Further Adventures of Sock Monkey Girl

[MJontheMend]

I've been in a relationship for almost a decade but I still remember what it's like to be single, and I have tons of single friends. Cobra may believe what he wishes but times ARE changing. Have changed. There'll always be a market for doe-eyed virgins but it's not a necessity even to be married well, if that were your goal. Education, intelligence, manners, and money, not necessarily in that order, are a pass to pretty much anything, regardless of number of sexual partners.

Not talking from experience here. Not at all. ;\)

That's what I was trying to express but rather lamely due to the fact that I was being defensive. It's especially true amongst middle-aged single folk. He might consider what his actions would be if he were single and met a woman who in every way met his mother's definition of high-status female except for the fact that she just happened to be a freak in bed. My supposition would be that instead of dumping her he would be popping Viagra like crazy in an effort to keep her.

However, I do value Cobra's insight because his POV is different from other's on the BB. He made me realize that I am to some extent re-enacting the class issues in my parent's marriage in my sex life but he has it all backwards. My mother was the one from a blue-collar background who gained social status through education and marrying my ancestors-came-over-on-the-Mayflower father. She was the one who because she cared about appearances and upward-mobility encouraged me to keep my legs crossed and not give out the milk for free and dress like the wife of a Republican politician. My father "taught" me that I had the right to act like a free-spirit as long as I upheld certain core values. For instance, he would have supported my decision to divorce because I did my best to care for my children and I was honest and forthright. I realize that the reason that I am angry at my 2bx is that I am blaming him for the fact that I know that I haven't acted in a manner that my father would respect since my separation. Driving around in red and white Corvettes with wolves when I didn't get my homework done. Bad, bad monkey. That's why I am so anxious. I feel like some punishment is going to fall down on me from above. It's kind of like I'm "allowed" to have sex like a boy but only if I follow the rules of honor that boys from my father's social class have to follow. The problem is that the message he also gave was "otherwise I'm kind of low-class like my mother". So, in a sense, I've been trying to f*ck my mother's value system by f*cking intelligent assertive upwardly-mobile men from impoverished backgrounds and thereby be better able to accept the part of me that is like my mother. For instance, I've quite often had people ask me if I was afraid to start my own business. Really, I wasn't and that was because of the part of me that is like my mother. There are reasons why I wasn't able to empathize with my mother when she would tell me that I was lucky to be forced to take ballet class because when she was a girl she had to go down to the corner store and pick up tampons and the racing form for her mother. I loved my semi-bawdy cuddly Rosie the Riveter grandmother and I loved my nice guy cuddly gentleman father and everything my non-cuddly mother stood for operated in rejection or opposition to them and I found it difficult to love or respect her. However, when I operate in relation to an upwardly-mobile African-American man, I gain acceptance of my mother's value system because I can feel how important it is to him not to be viewed as "raggedy" and I can sense the struggle to achieve his current status against society's oppression. I understood that it was important that "we look good together" when I was dating GP and I tried not to let him down. Also, it really is the case that I am more sexually attracted to men who are bold like my mother but I am more likely to love a man who is sweet like my father. That is why I want to find one who is both.

[Cobra]

Mojo,

I think we are getting on the same page, and I’m REALLY REALLY glad to see it.

He might consider what his actions would be if he were single and met a woman who in every way met his mother's definition of high-status female except for the fact that she just happened to be a freak in bed. My supposition would be that instead of dumping her he would be popping Viagra like crazy in an effort to keep her.

Yes, that would very likely be the case, but what I was discussing was who that woman (you) would feel, not how I (your various boyfriends) would feel.

However, I do value Cobra's insight because his POV is different from other's on the BB.

Thank you. You are the main reason I decided to post again, after I had decided it was consuming way too much of my time to post here. I kept watching you go down your path over the past few months, saw where you were going, what you were feeling and I though I saw why you were still being hurt. Everyone else was being a good friend to you. They all have you in their best interests, but I think the feel good support was actually digging you deeper into your hole.

I realize that the reason that I am angry at my 2bx is that I am blaming him for the fact that I know that I haven't acted in a manner that my father would respect since my separation.

If you remember, Nop used to focus on guilt as a major driver of self-destructive actions by “the infidel.” More and more I see guilt pushing women to take action (either good or bad) than I see this in men. But that is part of what makes a woman a woman, isn’t it? It makes up part of the mix that helps to create different flavors of empathy. Its just that too much can be bad (like anything else in a relationship).

That's why I am so anxious. I feel like some punishment is going to fall down on me from above. It's kind of like I'm "allowed" to have sex like a boy but only if I follow the rules of honor that boys from my father's social class have to follow. The problem is that the message he also gave was "otherwise I'm kind of low-class like my mother". So, in a sense, I've been trying to f*ck my mother's value system by f*cking intelligent assertive upwardly-mobile men from impoverished backgrounds and thereby be better able to accept the part of me that is like my mother.

Yes, I can see that, and could that punishment be rejection? Now, if you were doing all those things to subconsciously gain approval from your parents (via the surrogate fathers who were your boyfriends), then maybe you can see why you were headed for trouble. Your recent real-world experience seems to bear that out, doesn’t it?

BUT, if you are having sex because that is central to your values and morality, then I can’t see how someone calling you a “freak” would bother you at all. IMO, you might see such a person not as someone looking down on you, but rather someone who is just not sufficiently enlightened or developed to understand you higher meaning of sex. You might feel sad for that person’s lack of understanding or appreciation of sex, but I would hope you would not see it as having anything to do with you being deficient or a moron. Does this make sense?

(For all the others reading this thread and trying to work on their relationships, just learn to read the signs and ask if they make sense. Do the reactions you see square with the claims the other person makes about him/herself. The patterns will always repeat.)

I loved my semi-bawdy cuddly Rosie the Riveter grandmother and I loved my nice guy cuddly gentleman father and everything my non-cuddly mother stood for operated in rejection or opposition to them and I found it difficult to love or respect her.

Isn’t that the truth, and isn’t that the irony of how this damn FOO works! How many people have you known that hate one of their parents, yet have either unknowingly grown up to be just like that person they hate or they have hooked up with a reincarnation of that person as a spouse. So your mother was non-cuddly. You do know how all this works, right? Even though you hated her non-cuddliness, that is all you knew. So no wonder your exH seemed familiar and comfortable enough for you to date and marry. Even though you may have hated that part of him, it was familiar. Even though you wanted cuddliness more than anything, you did not really know what that was like, you never grew up with it, so when you got it, you didn’t know what to do with it, just as Burgbud said. Damn FOO!

I also think there might be some feminism in the mix. Of the “feminists” I have known (and married), they all seem to focus their sense of self by defining what they are not, what they will not tolerated, or won’t do. Because they never defined what they are or what they do want, when it does come along they either don’t recognize it or don’t know what to do with it in order to keep it. I thank Corri for helping to better understand this dynamic.

However, when I operate in relation to an upwardly-mobile African-American man, I gain acceptance of my mother's value system because I can feel how important it is to him not to be viewed as "raggedy" and I can sense the struggle to achieve his current status against society's oppression.

OK, I can understand this, but that is HIS struggle and HIS issue, not yours. Don’t try to gain his acceptance by being so understanding of his struggles. Let him accept you for you, and don’t try to buy his indebtedness to you because you are a white woman who understands the black man’s struggle. That starts to drift into manipulation.

I understood that it was important that "we look good together" when I was dating GP and I tried not to let him down.

Uh huh… important to whom…. you or him??? And who was it that you didn’t want to be let down… you or him???

Also, it really is the case that I am more sexually attracted to men who are bold like my mother but I am more likely to love a man who is sweet like my father. That is why I want to find one who is both.

Good, then find one because that is what you want and not what you need.

[Crazy Eddie]

Even though you hated her non-cuddliness, that is all you knew. So no wonder your exH seemed familiar and comfortable enough for you to date and marry. Even though you may have hated that part of him, it was familiar. Even though you wanted cuddliness more than anything, you did not really know what that was like, you never grew up with it, so when you got it, you didn’t know what to do with it, just as Burgbud said. Damn FOO!

But wait... she did grow up with it. Just not with her mom. Her dad showed all the cuddliness she could want, right? So why would she be driven to choose a man that's like her mom?

[mrsc]

I think that *because* her mom was non-cuddly and unavailable, she repeated the pattern as an adult and chose an unavailable man for her husband. I did the same thing, really. My own mother did, too. My mother (and her mother before her) was non-cuddly and emotionally unavailable, and while cac is definitely a cuddly person, he hasn't been emotionally available. Neither of his parents were. My own father never was, either. My own emotional unavailability revolves around my issues with sex, for the most part. This is probably true for the posters' wives who want nothing to do with sex. It manifest differently in different people.

So why do we pick unavailable partners? Because it is familiar.

The quote below is from here

As children we were victims - as adults we kept repeating the behaviors we learned as children - in one extreme or the other. The people in our lives were actors we unconsciously cast in roles that would recreate our childhood wounding so that we could try to heal it - try to get it right this time. We were energetically drawn to, and attracted to us, the people who would treat us in ways that felt familiar - because on some deep level we believed that is what we deserved. If our own parents could not love us, then we must not deserve to be loved.

Also, the Fear of Intimacy book that Fran mentioned recently talks about this too.

[Corri]

Cobra:

Good, then find one because that is what you want and not what you need.

Ah, you make it sound so simple. Given all the good points you made, however, one's 'needs' are always lurking, ready to upset the apple cart, so to speak, especially when a person doesn't KNOW their needs... and it isn't a 'bad' thing to have needs, either. (Not that you said it was... just... we all 'need.')

Mo:

I guess why I was warning you about taking your 'cow' along on your adventures... is because, personally, I think she is your most vulnerable animal.

I personally admire how you handle yourself sexually... and I was puzzled at you reacting to 'freak,' honestly. I thought for sure your monkey was going to come out and say 'really? wanna play another freak game? It goes like this...'

But... he hit a sensitive spot... and like Cobra said, it's good to know it is there (even though it hurt).

Maybe you will understand all this 'bouncing' I've been doing... through this entire process, I have run into, headlong, more sensitive spots inside myself than I could ever have fathomed. I would never label any of them 'good,' but there is nothing like a divorce, losing a dog (I had to find mine a good home, remember?), having to move, reinvent your life and your identity, to bring to the surface all those sensitive issues (FOO or otherwise).

Honestly, I thought I was someone so different... only to come to find that I was just very, very good at keeping all those issues buried and hidden... to the extent that I didn't even know they were THERE... I was completely and utterly baffled by things that would send me into a tailspin, and even more baffled by things that would not.

I'm sure it is easier to see it in me than in yourself (it always is). I love your posts, I love your adventures, I love your zoos and your recent explorations. But I also know that women, when they hold lots of anger inside, tend to turn that anger onto themselves (as opposed to men who tend to turn it out toward the world) through self-destructive behavior. It doesn't always FEEL self-destructive... but through that sense of failure and guilt that comes from divorce... (whether it was your 'fault' or not)... you unleash upon yourself the 'you' that was never healed in the first place. Make any sense? And it usually happens (at least as I've experienced it) when you least expect it, and in ways that you would never have expected.

You seem to know that... I'm just here to kinda confirm a lot of what Cobra is saying to you... and ask you to be a little more gentle and patient with yourself. You have lots of healing to do... and that is entirely OKAY.

Well... that post contained like absolutely no good or useful information... but... it does contain a giant HUG for you.

[LustForLife]

My father "taught" me that I had the right to act like a free-spirit as long as I upheld certain core values. For instance, he would have supported my decision to divorce because I did my best to care for my children and I was honest and forthright. I realize that the reason that I am angry at my 2bx is that I am blaming him for the fact that I know that I haven't acted in a manner that my father would respect since my separation. Driving around in red and white Corvettes with wolves when I didn't get my homework done. Bad, bad monkey. That's why I am so anxious. I feel like some punishment is going to fall down on me from above.

Then why do you keep doing it? That is where some of the self-destructive comments seem to be coming from. If you are not happy acting as such, then maybe taking a break from the wolves for a while might not be such a bad idea. Work on you and getting your money affairs in order. Stop spending so much money on designer bras.
I totally get the somewhat manic behavior you are displaying right now. I went through that when H left. Put way too much on the credit card and I would have slept with..let's just say...many men if I wasn't so fixated on soldier boy.
My point was also that you are not going to find the "sweet" man you are looking for when you lead so much with your sexuality. Example: Having hot phone sex before meeting in person...probably a bad idea.
Of course this also depends on what you mean by "sweet". None of the men you have been dating sound at all "sweet" to me but we might have different ideas of what that is.
Anyways, I hope you are ok.

LFL

[Lillieperl]

Originally Posted By: Cobra (to Mojo)
Even though you hated her non-cuddliness, that is all you knew. So no wonder your exH seemed familiar and comfortable enough for you to date and marry. Even though you may have hated that part of him, it was familiar. Even though you wanted cuddliness more than anything, you did not really know what that was like, you never grew up with it, so when you got it, you didn’t know what to do with it, just as Burgbud said. Damn FOO!

Crazy Eddie: But wait... she did grow up with it. Just not with her mom. Her dad showed all the cuddliness she could want, right? So why would she be driven to choose a man that's like her mom?

Here's a scary thought: I've read that men and women both marry their mothers.

[Cobra]

Lil, Crazy Eddie,

But wait... she did grow up with it. Just not with her mom. Her dad showed all the cuddliness she could want, right? So why would she be driven to choose a man that's like her mom?

Here's a scary thought: I've read that men and women both marry their mothers.

I think Mojo and the board has been focused too much on her exH. He is the obvious “culprit,” right? He is childish, downright mean at times, irresponsible, depressed, etc. But all this flies in the face of the “rule” that two people in a relationship are on the same emotional level. So if her exH is like that, what is Mojo like? How is she on the same level as her exH, if she seems so much more aware, sexually evolved, outgoing, etc?

I think the issues is what is NOT present within Mojo, rather than what harmful of dysfunctional things are present – and those things seem to be few. I wonder how Mojo’s mom responded to the cuddliness of her dad? Did she turn her dad away or ignore him? Did her dad cuddle with Mojo in lieu of his wife (there’s your possible sexual molestation issue – not that he did anything sexual or abusive, but that he placed Mojo in a role inappropriate for a child). How could a child be able to respond to such cuddliness (and neediness) from an adult?

If Mojo did not see her mother model the proper response, then she had to make it up for herself. It seems her older sister had a similar problem since she was having sex with the neighborhood boys. I think it is important for the mother to model proper boundaries for the daughters, how to put off overtly aggressive men and how to properly accept advances, and in so doing, show how those advances from a husband make the wife fully blossom and become fulfilled. That’s what I think is missing.

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm pretty sure I didn't; the age difference is just way too small. Unless there was a time machine involved...

Anyway, I'd always heard that the women tended to marry men like dear ol' Dad. At any rate, MJ didn't lack for a good model; she just had a bad model as well and ended up picking a guy like that one instead. The non-cuddliness wasn't "all she knew" as far as I can tell, but it is what she went with in her partner. So maybe the women are more drawn to guys like their mothers for some reason.

Something just occurred to me. Perhaps guys don't pick people like their mothers; instead the wife starts acting like his mother because she gets more of a reaction when she uses the same signals his mother does, and over time she tends to do more of what works. I could see how that would work on women as well.

[Kettricken]

Something just occurred to me. Perhaps guys don't pick people like their mothers; instead the wife starts acting like his mother because she gets more of a reaction when she uses the same signals his mother does, and over time she tends to do more of what works. I could see how that would work on women as well.

Now THAT is a very interesting line of thought ....