I ran across this post from Michelle on the "I'm Thinking About Leaving" forum. I haven't read the complete thread yet, but the original poster was in a situation we've all been all too familiar with - his wife wasn't getting that the marriage was in trouble.
Here are some excerpts:
"Although I can understand why your wife might have written off your complaints early on because she just believed that your commitment to the marriage would be steadfast and that all marriages have their ups and downs, for the life of me, I can't understand why she still holds that position. YOU DESERVE TO BE HEARD. Your heart has been screaming for validation and for her to care enough about you to look inside herself and undertake personal change for the sake of the relationship. It's terribly unfortunate that she has blamed everything on your depression. I simply do not understand how it is possible that you've been going to therapy with her and she still hasn't gotten it. I really question the therapist's skills. There is no way that your wife could be in denial about her role in the demise of the relationship had she been working with me or one of my DB coaches. Generally, when someone wants to save a marriage, which you claim your wife really does, s/he is willing to do just about anything to turn things around. If you read the posts from the great people here, you can see how willing they are to accept responsibility for things having gone awry. If your therapist(s) haven't helped her to look inside herself, you're wasting your money, you should go someplace else. You see, even if you end up divorcing, she will not have learned anything about herself and that would be a real tragedy. Divorce is a tragedy in and of itself, but it becomes totally senseless when people don't learn from their mistakes."
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For those of us who have been hitting our head repeatedly on the same marital brick wall:
Michelle writes:
"For a long time you've been trying to get your wife to hear you, to understand your unhappiness. For some reason, you haven't been too successful in getting through to her. I feel certain that since you are a gentle soul, you probably could learn a thing or two about being firm about your needs. I know you think you have been firm, but I agree with others who have questioned your actions. You have let your wife get away with blaming you for a long time. You blame her for that, but I think that if you had more skills, she couldn't have stayed so dense for so long. You would be more effective in helping her understand your pain. I know you don't believe that, but I have seen marriages change dramatically when people learn better relationship skills."
I'm a little flighty today...getting ready to go out of town next week for a hearing, and, this weekend, we're going camping.
In other words, I don't have a lot of time to post, and, what with the dying-dad issue, I don't think I'll be "firmly" re - re - re - stating my "needs" in the next week or so.
I think it applies to most of us on this forum including myself.
I have wondered if we don't run our issues through our heads almost continuously often leaving us with the false impression that we are actually conveying to our spouse the depth of the issues and/or misery with which we are dealing. I ran across a post (which supported that opinion) from a woman (on that same thread) whose husband left and she wrote,
"I noticed that you talked about how long you think things through before making a decision. My H is exactly the same way. Let me give you the other side of that coin, then. Many times, I think that he has abandoned an idea, never realizing that he is still "thinking it through." I think and talk all at once. He saves his words for when his thoughts are clear. Many times, by then, I am way on to another thing. I think that he is, too. For this reason I don't always comprehend the seriousness of what he said. Yeah, he said it, but then he didn't talk about it again. I guess I then pushed it out of my head, thinking that he would continue with it if it were still an issue. I see now that I missed a lot of clues along the way because of this. No one is at fault here for their own styles of communication, however, it IS up to us to figure out how to make them work together.
Also, in thinking so deeply about things, my H sometimes mistakenly thinks that he did discuss it with me. See, he will get an idea in his head, then run through the various conversation possibilities that will come of him telling it to me. He plays all the possible scenarios out in his head so that he can be ready for what will really happen. Unfortunately, by doing so, he sometimes decides what my reaction will be without giving me the opportunity to have it. Or, he thinks about it so much that he gets to the point that he feels he DID have the conversation. "
We often marry young and only start discovering how strongly we feel/think/react to some things long after we've made an oath/committment. I had saved this quote some time ago from a lady who posts on another board.
Too bad we usually don't have our own boundaries so strongly in hand before the relationship is cemented.
Here's the Quote:
" I also include other core agreements that me and my H have made. Basically, I consider anything that would lead to ‘chronic unhappiness’ for either of us a boundary in this marriage. It’s a pretty high standard, but I’ve found that aiming high has been a pretty good strategy.
Here are some of my boundaries:
- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am chronically unhappy and my needs are not to be met. That means I am not going to languish here in this marriage if there is going to be no effort to meet my EN’s after I’ve stated them and communicated them clearly. This marriage is a partnership. That means that if I have a problem concerning the marriage then WE have a problem concerning the marriage. I don’t expect him to accept my proffered solutions; but I absolutely 100% expect him to get on board and help me address any issues that I uncover whether they are bothering him or not. And, that works both ways. Just because it doesn’t bother me doesn’t mean that I don’t dedicate 100% of my resources to fixing whatever he doesn’t like. (This is essentially POJA.)
- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am not permitted to communicate freely about ANY subject or topic. That means that there is no topic that is a LB to bring up. That includes any ‘problems’ or ‘issues’ that I have with the marriage and how I would like to be treated. Obviously, I am willing to negotiate when and how such topics are discussed. But, either we find some way to communicate about difficult or sticky issues or the partnership will break down.
- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am abused in any way. I am not willing to be yelled at, cursed at, called derogatory names, physically manhandled, threatened, intimidated, financially starved, sexually abused, or any other type of abuse. My mental and physical health and well being is put before the needs of this marriage at all times. It is never, even once, OK for my health and well being to be threatened by this marriage. I draw strong boundaries around abusive behavior because I simply have no tolerance for it. Not all the boundaries I draw include leaving. For example, if I’m being yelled at, then I will simply remove myself. Other types of abuse would generate a much stronger reaction.
- I will not remain in a marriage in which retributive or vengeful behavior is used on EITHER side. That means that constructive ways of dealing with problems and issues WILL be used. I am completely uninterested in playing ‘head games’ with my husband. If something is bothering either or us or makes us angry, I expect us to use conventional communication methods to convey that information. Engaging in ‘tit for tat’ type of behavior simply drives me insane. My FOO was really accomplished at this. I put up with it for 20+ years. I am unwilling to bring that nonsense forward into the rest of my life. (This is essentially Radical Honesty and also incorporates eliminating DJ’s.) I refuse to guess what’s wrong with him. Nor, do I ever expect him to figure out what I’m thinking. If it’s relevant, then it’s communicated in direct, respectful, English.
- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am not the primary partner. That means that, while I don’t expect him to compromise his core beliefs and sacrifice himself on my behalf, I come before his mother, his job, his friends, the dog, the cat, the hamster, the fish, the lawn, the housework, etc. When we make marital decisions there are exactly two (2) votes. In laws don’t get a vote. Friends don’t get a vote. The latest Gallup poll does not get a vote. This is not a marriage by committee. I’m not going to compete. Thankfully, affairs have not been a problem in my marriage, but this would also cover that possibility. This also addresses getting the 15+ hours of time together each week. I’ll admit that I’m pretty ‘high maintenance’ and I like a lot of time. The way it works in our relationship is that I get first choice of his time and then everyone else gets to share him after that. It works out pretty well, though. Since I’m confident that I won’t be put second, I can usually afford to be pretty easy to ‘convinced’ to share. (offer me a deal which I can be enthusiastic about).
All these agreements (boundaries, “hills”) do set a very high standard for our marriage. They’ve worked very well for us over the years. I’d say we’re very happy and both seem to rate our martial satisfaction very high."
End Quote.
You know, reading through it again, instead of thinking of it as an individual boundary, it's more of a absolutely-needed *foundation* for marriage. Anything less foundationally leaves us with wildly tilting marital walls, cracks and tumbling down buildings.
Another good web site. Lots and lots of questionnaire's for the W and H to use to evaluate where they are and where they want to go with the M.
I have wondered if we don't run our issues through our heads almost continuously often leaving us with the false impression that we are actually conveying to our spouse the depth of the issues and/or misery with which we are dealing. I find deflection and "I am different and entitled to my own opinion" to be the 2 huge problem.
The first quote where the woman describes how she thinks while talking whereas H thinks it all through first is EXACTLY how H and I communicate. It leads to such confusion. I say something off the cuff hoping to engender discussion and enlist his help in my thinking out loud process and he thinks I have totally made my mind up about something, therfore my whimsical thoughts get taken seriously . H will say something - which as far as he is concerned is a fully mature decision - and I will take it as a starting point for debate. Which usually pisses him off royally - which in turn does the same for me as I cannot understand why he won't engage in debate and why he is so defensive. Crazy.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Another good web site. Lots and lots of questionnaire's for the W and H to use to evaluate where they are and where they want to go with the M.
You pegged it in one!
Quote: I find deflection and "I am different and entitled to my own opinion" to be the 2 huge problem.
Want to post some conversational examples? So we can pick it apart and give you our unprofessional opinions?
Lou, when you have been together with someone as long as you have with BB (NOP and I are coming up on 30 years together) both of you can get into conversational/relational ruts. One way to get out of those is to start changing what you are saying/doing.
