Cobra, I wanted to let you know that I admire your integrity and strength of fortitude. I think you stepped up to answer to what you felt were your responsibilities when discovering that your then-girlfriend was pregnant. And you have continued to honor that committment for a long time and have sought to be more of a father even when your wife was pushing to keep you out of or denigrate that role.
I hope you aren't feeling too beat up about the love thing. A couple can have a great relationship that is based on respect and mutual goals. Love, in every relationship, at some time becomes a choice, not a feeling.
You've had it rough, because not only have you not had love as a foundation, there was also little to no respect.
I admire you for continuing to provide financially for your family, when it seemed that was all you were being used for. That's got to be painful.
And after all of that, you are still willing and wanting to work on developing a good relationship with your wife. That says a lot about you.
I don't agree with some of your methods, but I do understand that people don't easily give up what they have established as their territory. So, you are relegated to fighting for every scrap of family participation and influence beyond workmule with your wife. She grew up without a father, so she doesn't see them as an integral part of a child's life.
My concern is this. You are pursuing a worthy goal, but are using a poor method. You are continuing to play by your wife's "rules" of pitching conniption fits, cussing, and brute psychological force. Unless you want those attributes to continue in perpetuity in your marriage, I think it would behoove you to *consider* other, IMO, healthier methods of achieving the same goal.
So, far, I don't see you even considering the possibility that there might be other ways to accomplish your goals. The two choices are not laying down like a rug or becoming the same thing you despise in her.
There is a third, emotionally healthier way. If you can stop defending your current methods, you might discover that you can find a different tack that gets you to your goal with a little *less* damage to everyone involved, including you and your kids.
Thanks for the book recommendation. I know you always have something in that library of yours. I will look into the book (for some reason I think I may have this book, though I haven’t read it).
Mrs. NOP,
Thank you for stating a new thread and thank you VERY much for understanding what I have been going through. It is hard, in spite of trying to do what I believe to be the right thing, to my own unhappiness. It would have been much easier to just walk away years ago. I had the choice to do that but I didn’t.
I am trying to work on a better method. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can’t. Sometimes I think it better to be diplomatic and sometimes it gets me nowhere and I have to go back to pushing. I am wondering how much of my thoughts about W (which follow below) have an impact on the success of these approaches.
Update Went to counseling by myself last night. I have forwarded my recent comments on this board to the C, so she was familiar with recent events. We discussed how things were with the kids and I during the vacation and how they changed when we got back, how things just fell back into the old routines and fighting. She asked about the time W was putting into her work. I told her that she still put in long hours, to the neglect of the kids and that S9 gets the most upset over this. I even defended her, saying that as a new teacher I am giving her the benefit of the doubt that she needs a lot of tie to build her resources until a full year’s cycle of material is created. That could take her into the end of this year.
C said that she could see this but it seemed to her W was putting all her energy into work and not the marriage and that it was consistent with plans she stated long ago to become independent and then split. I agreed that W was doing this, that I believe she still had her $10k with the lawyers and she had built up another $8k in her bank account as a divorce war chest.
C also agreed with me that she did not think W wanted to D but while she wanted to stay married, she did not think W knew how to do so or could do so at this time. She said that she has seen W walk up to the line in addressing her issues, then back away rather than confront them. She understands that I am extremely frustrated but thinks I have done my work and at this point, W is holding things up.
I ran an idea past C that came to me last week. One thing that has always seemed peculiar to me is W’s aversion to any type of criticism. She absolutely hates to be blamed for anything and this seems to trigger a lot of her reactivity. Anything that is not a compliment is taken as criticism and she seems to feel blamed, even if I go to the extent of explaining that I am not placing blame. To me this is a clear sign of poor self confidence, or at least vulnerability over some key issue. Yet she claims to have high self esteem and usually does seem to exhibit this. People with low esteem but who put on a façade seem to worry a lot about what others think, and even though they try to cover it up, it still comes through. I told C that W does not seem to be like this. She does not seem to concern herself with what others think. In fact, she is so caught up in her own world that I feel she is quite clueless at times as to what others feel (especially me). So why the aversion to blame?
I told C that as the child parent to her mother, I think W felt a lot of responsibility s a kid, staying up to wait for her mother to come home from the bars, trying to get jobs to help buy food. Then her mother died. I think W may have felt she failed and was somehow responsible for her mother’s death. C confirmed that this sounded plausible, that studies show children internalize blame in this exact way. She said she would try to discuss it with W sometime. She also mentioned that regarding W’s ADD, using this as an excuse to continue to impose a messy house, missed schedules, losing things, etc., was not an acceptable excuse. People with ADD can cope but they must be willing to make necessary changes and that I should not accept W’s excuses for continuing her behavior. I told her that I agreed and had said the same to W, but she does not hear me, rather she thinks I am just placing blame.
C also said she would discuss the fact that she is extremely OCD (she said she was one of the worst cases her doctors had seen) and discuss how she reacted to others before she got on medication and learned to handle her condition. She believes W is OCD too but never discussed this with W before. I asked that she do so, that I thought it could be very valuable for W to see how others perceive her behavior. She said she would call W to see if she would come to IC.
Last night was fairly calm at home. W has been getting on to D13 about feeding the cats right at bedtime. D15 was supposed to feed them earlier in the evening but apparently did not do so. About 10:30 I heard D13 in the kitchen upset and feeding the cats. She said she did not care what W would do.
This morning I heard the TV going and found D13 up already. She said W had poured water on her in the bed to get her up. She said W had told her to get up to finish her math homework, but D13 said she finished it last night. I asked W about this and she said that D13 did not finish her homework (even though D13 showed it to me) and said that she had told her several times to wake up but D13 wouldn’t get up. So she poured water on her.
D13 also said that when she went to bed last night, she had her PC on, listening to music and W came in and knocked over her monitor and speakers, knocked her school books off her desk and told her to go to sleep. Things were still scattered this morning. Remember, W sleeps upstairs with the kids so she apparently heard the music and couldn’t go to sleep. D13 should have been in bed, but I know she was upset, fighting over the cats (W threatens to get rid of them if D13 feeds them at night).
D13 also said that she had told W that she hates her and is going to kill her. I don’t get too alarmed over this statement since it is typical venting for D13, but is does represent the anger she has in her. As I got out of the shower this moring, D13 came in the bathroom and said W had whispered to her that if D13 was going to kill her, she would kill her back. D13 said she replied something like she get W and W said “how are you going to do that, how, how?”
When I asked W about this, she said it was not in that context. I am not sure what happened, and I suspect W may have been trying to make light of the issue, but D13 was not in the mood to take it that way. An obvious stupid move on W’s part. I told D13 that W was just trying to exert control and power over her and not to get into it and that even though D13 felt those things, she needed to watch what she says. She says I do not know what a hell of a life she is living. I told her that I knew perfectly well, that I grew up the same under my mother. I hugged her and told her I loved her. She cried a while but then settled down and seemed to be ok as I left the house.
We had an argument two night before. I got mad at her for having this same angry, attacking mood when asking me about a math problem. I tried to explain it to her, but she got angry and said she would ask her teacher. Her attitude is what made me mad and what we argued over. She thinks I am angry with her over quitting TKD. I told her I was upset about that but her current attitude was what I was arguing with her about. Up until this morning, D13 was still upset with me over this. Hugging her seemed to put us over this conflict. She just called me at work to tell me she has a birthday party to go to this evening. It is not until 7:00 so I do not understand why she needed to call, except to reach out to me. So I asked if she was OK and to give a little comfort.
Now as for everyone out there who thinks I am an abusive husband, that I am the root of my W’s problems and that if I could just quell my anger everything would be ok, I have to tell you that you do not know what you speak of. You do not know what I live with. I appreciate all of you taking the time to read my thread and post your thoughts, whether I agree with them or not. But there is a world of good W could do if she would just level with herself about her anger and her issues. I cannot keep assuming responsibility for her problems. I did that for too long.
No one is telling you that you are at the root of your W;s problems and that if you just quit being angry, everything would be solved. Holy cr@p, why can't you hear what we are telling you (at least MOST of us are telling you)?
I consider it a HUGE problem that you and the C seem to have spent all of your time talking about your W! When did you talk about YOU, what you can do, how you feel, what's going on with you? Talking about your W when she is not there is just gossiping, and not productive AT ALL. Your session is to talk about YOU!!!
Telling your mom you hate her and want to kill her is NOT normal 13-year old venting! Where on earth did you ever get that idea? That kind of talk should not be permitted, but since you and your W freely call each other names, I guess your D figures it's okay. It's NOT okay. Expressing anger is okay, but not in such a cruel and destructive way. Your daughter is being raised to think that this kind of talk is normal and acceptable, and it flat fcuking is NOT. You are doing her a huge disservice sending her out into the world with these values.
You wrote
Quote: But there is a world of good W could do if she would just level with herself about her anger and her issues.
Yes, and if she doesn't...?
There is still a world of good YOU could do it you started behaving like a civilized, grownup adult man who takes responsibility for HIMSELF instead of continually crying, "She MADE me do it."
I know what you, Mrs. Nop, GEL, and Corri are saying about me not being the casue of my W’s problems. My comments are more directed at Cally and Bear (and maybe others, though I don’t remember who said what). I know I’m not the cause of my W’s problems.
C and I do discuss how I feel, why I react, what my FOO is all about, what I want to do, how long will I put up with this before making a change. She recommends that I try to treat W with compassion like you and everyone else says. She also knows that doing JUST that will not accomplish anything, that I do need to mix in some amount of “push.”
D13’s anger is a direct consequence of the fighting. I know that. In this type of situation, I do believe it is normal to see this in kids. It is not normal to see this in kids who are not in this situation. Yeah, I know it’s a problem. I also know that D13 does NOT want us to D.
So what do you recommend I say to W tonight about her wrongly accusing D13 about her homework and pouring water on her? “Ooops, I guess that was just an oversight, dear?” “No harm, no foul? D13 will understand you were just reacting?” Get real. If this goes unanswered, I can guarantee that W will start to use this tactic more and more. Speaking to her nicely will not stop her since there will be nothing to stop her. Her guilt or conscious does not play into it. Only the recognition of impending consequence. Just what do you recommend?
Quote: So what do you recommend I say to W tonight about her wrongly accusing D13 about her homework and pouring water on her? “Ooops, I guess that was just an oversight, dear?” “No harm, no foul? D13 will understand you were just reacting?” Get real. If this goes unanswered, I can guarantee that W will start to use this tactic more and more. Speaking to her nicely will not stop her since there will be nothing to stop her. Her guilt or conscious does not play into it. Only the recognition of impending consequence. Just what do you recommend?
NOP and I think you should *today* contact the proper authorities and get a temporary restraining order against your wife on behalf of your children.
Period.
No warning to her, no shouting.
Action.
No parent should tell a child that they will kill them.
Your children need you to protect them.
There should be consequences to your wife's actions. The only two options I see is you and your children leaving and getting away from your wife OR your wife leaving and getting away from you and your children.
Her poor behavior should result in her being the one who has to be inconvenienced.
Actually, I agree with the NOP's on the restraining order. Your W's behavior towards the children gets too far out of line....too often.
I think the difficulty with the restraining order though will be (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) that she lives in the same house. I'm wondering though if in an attempt to shield yoru children perhaps you could get some legal documentation written up that she is not to discipline the kids without you being present.
Still I'm not sure what that would accomplish....but something does need to be done about her anger with the kids. Talking with her...won't cut it, arguing with her...won't work, it'll just set her further back on her defensive heels.
I hate to say it, but I do feel something legal needs to take place, but I'm not sure what. You don't seem up for a separation (keeping the children with you)...but I'm wondering if that may not be what needs to happen, for her to see her behaviors simply won't be tolerated. If for no other reason, but to help protect your children.
It seems like such a drastic step I know, but I do still believe something drastic needs to happen. In many ways a separation (once anger cools over it) could be a way for you two to start again. You know...do the dating process again, perhaps learn to enjoy each other again....with the space of being able to go back to your separate spaces when necessary. Thereby removing the stresses you have IN the home.
Just a thought.
Personally the story about what she did to your daughter just mortified me. It reminded me of how my father used to wake me up when he'd find a wet wash cloth in the sink (a pet peeve of his I guess)....I'd wake up to that think smacking me right in the face when he'd throw it at me from the bedroom door. THAT was nothing compared to what your W did, and I ABSOLUTELY hated that and resented him for it. Sounds like your daughter DID already have her homework finished....and your W was WAY out of line. She seems to have anger issues, similiar in fashion to my Dads when he worked for the Gov. on jobs he couldn't talk about. I'd be the 1st person he'd see...and I caught all of his fury on his bad days (no I wasn't beaten) I was constantly yelled and screamed at for things I didn't deserve....that is with me still today. I don't want that for your daughter. Something does need to be done about your W's behavior. NOW
Re Cobra D13 also said that she had told W that she hates her and is going to kill her. I don’t get too alarmed over this statement since it is typical venting for D13, That needs to change and fast.
Not getting too alarmed???? You better. sounds like your D will grow up to be like your W! I hope not. I would send both of then to the naughty chair (Super Nanny show style)
The idea has crossed my mind but I think there is little evidence to support a restraining order since I did not see what happened. I also do not think D13 will or should testify that W threatened her. Remember that W did say the context that D13 told the story was not accurate, though I believe W is at fault for saying anything of this nature that could be taken out of context.
So far there has been no child endangerment. A restraining order will be the same as filing for D, which is what I have been tying to avoid. If I ever decide there is no hope, then D will be the obvious choice. If there is ever child endangerment, it will be a felony and W will go to jail. Remember she was arrested at the first of this year. One of the charges was child endangerment, though I knew there was no intention on the part of W. Yet D13 had a scratch. Although I petitioned to drop charges, they are still on W’s record. A second charge will not be seen favorably by the court. I convicted, she would automatically lose her teaching job.
My thought is to let thinks cool for a day or so, then talk to W to find out her full story. If she is calm, we should be able to make progress on this. Then we can talk to D13 to come to an understanding of what she, W and I are frustrated about.
I see this as just another example of our dysfunctional parenting as children of traumatized families. Most, if not all, of the arguments between W and I, and now with the kids, is an attempt to throw off stress and anxiety from some particular issues, and to avoid responsibility or blame in relation to that. I think Corri and Lil hit it on the head that respect for others, for rules, laws and standards of conduct is lacking. When W gets mad, anything goes because she is fighting for survival, not for some mere POV. This imbalance is correctable, IMO. Sure there are other issues like her ADD and OCD, but I still believe ALL those issues are correctable.
I also believe that you CANNOT love your way to impose discipline. I think it requires understanding and compassion but sometimes power and consequence.
I don’t understand why you are living in the same house with this woman. Don’t you want to find someone that you love and respect? Don’t you deserve to have that or do you feel unworthy of that for some reason.
I hope not. I would send both of then to the naughty chair (Super Nanny show style)