You locked the thread. It had been going a long time. I am happy to hear that you have found a way to be at peace with your situation. I know that it is very hard for you. But small improvements do mean a lot. Just being able to have a pleasant Christmas with your wife's family is an enormous breakthrough. I hope that they will continue to be civil to you.
I am going to go to the other thread and pull some particularly good posts and bring them here, so that we can continue this subject.
This post was my first in answer to the question: Does anyone have an opinion on which is more effective, Retrouvaille or Counseling?
My experience was that Retrouvaille was effective, counseling was ineffective. In counseling my quiet, reserved husband dominated the conversation and spent the whole time complaining about me. The therapist rarely moved the topic forward. We wasted time rehashing the past. In Retrouvaille the past was forgotten after the first morning. We never dealt with finger-pointing and incriminations. We dealt with feelings. We always had equal time to get our thoughts on paper and equal time to discuss them. There was no third party to take sides. Didn't need one. In Retrouvaille we spent an entire weekend focused on us, not an hour here and there carved out of the workday over a period of months. In Retrouvaille we could see the goal -- to be like the couples who led the sessions, and the loving way they interacted with each other. And Retrouvaille was a bargain; counseling was a financial drain.
This is a detailed description of what goes on at a Retrouvaille weekend.
Retrouvaille, meaning rediscovery in French, is an organization with support from the Catholic church that holds weekend retreats around the world to help people heal their broken marriages. They have a website, http://www.helpourmarriage.org. The program works by example.
It is in the format of a conference. It begins right after you get there on Friday night. The first couple starts talking about the pain in their marriage. At first it's surprising to hear people be so open and honest about their lives, and about things that most people try to hide, like infidelity or abuse. But these are couples who have experienced misery in their marriages, and they are sharing their stories with you -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. They sit in front of you, with occasional tears in their eyes, holding hands and giving each other support, telling you openly and honestly about their lives, what went wrong, and how they fixed it. The presentations probably last about an hour and then you are given a question to answer in your notebook. The men stay in the room to write; the women go to the bedrooms. The next time you get a question it will be the men who go to the bedrooms to write. Once the time is up, the couples meet in the bedrooms to share their writings. Then there is a snack, and that's it for friday.
Saturday morning begins with an optional Mass and breakfast. Then the presenters begin again. On Saturday you are taught how to dialogue with your spouse. This is a written communication technique which allows you to express yourself without interruption. It is superior to conversation. You practice doing dialogues with your spouse, in private. They give you questions to dialogue about. These questions help you and your spouse understand each other at a deeper level than you ever could by simply talking. You break for lunch, dinner, have time for walks on the grounds of the retreat, etc. Sunday you continue with dialogue and learn about the Post sessions. It closes with a Mass. (My husband and I were a little rude and left before the Mass. No one ever said anything about it.)
The initial program takes a weekend. You can do it in your home city or go somewhere else and make it a mini-vacation. There are six follow-up, or Post sessions. You would want to do those locally. The Post sessions are very important to strengthen the couple after the weekend. They help you to continue the openness and understanding with each other. They teach concepts like, love is a decision. Or, marriage is like a building supported by four posts: love, commitment, trust, and forgiveness. If you break one of the posts, like trust, and if forgiveness is weak, then the building comes crashing down. To rebuild the marriage, you must begin with a good foundation, and then rebuild the four posts.
While it is sponsored by the Church, it is open to all. My husband and I are not Catholics, and we benefited tremendously from the experience. We did not find the presentations by the priest to be too slanted to Catholic doctrine. He was there to be of service to the Catholics in the room who wanted his services. We were told not to confess new things to each other -- the priest was there to take confessions. I found that interesting. They do not focus on the past, they focus on building a new future together.
Retrouvaille helps you to look at the positive things about your marriage and your spouse and stop looking at the negatives. And it teaches you to communicate, not to win an argument, but to understand the other person's feelings. Those two things really turned our lives around. Instead of thinking all day about why I was mad at my husband I started to think instead about the nice things he did. And we both changed. We changed the way we looked at each other. We changed the way we interacted with each other. We changed the way we were. Our friends have noticed the change and commented on it.
Retrouvaille was a turning point in our lives. It was probably the single best thing we have ever done together in 27 years of marriage. Everyone should learn what they teach early in their marriage. It's a shame to wait as long as we did. And it is not a big time commitment. Less than 48 hours. What else can you do on a weekend that has such a big reward? I can't think of anything.
My husband of 27 years was having an affair during the second half of 2006. It was a long-distance affair with his old girlfriend from before he even met me. He was talking to her on the cell phone everyday, emailing, and meeting her at conferences. For his birthday he took a "vacation alone" spending 4 days with her at a hotel just a couple of hours from here. That's when I figured it out and actually looked at the cell phone bills from the past few months. I knew exactly who he was talking to when I saw the city she lived in on the bill. I confronted him (while wearing my sexiest nightgown) and demanded that he end the affair. He said he would. Two weeks later, I checked the cell phone records again, and they were still at it. We had awful talks trying to work things out ourselves. We had ugly scenes in public. At the lowest point, when we both were thinking, "tomorrow I call a lawyer", I said to him, " I hear there is a marital retreat that helps people like us. It's called Retrouvaille." He asked what I knew about it. All I knew was that one of my co-workers had gone there recently with her husband, and she came back with glowing comments. He said "OK, look into it." So I got the web address from my friend, and I made the phone call and signed us up.
We attended our Retrouvaille weekend in January, 2006, here in Tampa, FL. We did the six Post sessions on Sunday afternoons through february and march. By mid-March we were graduates. It was hard at first, we changed slowly over time. I was glad to have the Post sessions every Sunday to ground us, to keep us on track. And at first, I thought I needed to surround us with the friends we made at the weekend. For support. But then I found this board, and I found support here for the insecurities I felt as we were healing. The changes in the past year are unbelievable. We are really happy together. And we are a happy family now. I have to admit, I think I wasted a lot of my life being unhappy and holding grudges against my husband. Learning to communicate with him was the best thing I've ever done.
Thanks for posting this. My h and I are living apart, but spending a lot of time together. We're not officially "piecing" but we're in counseling and he seems to be leaning toward staying together (although he hasn't said that, I'm trying to read his actions). Do you think this would be a good time to bring up Retrouvaille? Should I wait until he says he is fully committed to working on the M?
Yes, I think if there is no OW in the picture, and he is interested in working on the marriage, then Retrouvaille can help you. Retrouvaille is not like Marriage Encounter, which I admit to having no real knowledge about, but I think that is for couples in love. Retrouvaille is for people out of love. It will help those in love too, but you don't need to walk in the door that way. My husband and I had no idea when we walked in that door that we would be reconciling. We just went with an open mind, we would see what would happen there. If things improved, OK, we would go with it. If not, we would make the call to lawyers.
All they ask of participants is to go with an open mind and a willing heart. If he can do that, then you are ready for Retrouvaille. And believe me, plenty of the people there, are only marginally able to say that. Retrouvaille will help you even if you do not decide to reconcile, because it solves communication problems. No matter what the couple goes on to do in the future, better communication and understanding between the partners will help them.
I'm sorry I locked up your thread. I had a lot to say and actually more then I posted since its been awhile.
Last Christmas, my wife did not give me a thing, not even from our 2 children, not even a card. Last year I got her a few things, including stocking stuffers. At that time she said that I thought we agreed not to get anything for each other. I said, you said that, I never agreed to that so don't feel guilty. Besides, it wouldn't feel so much like Christmas without giving you something.
This year I planned on just getting her one gift. My daughter said that mom got me something for Christmas from each of us. I assumed she got me one gift. Therefore, I assumed that meant one gift which she did do. But she also got me two movies, slippers, a pajama bottom that says New York Yankees and a massage machine. I was very surprised.
There still is not any intamacy, the only time we touch each other is to shake hands at church when everyone gives the sign and say, "Peace be With you'"
I bought her one thing, a Catholic Bible for Women. I hope she reads it. She said thank you but will see. A few friends of mine said that is a great gift when I purchased it about two weeks ago. In fact, one of them said, "You can only plant the seed in her mind, its up to her to water it so it grows and bears fruit." There were other highlighted stories in this book about Faith, Humility, Compassion, Love, Hope, etc. I hope some day she allows God to enter her Heart because then she will also find peace.
I forgot to add from my last post, that all the things I bought for her last Christmas, a CD, perfume, and things like that, she has never used them. She brought one of them back. I knew not to get her jewelry because she will not wear anything I bought her anyway (i.e. wedding and engagement ring, necklace, etc.)
I know many people would value a Bible as a very personal gift and treasure it, many others would not, and might see the gift as an attempt to change her in a way that she is not interested in changing. I don't know how your wife sees the gift. But if you think that it is not something that she is happy with for Christmas, I think you might consider giving her something else in addition. A gift certificate for a massage or a manicure is something a lot of women like. Many of the beauty salons offer those. Just a suggestion. It sounds like she made an effort to be thoughtful of you this year, I do not want to see you throw that away by giving her a gift that she does not value.
I have given gifts like that before. In fact, she has two gift certificates, one for a massage that I gave her one Christmas, and at another Christmas, one for a facial. Neither one has been used. Why? Who knows.
I have offered a few times that I would be home with the children so she could enjoy the experience without having them tag along. She does not want to do that either. I don't know what to think. I told her that she could do this on a Saturday and if necessary, she could do this when I don't have to work like when I take a few days off here or there. Nothing doing. I gave her and 20th anniversary gift with the card this past May, I received nothing. I feel like I am in a loose, loose situation in buying her gifts that she has no intention of using.
Last year, I gave her, I don't know the exact number, 4 or 5 stocking stuffers and 4 or 5 gifts under the tree. I made sure not to give gifts like jewelry, or love things because that would pressure her. Not one of them has been used. I know that for a fact because in going through the video's in the master bedroom, I was looking for a movie to watch one day, and found the CD I gave her, it was still wrapped in the cellophane so it was unopened. And the movie is her favorite Hitchcok movie, "Rear Window" with Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelly. One was returned because she told me so. One is still in the box unopened in the garage. The perfume I gave her is in the hall closet, unopened. It was a perfume she always used when she worked full time before we had children. The others, I don't remember what I bought her.
Putting up our Christmas tree a few weeks ago was interesting. My son found an ornament I gave her in 1987, the year we were married. It read, "Love is the Miracle of the Heart, 1987" She told my son sternly, "I don't want that thing up." My son said its an ornament so he said he was going to put it up and then my wife said, put it in the back of the tree where it won't be seen.
Another time, recently, my son happened to make a mess of taking all the video's out. He found our wedding video. He said, look at what I found? My wife got angry, grabbed the video from his hand, threw it against the wall saying, "I never want to see this thing again." Then left.
She has a lot of anger issues that she can't or is unwilling to get past them. I look at her when she is not looking or think of her when alone and feel sorry for her. She could improve her life so much if she would ask God for help. I know enough to know not to preach to her and tell her that though. I am worried about her soul though. If she does not forgive, how can she expect God to forgive her when her time is up?
My hope is that if she would read some things in the Bible and meditate on it like maybe how it applies to her, she will have a change of heart. I can't change a harden heart, only God can.
So should I get her another gift, now, this stage in the game? That would get her upset and she will tell me that I am doing that because she gave me more gifts then I thought and felt guilty.
Do I write her a thank you note??? I did say that when I saw the number of presents, "I didn't expect that, especially when Katie said earlier about a week ago that I got one gift from mom and the kids." Quite honestly, I expected nothing from my wife or the kids until my daughter shared that with me. I did not expect my wife to buy me a gift from just her to me. I expected just the one gift based on what my daughter told me. I knew I was going to buy her a gift but figured I will just get her one gift. Why waste my hard earned money to buy her something she has no intention of using because it came from me.
I wanted to get her something personal and so I gave her the bible, it was from me and the kids. Last Christmas I made her feel guilty because I bought her some things, and she gave me nothing, not even from the kids, so I didn't want to repeat the same mistake.
So what am I supposed to think with the signals she is giving me? Maybe she expects me to be a mind reader. But one of the traits of men, other wives (my neighbors and others) have told me this, men tend to be clueless. Well if the wives that I have come across, including my own have stated that men are clueless, then let them in on it and tell them.
