Harmonic Divergence

[fearless]

Thanks Lillie.

To be clear I haven't felt in the least that Cobra or NOP didn't welcome a different POV. I think that being "to the point" is great and I don't have an issue with that at all. I think the disclaimers are important and needed because I thought that is exactly what NOP skipped. His comment was that I was "instructing" Lord G to not snoop after I felt I specifically said in italics to take all I wrote with a grain of salt and to just read it and see if it applied. To the point would have just been to reiterate his opinion that snooping was called for in this case. ( and it very well may be, I don't really think I can state absolutely one way or another) But instead NOP specifically stated that I was instructing Lord G after I thought I had clearly stated that my comments were to be read as my opinion.

And I'm not trying to be overly dramatic. I just started to feel that my comments were read the way I intended and I really don't want to "waste" anyone's time and, I guess, especially my own:)

And please don't take my comment about Lord G consider where to post his story as a comment about people here. The only concern I had was about his purpose in DBing. This is a great generalization that will probably get me in trouble but in my opinion some of the people who post here have different goals than the typical DBing goal. To be clear, there is NOTHING "wrong" with that. No one should feel like they necessarily have to stay in a marriage especially after an affair. It's just that some of us felt strongly that we wanted to stay in our marriages and what we sought on the boards were people to help us stay grounded in our decision and not to give us the "how dare they", "I wouldn't stand for that", "you don't deserve that", etc. lines. After all I think everyone knows that we don't deserve to be treated badly. In our cases we were searching for people that could help us focus on ourselves and stay on track for ourselves to meet our greater goal of keeping the marriage intact.

I have ended up reading posts here because I know Burgbud, respect his insights and appreciate his POV which in many cases is different than mine. I've also followed Heather's sitch from a distance and our personal (thought not situational) similarities are interesting to me.

Plus I'm interested in never ever being in a dysfunctional relationship again and I think that proactively thinking about this stuff can reduce the chances of that happening. I am trying to strike that balance of being proactive and aware and just plain old living life!!

[Lillieperl]

The people in the SSM forum universally have the goal of saving the marriage. Affairs are absolutely condemned, and D is seen only as an utterly last resort. Sometimes one of the partners initiates a D and that gets the other person's attention. This forum is very pro-marriage (pro-relationship). I don't know about the others because I don't read them.

You wrote

I think the disclaimers are important and needed because I thought that is exactly what NOP skipped. His comment was that I was "instructing" Lord G to not snoop after I felt I specifically said in italics to take all I wrote with a grain of salt and to just read it and see if it applied. ... But instead NOP specifically stated that I was instructing Lord G after I thought I had clearly stated that my comments were to be read as my opinion.

How shall I put this... it was very clear that you were NOT instructing LG and that you were giving suggestions from your own experience. NOP's comments notwithstanding, you were VERY CLEAR. It was one person's reaction.

[Cobra]

Fearless,

From what I have learned during my time posting here it seems that all the various boards on this site really deal with the same thing – growing up emotionally. The different boards just deal with different problems that come up because of this “growth” problem, but IMO the solutions are all the same.

I’ve posted some in the past on the MLC forum and unless they’ve made some sort of evolutionary leap over there, I can say all they want to do is point blame on the walk away spouse and give hugs to each other. Not much insight to be gleaned there. Newcomers seem to be just that, trying to figure out if they even have a problem they should be working on, much less what it might be.

One consistent theme I have noticed here is that everyone seems to believe divorce is the last option, and even then it may only be a necessary step for some folks to get a dose of reality before continuing on their learning path. The end result is usually the same anyway whether they can learn their lessons in a year or in 30 years. Apparently Lil and I were married in a past life and here we are still trying to get it right! (Well, I’m ahead of her since I’ve got a ten year jump on her this lifetime! Ha! ……. Here I go to post this and I see my previous “old lady” beats me to it again!)

… in my opinion some of the people who post here have different goals than the typical DBing goal.

I’m not sure what you mean by this? (Perhaps this is one example of how you can improve your communication skills…. review for statements like this that make an implied meaning, then clarify the meaning.)

What other goals do you mean? If it is some of the advice that I give, or perhaps what Nop is saying to Heather, then you need to keep in mind that DBing is a general idea, for mass consumption, that cannot fit every relationship mix. Each couple has its own unique problems, denials, defenses and vulnerabilities that might require a different twist on DBing.

Furthermore, I see DBing as just one approach of many toward achieving the same goal, which in my mind is to ALWAYS keep the relationship together. Only after both parties have reached the point where neither is willing to compromise anymore, or lower defenses any further, or face their inner fears, is divorce the next best thing. But even in those case, I still believe it is possible to keep the couple together, if they were willing to do the work. The ONLY situations where I think divorce is inevitable are with people who have a serious psychological disorder. Those people need to locked up in the funny farm anyway (maybe they end up locked away in prison.)

[InherJourney]

I also glean some good insights from the MLC forum. It's a very dedicated group over there... lots of support for one another.

[NOPkins]

Hi fearless.

Quote:
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But instead NOP specifically stated that I was instructing Lord G after I thought I had clearly stated that my comments were to be read as my opinion.
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I was not commenting to you specifically, but rather to the general idea that snooping was bad.

No insult intended.

-NOPkins-

[Lord Grenville]

I thank each and every one of you for contributing so many points of view today. It helped shaped my decisions on what to do this evening.

I am going to need your support very much in the next days.

You see....it is almost confirmed that my wife is having an affair.

This morning she called and left a message on my cell phone that she was going to check in for the day at that time (8:45 a.m.) because in the evening a female art history professor from her department would be sharing the hotel room with her, and she might not feel comfortable talking to me while this professor was present. So she would call me on Sunday to let me know which train back to Boston she would be on.

This story sounded suspiciously like she was creating a scenario for me to not feel the need to call or talk with her tonight.

One detail about myself that I had not revealed yet is that I have been studying mediumship and psychic development for almost 15 years. Today, in yoga class, while we were in the relaxation meditation portion of the class, I was very calm and collected - not thinking about my wife - when suddenly I received an image and thought in my mind's eye that she was ingaged in an act of unfaithful betrayal at that moment. I dismissed that thought picture as worry and paranoia and went on with my day.

I had a nice evening out with a couple of friends at a local wine/espresso bar, and I was not feeling worried. But walking home, another pang of betrayal hit me, and I felt I needed to connect with my wife.

I called my wife on her cell at 10:15 PM. She did not answer, and I decided to not leave a message.

So I waited 15 minutes, and then I sent her a text message to call me saying it was urgent. She did not respond.

At 11:00 PM I looked up the phone number for her hotel and got connected through to her room phone. She picked up the phone and sounded a little surprised it was me. I asked her a couple of questions about the dog food recipe I was trying to follow that she left me. Normally she makes the batch of oats, ground turkey and vegetables for our dog, but I volunteered to do it this time.

I was doing my best to be friendly and happy sounding. When I shifted the conversation to ask about her day she seemed impatient like she wanted to cut our conversation short. She said she had attended three presentation lectures. When I asked what the three topics were, she stunned me by saying in a tired manner:
"Oh I don't know."
M: "you don't remember what the sessions were about?"
W: "I'll bring the brochue home and tell you about them tomorrow"
M: "Why don't you want to talk to me now? Can't you even tell me a little about your day" What was the first session?
W: I..I...well one was about photography"
M: "What were the others about"
W: "Um..pedagogy of teaching with technology" (something to that effect)
M: "And the third - what was that one about?"

She paused and I think she knew that I felt she was lying, and doing a poor job of it.

I then told her:

"I had a very interesting experience in yoga class today. As the class was winding down between 1:30 and 1:45, I felt very connected to you, and I sensed that something very significant was happening at that moment. Can you tell me where you were at that time?"

She said she was at a lecture by a Trudy Jacobi, which featured Quicktime Virtual Reality interiors of Versailles Palace. I jotted these notes down and was surprised when she didn't ask me what I had experienced!

She said she would call me tomorrow. And I said fine.

As I continued to prepare the dog food recipe, my mind was racing, as I had a sinking feeling that an affair was seeming more likely.

I thought about what to do for 20 more minutes and I realized I needed to express what I was feeling, and that if she was in bed with OM, I wanted to mess up the ambience of their evening.

I called my wife's room at 11:30 PM and she seemed a little annoyed that it was me. I told her that was afraid that I was going to have difficulty sleeping tonight.
W: "Why?"
M: "Because of what I saw today."
W: "What did you see"
M: "I saw an image of you being unfaithful to me, and it has upset me a lot."
W: "What are you talking about"
M: "Can you reassure me somehow that you have not been unfaithful?
W: "How can I do that?"
M: "Is Monica there?" (she is the art history professor sharing the room)
W: "Yes".
M: "Can I ask her one question"
W: "I don't think that would be appropriate"
M: "O.K. if you won't let me talk to her, you can reassure me now, by taking a photograph of her with your phone and sending it to me now.
W: "I am not going to do that now."
M: "Can't you see how your actions in the past weeks have been causing me turmoil? Do you not have any empathy for what you are putting me through? "I am simply asking for some reassurance, and you are not willing to help."
W: "I will talk to you tomorrow"...

Anyhow, I asked again for her to take a photo of Monica (to prove that she actually had a university-arranged roommate this evening) and she finally said she would do it in the morning. [for whatever that is worth] If I had been on a trip and she was irrationally afraid I was having an affair, I would have done anything to prove that it was not the case to put her mind at ease.

I know this sounds like I was creating a mountain out of a molehill, and I probably should not have made an accusatory comments at this point without any hard evidence, but my gut was telling me to express my fears, and her reactions seemed to confirm it.

After we hung up, I finally followed through on something I should have done two days ago when I first though about it. I check our detailed Verizon phone bill online, which shows all calls made on our two cell phones. At first I did not see anything out of the ordinary, but then a 115 minute call to a Larchmont, NY number, on an evening when she was babysitting our nephew apart from me. She spent the night at her Brother's/sister-in-laws that night, and made the call while they were out on a date.

I did a reverse number lookup, and I got the guy's name. And his address is just a few miles away from a college campus where my wife was part of Tufts University technology presentation that she attended on December 18th. And guess what? On that trip, instead of getting a ride back with her colleagues, when they finished around lunch time, she took a train into NYC, ("because she was so close to Manhattan, and she wanted to see the new Museum of Modern Art building) She ended getting back around 12:45 a.m. that trip. As I look at my planner from December, I see that our first visit to a marriage councelor was the next evening. And she opened up the dialogue that first meeting by saying: "I need to be honest with you..." All she was honest about was that she said she needed space. Well Yeah - you need space to have an affair - that's for sure.

So here I am. She will be returning to Amesbury tomorrow evening, and I do not know how it is going to shake down. I suppose I will ask her point blank about this guy from NY and whether she saw him this weekend.

I am stunned -
If she has been unfaithful, then right now, I honestly feel more like proceeding with a divorce than struggling for years to rebuild trust, waiting for the day when we might be back where we once were.

It is late, and I need the solace and healing that can come in the sleep state.

I will welcome any advice on how to proceed with tomorrow's confrontation with facts and truth.

Thanks so much for being here for me.

Marc

[InherJourney]

Marc, You did good. You uncovered a lot in a short period of time. You've broken out of denial. As I read your post, I was playing devil's advocate a bit, trying to think if you were overreacting and misinterpreting. And then you mentioned the 2 hr convo, and that for me was the deal breaker.

I suggest you take some time before you confront...think things through, collect yourself, gather more info, etc., but I feel you have the need to confront her now. I am not sure how you would handle that...just know that we support you here and wish you the best.

[Lillieperl]

Marc, I'm so very very sorry...

The clincher for me was when you said

If I had been on a trip and she was irrationally afraid I was having an affair, I would have done anything to prove that it was not the case to put her mind at ease.

This is the way an innocent person thinks.

[Lord Grenville]

Thanks for replying InHerJourney and Lillieperl.

I managed to get a little over 3 hours of sleep, and here's where I am at now:

I looked through all the accessible phone records going back until October, and I don't see her calling OM until after her Dec. 18 trip to Concordia College. But she did call him for almost two hours on two occasions and numerous times for short calls.

I don't have access to detailed records between January 23rd and now. Verizon says I would need a supoena to get those right now, but they will be available around March 2.

OM lives only 6 miles from Concordia College in NY, so he was probably at the conference on December 18. Maybe it was only an EA up until this weekend. My W was in NYC for 5 days and 4 nights, with a hotel room that was not going to shared with the other Tufts professor until last night supposedly, so I would find it hard to believe they did not turn it into a PA.

What I am wondering now, is if I confront her with the name of OM, his address and the phone record, and she says he is only "a friend", how in G-D's name do I believe her? I asked her at a counseling session a month ago, if there was anyone else she was involved with, and she said NO. Last week in counseling when she announced she wanted to stop being intimate with me, I expressed my worry that if her sexual needs were not being met, that she might look to someone else. Again she denied that possibility to me and our counselor. Our bond of trust has been broken completely now.

I am going to go out to a big box bookstore and try to find the books that NOPkins recommended, so I might start reading today.

Thanks again,

Marc

[NOPkins]

Hi, LG.

You did good even if your confrontation was a bit premature.

I am going to make a series of posts to you. I am going to keep them relatively short so that you can digest each on on its own merit.

First, decide if you want to stay married. Your decision. If you do, then read on.

The physical affair started sometime prior to her cutting you off sexually.

Since a confrontation without a full set of facts is inevitable, it is important to realize that she is going to lie to you, and when she tells the "truth" it will be partial and minimized. Examples: "Just a kiss" is probably a BJ. "Met for drinks" is probably sex in the hotel room. "I only had sex with him once", is really sex with him ten times. "Just a friend" is an outright lie and should be identified as such.

She will try to blame the affair and any ugliness preceding it, on you. She will make it all your fault. She must own her contribution to the state of the marriage at the time of the affair as you must also. You did NOT, however, cause her to have an affair. That is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT her choice.

Don't expect this to end with a single confrontation. She is emotionally involved with this guy as well as physically. Emotional entanglements normally don't end suddenly.

Expect threats and anger.

Own up to your contribution to the state of the marriage, but only your contribution. Let her own her part.

Listen to what your wife has to say. Keep the parts that are true, toss the rest. If she hits on an area of your part of the relationship that needs fixing, then apologize and fix it.

Don't tell her what your plan is, or your intentions as to what work you will be doing on yourself. She will use it against you.

Don't make promises. She will only use it as an excuse to continue the affair.

All the best,
-NOPkins-