Further Adventures of Sock Monkey Girl

[Crazy Eddie]

IMO you very clearly have some sort of sexual abuse issues. That does not mean you were necessarily molested by someone, but you were clearly modeled with inappropriate behavior, namely by your mother. For whatever reason, you started having sex at an early age and, I think, saw it as a way to gain acceptance with men, just as you mother modeled. But you are smart enough to know that society tends to frown on such behavior, so you became the eccentric rebel type.

Either that or she really liked having sex and became an eccentric rebel type because it was against the rules to have sex.

[MJontheMend]

I have empathy for that as well. I have a tremendous amount of empathy for Nice Guys. I can emphathize with your STBX (where, as in my case, the S stands for "someday").

Doesn't mean I'd recommend you dating anybody from that group.

I don't think that labeling a man a "nice guy" or not changes the way basic psychology works. It is funny to me that you are implying that the men I am dating are clueless "nice guys" and Cobra is implying the opposite. What BF said about NG and GP is also true about FSG. They are big boys who can take care of themselves but that doesn't mean that they don't have puppies and that doesn't mean that I wouldn't feel bad if I knew that I kicked one. I didn't get that I was being kind of b*tchy by teasing FSG about being a "playah". It wasn't a very nice way to behave towards somebody I consider to be a friend. I don't give a f*ck about relationship dynamics or all that one-up/one-down, pursuer/avoider bullsh*t. If I am aware of the fact that any amount of insecurity or low self-esteem I feel, conscious or unconscious, is causing me to behave in a way that is in any way unkind then I am going to feel bad about it and put a stop to that behavior. That doesn't make me a martyr just a decent human being.

[MJontheMend]

Either that or she really liked having sex and became an eccentric rebel type because it was against the rules to have sex.

Or could it be that the daughter of somebody who actually has a biological condition known as bi-polar might exhibit the usual 'symptoms' of children of the bi-polar. High intelligence, sex drive and creativity. Thus really liking sex and being an eccentric rebel are not cause and effect but both consequences of a relatively low number of dopamine receptors in the brain. Of course, I could probably start chugging fish oil, carbohydrates and lithium and get a job doing data entry and a nice bland husband who I wouldn't even want to f*ck me after we sat on our plastic covered sofa watching "Murder She Wrote" together on Saturday night. On second thought, I think I'll take the occasional crying jag.

[Cobra]

Mojo,

Martyrs always believe themselves to be decent human beings, trying to help others and sacrifice themselves. Altruism is good when doe for the sake of altruism. When done as a means to gain acceptance, find love, or even an ego boost, then it becomes self destructive. It’s just hard to see that. I‘ve not known any martyrs who have been able to see that in themselves, but I’ve known plenty of people who could see that very dynamic in the martyr.

Either that or she really liked having sex and became an eccentric rebel type because it was against the rules to have sex.

We all like having sex. But that’s the hypocrisy in society, isn’t it? Men can have lots of sex and become experienced, but women who do so become sluts. I’m not saying that is right or fair, that’s just the way it is. If a woman does not want to follow those rules, then good for her, but the “consequence” is that others WILL think of her as a slut, or maybe a “freak.” It think the men Mojo was dating knew that about her and were ok with it. SHE was the one who was not. That raises the question of what exactly is it that she wants?

Or could it be that the daughter of somebody who actually has a biological condition known as bi-polar might exhibit the usual 'symptoms' of children of the bi-polar. High intelligence, sex drive and creativity.

Now you’re going back to your deflection ways. Maybe bipolar is a reasonable excuse for your mother, because back then people understood less about the condition, there was more of a taboo to seeing a shrink, and there was not medication to deal with the condition. Today none of that is true, especially for you, since you recognize this as a possible condition you may have. If you do have bipolar tendencies, then get some medication and regulate it, but don’t use it as an excuse for eccentric behavior beyond your control.

You are trying to justify your eccentricity, your “freakishness” and high sex drive, your rebelliousness, and you want your men to accept it and like it too. You might find someone who can do all of that, and he will certainly be worth searching and waiting for. But I think it might be a long shot.

Of course, I could probably start chugging fish oil, carbohydrates and lithium and get a job doing data entry and a nice bland husband who I wouldn't even want to f*ck me after we sat on our plastic covered sofa watching "Murder She Wrote" together on Saturday night. On second thought, I think I'll take the occasional crying jag.

This is VERY interesting to me. What is it against “bland” people and “bland” lifestyles that you hate so much? What makes you so much better because you are not “bland?” Furthermore, by what standard do you define “bland?” I bet there of some people who may appear “bland” who have a very adventurous, daring, exciting side to them. What is it about “convention” that makes it better to be alone and disappointed and to have a crying jag? What snotty little rich kid(s) put you down and teased you when you were young?

[Burgbud]

It is funny to me that you are implying that the men I am dating are clueless "nice guys" and Cobra is implying the opposite.

That's not what I meant. I was listing men or groups of men who I can empathize with but whom I wouldn't suggest you date. I asked what you thought about a man who wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with you and you answered, essentially, "I can empathize."

Empathy or no empathy you're choosing to ignore some pretty odd behavior. You appear to want to be very self-aware unless it gets in the way of just flowing with a relationship you're enjoying. To that extent I agree with the author of that magazine (or was it web site?) article...you're not sorting fast enough.

Unless you're not interested in sorting right now and you just want to be in some unheavy, enjoyable Rs...in which case it would make sense to date fewer men interested in full-on heavy Rs.

Tell your monkey to stop chattering for a minute and let your lionness act in congruence with the desires of the zookeeper. There'll still be plenty of action for the monkey.

And yes, any man who whines about you not calling him enough is......a whiner. And a touch needy.

[MJontheMend]

What is it about “convention” that makes it better to be alone and disappointed and to have a crying jag? What snotty little rich kid(s) put you down and teased you when you were young?

I can not for the life of me understand why you keep forming such inaccurate pictures of me as a child. A while back you thought I was a pathetic chubby girl who sought affection from men through sex. Now I was apparently somebody who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and was oppressed for it. Neither is in any way true. I was attractive and my parents were both educated professionals. I'm actually kind of a snob who makes fun of people who buy art to match their sofas or only read bestsellers. What is true is that I have a high biological sex drive and a curious nature. What is also true is that by some weird coincidence of nature, I am also pretty much built like a brick house and I was when I was 14 too. So my appearance is sexual and so is my nature. However, the fact remains that despite the way I write about sexuality on this BB, in real life my personality and manner aren't overtly sexual. ( Maybe I'm wrong? Corri is the only one here who has met me in person. I guess she could confirm or not.) For instance, FSG is so dominant that I don't even talk much during phone sex but once when I was he started laughing and said that I sounded like a mix between 1970s porn and a romance novel. Then he said that I ought to stick to the romance novel verbiage because it sounded more natural coming from me.

You are trying to justify your eccentricity, your “freakishness” and high sex drive, your rebelliousness, and you want your men to accept it and like it too. You might find someone who can do all of that, and he will certainly be worth searching and waiting for. But I think it might be a long shot.

I understand that there are men who will be unkind to me just because I am highly sexually responsive for the same reason that some boys pull the wings off of flies. My 2bx certainly was quite unkind to me though maybe not for that reason. But I guess I'm a bit more optimistic about human nature than you. Let me tell you a secret. Sometimes boys are really sweet. The one who called me a freak the other day, here's what he said last night. He said "First I'll kiss the scar on your belly." Doesn't mean that he's the man that I'll dodder about with in cardigan sweaters when I'm 90 but just maybe it means that the world is a slightly lovelier place than as imagined in your philosophy.

[Burgbud]

Whoops, didn't catch that quick enough to edit. I hope it was clear from context that: I asked what you thought about a man who wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with you and you answered, essentially, "I can empathize." should have been I asked what you thought about a man who wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with you without even having met you and you answered, essentially, "I can empathize."

If not, I apologize.

[MJontheMend]

Cobra,

I'm sorry if I was a bit rude in my responses to you. It just seems to me like your theories are similar to those held by late 19th and early 20th century male psychiatrists who chose to label the natural feminine submissive sexual desire to be f*cked as a sort of psychological disease. If a woman was in a sexless marriage and didn't react well to that she was labeled as "hysterical" because she was unable to be a happy little bunny living in a doll house with her St. Bernard husband like her better "adjusted" LDW neighbors. Frequently her monkey would then be electro-shocked into submission. I would like to continue this discussion with you but I wish that you would first re-read the chapter in Schnarch where he discusses the difference between "making love" and "f*cking" etc.

Since the urge to f*ck is essentially an aggressive tendency, when a sexual submissive expresses a desire to be f*cked she is essentially expressing a desire to have a violence acted upon her. Therefore, I can understand why men frequently find the behavior of a high drive sexual submissive quite confusing. That is why it is sometimes more "risky" for me to have sex with men who are not sexually experienced even if they are entirely nice people otherwise. Now, it is not the case that I have ever been molested/abused/raped but I have frequently let or encouraged men to straight-up f*ck me. If there was a video of one of my sexual encounters with FSG last weekend probably the only way you'd be able to tell that it wasn't a video of a woman being raped would be that at one junction he said "You like it like that?" and waited for my signal of "yes" and also by the fact that I'd be smiling afterwards. Now, if I was feeling very strong bunny/monkey/lioness and not very cow, I might be able to regard my male partner as just "a beer to be slammed" like BF sees himself in his encounters. However, lately, although my bunny is moving up rapidly she is still only at about 75% and my lioness actually took a hit post-separation and she's struggling down around 49%. My monkey is,of course, irrepressible and I'm lucky if I can keep her at 100% and not invading the other animal's cages and eating their fodder. I have been trying to keep my cow on a reducing diet but I think she and the monkey have formed some kind of unholy alliance in opposition to the zoo-keeper where the monkey sneaks into the cookie jar and shares with the cow.

Okay, the point I'm trying to get to is that, as BB and I were discussing on an earlier thread, even if you are fully self-aware you can't avoid basic human psychological reactions. If my lioness were strong, I might actually have the urge to smack a guy on the *ss after sex. When my monkey has full charge of the zoo, I often do things like kiss a man on the penis just to make him flinch and then laugh. If I was feeling weak bunny I might express a "need" to cuddle or seek some other sort of affectionate affirmation. Lately, I've been vibing fairly strong "bunkey" so my post-sex interactions go kind of like:

Mojo: (light-heartedly)Now I'm going to roll in for the cuddle.

FSG: I love it when you roll in for the cuddle.

Mojo: I know.

Let's say I had sex with a guy who wasn't down with the cuddling for whatever reason. If I was feeling strong it might go like:

Mojo: Rolling in for the cuddle.

Guy: No cuddle.

Mojo: (shrug)(light-heartedly) Are you aware of the fact that you are a dickhead? (which would probably either make the guy laugh and behave in the alternate appropriate manner* or cause him to tell me some terrible story about his last evil GF)

*alternate appropriate manner = casual light-hearted/joking validation instead of affirmative affection. Like a guy could say "You are cute and that was fun. Now go home."

What I am basically saying is that because women get much worse oxytocin hangovers after sex, IMO, men need to take a bit more responsibility for being the designated driver afterwards. Just like how that would be true if you were downing shots with a woman who weighed 50 lbs. less than you. If a man wants to f*ck me, he doesn't have to ask my father's permission and put a ring on my finger but he should try to be fairly consistent and responsible in his behavior before and after. That is, if he is signaling "I am fond of you" before sex, he should do his best to continue to signal that afterwards. If he is signaling "You are hot. Let's have casual sex." then he is at least responsible for signaling "Having casual sex is fun and you are hot." afterwards rather than putting some kind of post-aggressive-sexual guilt reaction on me when I'm trying to deal with my own pool of oxytocin in a mature manner.

Anyways, one of the points of the title of this thread is that when I heard FSG tell his brother that he had "his swagger back on", in a sense what I was hearing was that he had received "too much" affirmation/validation from having sex with me (due to the screaming/smiling combo)and was in full wolf mode. When a guy signals that I know that I am in for some jerky behavior. If I was really smart I would just go sequester myself in a room and do needlework at that point or something like that. At least I have achieved the level of intelligence at this point in my life that I know better than to say something like "What's wrong?" to a guy in that mode. Anyways, my assumption when I didn't hear from FSG earlier this week was that he was off doing wolf stuff and my best option was to just stick to my needlepoint room. So, I was feeling bad when he indicated that he had actually been in puppy mode. OTOH, I think it is entirely possible that he actually was in wolf mode and the puppy thing was just a defensive cover because he's actually pretty smart/experienced.

[MJontheMend]

Whoops, didn't catch that quick enough to edit. I hope it was clear from context that: I asked what you thought about a man who wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with you and you answered, essentially, "I can empathize." should have been I asked what you thought about a man who wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with you without even having met you and you answered, essentially, "I can empathize."

Well, there are a couple things going on here. First, I should note that based on what FSG told me himself, I might be tempted to label him as a "male slut" rather than just a wolf. That is , I got the strong impression that he spent most of his 20s/30s sitting on a bar stool on a Friday night sometimes taking the initiative to get a woman, sometimes letting women get him and sometimes just f*cking whatever monkey was left in the bar at closing time. He straight-up told me that he was willing to chase me because I am pretty close to his physical sexual ideal. I know it is rather dysfunctional but I like this for the obvious reason that I spent close to two decades with a man who told me over and over again that I was not his sexual ideal. Since my separation I have re-discovered that probably about 80% of the male population wouldn't kick me out of bed for eating crackers and a smaller percentage (maybe 13%?- lol) is strongly attracted to my "type". The interesting thing is that for various reasons my "type" is in relatively short supply so I don't have any problem getting dates even though I'm not most men's ideal type. (The men who are attracted to me all say pretty much the same thing which is that they can't have sex with a skinny woman (current cultural ideal)but they aren't attracted to women who are shaped like apples. I think the reason why my type is in short-supply at the moment is that women who are shaped like me either think that they are too fat and hide/change their bodies or buy into the cultural stereotype that a tall curvy woman who dresses in clothes that fit her form must be a stupid trailer-trash bimbo. (if you think I'm exaggerating just consider the kind of comments made about Monica Lewinsky and her body type post-scandal). I'm not afraid of being mistaken for a trailer-trash bimbo because I am extremely intelligent and my father was nothing if not a gentleman (I just had the enlightening thought that it is true that when I operate in opposition to my father's value system I start to feel like I do deserve to be treated like cr*p. BTW: my father was a fairly liberal intellectual so his value system did not include shaming his daughters for being sexual beings. Voila! The reason why I am feeling kind of bad about being monkey lately is because I have been doing stuff like buying high heels instead of paying my debts on time which my father would seriously frown upon. My father was the kind of guy who would just sigh when my sisters and I would dress all mini-monkey and head out to the roller-rink but he would say stuff to me like "There is no reason why a member of our family should be getting an F in Physics." When my 2bx knocked me up my father got a bit drunk and maudlin and said something like "I didn't think I'd live to see a grandson." (why he assumed the child would be a boy is a question) and then later he said "You know that you don't have to get married. You are perfectly capable of raising the child on your own." but stupid, stupid, stupid me didn't believe him.)


END IMPORTANT DIGRESSION

I should admit that I was also kind of amused by the fact that FSG was ordering me up like a Russian Mail-Order Bride as LP indicated. On one level I did believe that he had solidly determined that I was the woman he wanted because I could tell that he was the kind of guy who decides what kind of car he is going to move up to next year or where he is going to go on vacation and then does it (Tye 8/3). However, since I am not actually an item for sale in a catalogue, I didn't/don't feel obliged to "deliver" myself in exactly the manner he might prefer. OTOH, I realize that I'm making an error in judgment if I think that a guy who operates like that has no "feelings". People who are tough/assertive and jolly/optimistic can be hurt too.

[SouthernGirl]

Thanks,

Sometimes I think that the members of this BB except me and maybe BB and BF live in Amish villages without even television sets. Pretty much I am doing exactly what most single women my age with approximately my personality type do. I'm not about to hang out at bars looking for one night stands but I'm not going to stay celibate until I meet just the perfect member of the male population to spend the rest of my life with either. It's okay if I muck around a bit for a while.

I've been in a relationship for almost a decade but I still remember what it's like to be single, and I have tons of single friends. Cobra may believe what he wishes but times ARE changing. Have changed. There'll always be a market for doe-eyed virgins but it's not a necessity even to be married well, if that were your goal. Education, intelligence, manners, and money, not necessarily in that order, are a pass to pretty much anything, regardless of number of sexual partners.

Not talking from experience here. Not at all.