Stu - I am in a similar situation. At first I was so angry at my wife for pulling away from that we could not talk without it escalating into an argument. I finally learned (slower learner that I am sometimes) that I was not going to be able to restore our closeness by yelling at her and pointing out all of her flaws. So I just completely backed off and agreed with whatever she said and did. This helped becuase she showed at least some interest in me and the marriage again. The problem with this, however, is that it will drive you nuts because you are really not in the relationship any more and your resentment at being shut out will build. I have recently begun initiating dicussions about our relationship. My wife clearly does not like these but she will participate at some level so long as I remain calm, stick to discussing my feelings and acknowlege her feelings when she decides to share them. My challenge is that I want to do this often and with intensity because, like most men, I like to fix things and it drives me crazy to just stand by and wait for things to fix themselves. But you have to be patient and pace yourself. I try to have no more than one relationship conversation a week and always try to refrain from the expression of anger, from judgment and from seeking to control. It's not easy but I think it is the only way as far as I have been able to discover this far.
Do NOT try to fix things. Women don't want fix it advice, they want to be known, they want to have you listen, but DON'T offer advice.
Stop the relationship talks, makes you sound desparate. If you were just starting to date her, what would you do? WOuld you get into deep relationship talks, or would you try to earn her desire by being attractive?
After two years of silent treatment, including her sitting in marrige counseling sessions (a) saying that she finds it very difficult to be there and (b) not responding (as in total silence) in response to most questions from the therapist including (1) W, are you finished with this relationship or would you like to work on it? and (2) W, what do you want, if anything, out of this relationship at this point? So if my W wants to be known and wants to have me listen, this seems like a pretty strange way for her to go about getting that.
Are you familiar with the concept of avoider/pursuer? If not, you need to understand how that dynamic works and why. It is a FOO issue and it comes from some form of childhood abandonment/abuse. By that I do not necessarily mean your spouse was literally abandoned or beat, but that she did not get her needs met in the way that she needed at that time. It might be that she got more attention than any of her siblings, but if something was missing that left and emptiness in her, then she would have started to create defenses to protect against that.
You two are both the pursuer, like I. My wife is the avoider. She was overwhelmed and engulfed with abandonment issues as a child and the only way she could relieve the stress was to pull away. It is a fear reaction. I am the pursuer because I had to walk on eggshells with my parent’s fighting. I fear losing a relationship so I pursue. We make for the perfect match, as far as our issues are concerned. Both of us have come a long way in recognizing and breaking this cycle. I no longer pursue as I did, though I still get angry at times. She has learned to not avoid and to talk about things, even though she may need a cooling off period first, and even if she does not feel like talking.
So you can see that you both probably have abandonment issues that cause you both to pursue, and that feels like engulfment to your wife, so she pulls further back, you pursue harder, and the cycle gets more intense. You contribute 50% to this dynamic.
What your wife really wants, like mine does, is to be held and comforted. But if like my wife, she did not have that modeled for her and does not know how to accept such intimacy. It is too scary. She is stuck in limbo, and while not happy, she is at least safe. Your counselor is asking the right question as to whether she is through with the relationship. That will cause her to have to face what it is that she wants, rather than what she does not want. But beware that if her fears issues are intense enough, it will seem safer to her to end the marriage rather than face her fears.
The key IMO is to give her loads of empathy and focus directly on her core fears (which means you need to identify what those fears are). She will avoid, deny, deflect, get angry, do anything and everything she can to avoid the topic and turn the focus and the blame back on you. So to disarm this, you deal with your issues openly, in depth, and in front of her. By you going first, she will see your vulnerability, develop some compassion for your fears, and take away any excuses not to work on herself.
This book by Steven Stosny, “You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore” uses this compassion approach as its core theory. It think he has the right isea on how to deal with marriages. For more severe cases and to further increase your understanding, read “Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy with Trauma Survivors: Strengthening Attachment Bonds” by Susan M. Johnson.
“Facing Love Addiction : Giving Yourself the Power to Change the Way You Love” by Pia Mellody and Andrea Wells Miller as well as “Addiction to Love: Overcoming Obsession and Dependency in Relationships” by Susan Peabody will help you see the catch 22 cycle you are stuck in. I think these later two books are good for your wife to read as well.
To finally slay the demons, you will need to face some of your FOO issues, and “The Narcissistic Family : Diagnosis and Treatment” by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman, Robert M. Pressman do a good just of explaining where all this comes from, why it is so destructive and what different type of abuse and abandonment actually look like. They are not necessarily what you think.
"So you can see that you both probably have abandonment issues that cause you both to pursue, and that feels like engulfment to your wife, so she pulls further back, you pursue harder, and the cycle gets more intense. You contribute 50% to this dynamic.
What your wife really wants, like mine does, is to be held and comforted. But if like my wife, she did not have that modeled for her and does not know how to accept such intimacy. It is too scary. She is stuck in limbo, and while not happy, she is at least safe. Your counselor is asking the right question as to whether she is through with the relationship. That will cause her to have to face what it is that she wants, rather than what she does not want. But beware that if her fears issues are intense enough, it will seem safer to her to end the marriage rather than face her fears.
The key IMO is to give her loads of empathy and focus directly on her core fears (which means you need to identify what those fears are). She will avoid, deny, deflect, get angry, do anything and everything she can to avoid the topic and turn the focus and the blame back on you. So to disarm this, you deal with your issues openly, in depth, and in front of her. By you going first, she will see your vulnerability, develop some compassion for your fears, and take away any excuses not to work on herself."
Nope. Dude, if trying to reestablish a sex life is unhealthy pursuit, then all of us need to be at the courthouse with the attorney. I do so much holding and conforting it's unreal, that's not it. Finally, been married once and the sex life was great, it's not me. My ex and my wife have very different personalities with regards to intimacy, this is probably the root cause. I use sex to relieve stress, to bond, and to relax. Wife uses sex to relieve the pesky bimonthly pelvic congestion. I am not being facetious here, it is really this way. Has been for 15 years, although the congestion occurred more often so it was not a big issue.
I am new at this so any of my opinions are just that, my opinions.
I tend to withdraw from my W in R discussions because they frequently become dumps on me. I will listen for a while to try to hear what nugget of truth might be in the dumps, but eventually I need to walk away from the conversation because the yelling, judging, or criticism is destructive to me. It is actually a technique that has been taught to me by my counselor, a couple of marriage counselors, and my 12 step group.
I am not saying that your discussions with your W match how my W approaches me. But I know that I have now been 'hypersensitized' to verbal/emotional abuse. As a result, my current level of tolerance is very low. I am a recovering codependent and the following is a real good synopsis (from Steve Frisch) of how a codependent responds over time.
1 - Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people. 2 - Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do. 3 - Let others hurt them. 4 - Keep letting others hurt them. 5 - Wonder why they hurt so badly. 6 - Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there. 7 - Finally get angry. 8 - Become totally intolerant
For me, I hit stage 8 and am now in a recovery program. I am trying to learn what is healthy to tolerate and what is unhealthy. I don't know how this might apply to your R. But it is why I tend to avoid R discussions with my W unless there is a third party. Since we are no longer in counselling, I need to learn how to properly set boundaries and not walls. It is a difficult job.
H - 47 W - 44 M - 18+ years Separated? - 4/07 S - 13 S - 15
