if it is genuine.

GH,

For the record, I wasn't saying don't take her back and I wasn't saying set conditions for her return, necessarily. I was saying that if she really wants to be with you, that you help her realize what obstacles that you will have to face as a couple, and that includes issues with trust.

If you know you'll be alright without her, then you have nothing to lose by taking her back in and giving this your best shot. The worst that can happen is she'll leave again, but that's not worse than never coming back (is it?). Or I suppose you could discover that she's still contacting OM, at which point you can decide whether you'll work through it, or ask her to go. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained....so give it your best shot.

Some time together would be nice, but make sure she isn't just using you for fun. It sounds like all she wants to do is vacation. Does she have an inclination to work in between? She might have a little growing up to do yet.

[saffie]

Having gone over your thread my best guess, (and remember it is all a guess because the only person who knows possibly what she feels is your W herself), is that she hasn't found happiness with OM and she became jealous at the thought of you seeing other people.

It's one thing to go off with another person yourself, but for the S you left behind to move on is another thing entirely!!! I would think that made her stop in her tracks a bit and reassess the situation. She sounds as though she was expecting to still find you waiting if things didn't work out with her and the OM, and then she realised that was a luxury that was going to disappear.

All the things you said do indicate that she is moving back into the R. I would take it all at face value. Be honest in your communications. Tell her that she needs to be honest too and comunicate how she feels - she must tell you if things aren't making her happy too. Remember you need a fresh partnership where you both feel comfortable; don't fall back into old habits. You have no reason to hide anything. However, especially with your history of anger, be careful not to be accusing when discussing things with her. Do you think you can do that? If you give her things to read to prepare her regarding your feelings you can always explain to her that although she may feel that it was not an A because you had separated, in your mind it feels different, and you just wanted her to understand where YOU are coming from.

Would you be willing to go to some sort of C together? My H and I considered it but when we got to a certain point my therapist said he thought that it might be more harmful than helpful. He felt that my H and I had cleared up most of the issues that hah led to the A and that too much C might end up harming more than helping. I have continued to see my therapist, (for cognitive behavioural therapy), as it continues to help me look at myself and moderate my behaviour and the dynamics in the M, ( I have a habit of withdrawing emotionally from the R when I feel stressed).

It all sounds as though it is moving in the right direction.