SM: What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?
Lil: It means they don't want to.
SM: So you believe all action is governed by conscious intent?
Certainly I don't believe all action is governed by conscious intent, and that's not a logical conclusion to draw from what I said. I DO believe when someone wants to do something, they GENERALLY do it, and when they don't, they GENERALLY do not. Of course, people can be torn, ambivalent, etc., but if something is important to someone, they generally figure out a way to do it.
In the book "He's Just Not That Into You," the author addresses the subject of guys (in this case) who make excuses (and women who accept the excuses) for why they haven't called. "He's busy," "he travels a lot," "he's taking care of his mom/kids/house/job/dogs/ferrets." The fact is, if a guy wants to talk to you he will call you. If he doesn't have time, he will make time. He will find a way, because it is important to him, you are important to him, he wants to talk to you, talking to you is the high point of his day.
She's not calling the C because she doesn't want to. If it were important TO HER, or by implication, if YOUR REASONS were important to her, she would do it. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. You've been accepting her excuses for TEN YEARS.
I could say, "We better have sex by mm/dd/2008 or I'm out of here!" Is that conducive to rekindling a sex life? Has that worked for anyone?
Take out the date part and yes, it has worked for me. But it might not have. My H made the choice to make the sex issue important to him...because we're worth it I guess. I think it is still fear that keeps people stuck in these SSM. Fear of the other person basically saying, you're not worth it. So they stay stuck, the M stays "as is". I guess you are at least being honest with her in your words. That is good. But she will sense if you are talking out your azz or not. It's been 10 years of no sex. Lots of people would not be able to go that long in a M without hitting the wall. I know I wouldn't. So I dunno.... I still think she is not going to believe you since you've already put up with it this long. She needs to see you mean action. I don't know what that means for you and your M. In my M, it basically meant I was one foot out the door and he saw it...because I told him....and meant it. That's all I can say. Only say it if you Really mean it.
(SM) agree with Fearless that I need to reinforce, in some way, when she exhibits the kind of behavior I like. I have been stingy on praise, and I think it is something that would make her feel loved (a la 5LL).
I don't know if you've read The Way of the Superior Man but he's got a very short (1 page, essentially) chapter on this topic that you might find interesting. Click on: TWotSM...then search for the phrase "praise her freely" and click on the link to page 61.
(Lil) What IS your deal breaker, SM?
As long as he's being honest with himself and with her, I don't think he has to define an absolute line in the sand. He can say, "I'll know it when I see it." That won't work for somebody fused who's into excuse making but I think it would work for SM at this point.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
If my wife isn't going to have a sex life with me, we are going to have to get a divorce. I told her that last month, and I wrote that on the first page of this thread.
Do you think I should point out to her every time she doesn't do something I want her to do? Should I remind her that I will divorce her if we don't have sex? How often should I remind her that I will divorce her if we don't have sex, once a week, every other week, or once a month? What time limit should I place on it?
OK, I don't want you to think I'm beating up on you. You are right, it's important to figure out what my boundaries are. I have worked mine out, and I have expressed the important ones. But the most important boundary in question belongs to my wife. She won't let me have sex with her, and she won't have sex with me. The only boundary enforcement measure that I have is to choose someone else besides my wife (either through affair or post divorce dating) to be my lover. In order to influence a partner whose boundary issue is that they won't give you something you need, you have to negotiate her. I think holding divorce over her head is more likely to lead to martyr sex. To her credit, my wife has never been willing to do that.
So I'm trying to use a positive, persistent approach. I don't know if it'll work. If it doesn't then I'll have to go to the lawyers.
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SM: What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?
Lil: It means they don't want to.
SM: So you believe all action is governed by conscious intent?
Certainly I don't believe all action is governed by conscious intent, and that's not a logical conclusion to draw from what I said.I DO believe when someone wants to do something, they GENERALLY do it, and when they don't, they GENERALLY do not. Of course, people can be torn, ambivalent, etc., but if something is important to someone, they generally figure out a way to do it.
You are arguing strongly the italicized position, while using the bolded position as a disclaimer. That's OK. I don't really care why she does or does not make a call. I'm OK if she doesn't want to go to a counselor. I don't either. I want her to be my lover. If we can get there without counseling, I'm good.
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WHAT IS YOUR DEAL BREAKER?
I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME!
sm
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
I think it is still fear that keeps people stuck in these SSM. Fear of the other person basically saying, you're not worth it.
In my case, it's not fear. It is reconciling myself to the prospect that if (when) I divorce my wife I will be in the position of having to support two households while only getting to see my children every other weekend.
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LFL: It's been 10 years of no sex.
I wish I hadn't written that. Seeing others write that makes me feel like a real freak. I thought I had gotten over that feeling.
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She needs to see you mean action. I don't know what that means for you and your M. In my M, it basically meant I was one foot out the door and he saw it...because I told him....and meant it. That's all I can say. Only say it if you Really mean it.
LFL
Yes. It has taken me a really long time to get to the point where I could both say it and mean it. Because I really like being a father and my role will be drastically diminished should we divorce. For a long time I felt trapped. But, now that I'm emotionally ready to divorce, I feel free. I'm not just free to leave, I'm also free to stay. I hold the key. And this has lightened my interactions with W quite a bit. I don't have the same anxiety over the individual outcomes and have a slightly better ability to see the big picture over where our relationship is headed.
BTW, when you had "one foot out the door", were you worried you would have to leave your house, support your husband financially, and that you would only be allowed to see your children every other weekend? If that's what having one foot out the door looked like to you, how would that have colored your decision making process?
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
I don't know if you've read The Way of the Superior Man
Yes, I did read most of it. I had issues with a lot of it's gender stereotypes, but I think the specific case of my wife may fit. Actually, giving praise is just sound behavioral psychological practice. Giving reward for positive behavior reinforces the positive behavior. There's room enough for everyone in Skinner's Box.
I had a case last week where my boss told me that a guy who works for me complained to him that he thought I took credit from him in a meeting on Tuesday. After I got done fuming about this guy going over my head, I decided I would talk to him about the meeting to find out what specifically I said to piss him off (I couldn't remember). What I did instead was praised his work loudly, in his presence, during a much bigger meeting Friday. He actually thanked me afterwards. So you see, it's not just women who flourish from praise.
The bonus was that I avoided having one of those "conversations" with my employee, and just fixed it by doing something different. Don't say what you are going to do, just do it.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
BTW, when you had "one foot out the door", were you worried you would have to leave your house, support your husband financially, and that you would only be allowed to see your children every other weekend? If that's what having one foot out the door looked like to you, how would that have colored your decision making process?
Well, my H and I have been separated before so I know first hand how it feels, including all the financial burdens as well as childrearing difficulties. It sucks. My H and I went into a lot of debt when he left. I didn't even have a job at that time. I'm happy to say the debt is gone now. But it was very devastating when it happened. But my H was also not in a stable frame of mind when he left. He was very depressed and looking back he is mortified by how he acted. So yes, your situation is different. You want to make a smart decision in a good frame of mind. Will you see your kids less? Probably. Will it be hard, money wise?, yes. But you know all this already and so did I. The fact remains can you live your life in a sexless M. You are going to have to make hard choices. And I don't blame you at all for not wanting to make that choice. I would do everything possible to avoid making that choice but ultimately it comes down to what your W wants to do. So if my own H said, I just can't give you anything more, I probably would have had to end the M. It is hard to even write that now because we are doing so much better and I am so grateful that I did not have to make that choice. I'm probably rambling a bit here but it still comes down to what you ultimately want out of your life SM. None of us are getting any younger. Are you going to regret your choices later in life? Take some action, one way or the other. I truly hope your W decides to work on the M.
If my wife isn't going to have a sex life with me, we are going to have to get a divorce. I told her that last month, and I wrote that on the first page of this thread.
Do you think I should point out to her every time she doesn't do something I want her to do? Should I remind her that I will divorce her if we don't have sex? How often should I remind her that I will divorce her if we don't have sex, once a week, every other week, or once a month? What time limit should I place on it?
I'm pretty sure you aren't planning on pointing out her every wrong move but just wanted to make sure you don't!!
I'm an engineer and I do consulting work. This is an article I try to leave with management when I leave some jobs.
"People will engage in pleasant activities. Research in education has shown that it takes a 4 to 1 praise to criticism ratio to maintain ideal student on-task behavior. To change student behavior, it takes a significantly higher ratio, about 8 to 1 praise to criticism.
Researchers also asked teachers to record how they use various techniques to change student behavior. They asked teachers to group their behavior change methods into seven categories which included: pain, fear and anxiety, frustration, humiliation and embarrassment, boredom, physical discomfort, and positive comments.
When they analyzed the data, they found that the actual praise to criticism ratio was 1 to 4 - that's one praise to four criticisms! Teachers, by their patterns of verbal interaction, were actually creating off-task problems for themselves.
How do the above apply in your situation as a leader? Do you praise more often than criticize? Or is it the other way around? Think about it." - Praise to Criticism Ratio (http://www.isixsigma.com/)
I think this can be an important concept for any area in which we want to change another's behavior.
Another "trick" is to try to stop thinking about the past 10 years. Leave them in the past and focus on your future with your wife. Keep focused on what you want to have with her rather than on what you "don't" want to have. Try to look for all the positives in her and figure a way to share those positives with her in a way that allows her to feel good.
Another thing to focus on is to know that this is all your choice. Your decision to give your wife another chance is your choice. She's free to do what she wants with that chance. And you are free to make your own decision when you want to.
Good Luck!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
So if my own H said, I just can't give you anything more, I probably would have had to end the M. It is hard to even write that now because we are doing so much better and I am so grateful that I did not have to make that choice.
Yes, but remember that the choice does get even harder when ending the marriage means the other person keeps your kids away from you nearly all the time at your expense.
Of course that's not a completely foregone conclusion. You could tell her that unless she becomes a real wife to you that you will end the marriage and if she tries to get sole custody you will make it as difficult and expensive as humanly possible. You might even arrange to record her the next time she "jokingly" threatens to kill you if you try to be a real presence in their lives without living like a monk. Can't hurt.
The really messed up part is that holding the upper hand over you really diminishes her attraction toward you. I wonder if this is a big part of many women's sex drive "mysteriously" vanishing after the kids are born... knowing that he'll fall in line and take an awful lot of crap because they both know she can probably take his kids away any time she feels like it, and her possession of the upper hand kills her attraction and respect.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
