Starting a new thread, yet again...new phase. I'll stick to this from now on. My sitch: H and I: 30s Update: Exploded in Oct 05; slow patching to now; last week found out that he had EA (with little physical) with coworker; in M, I was very controlling, demanding, uncaring, disrespectful, H withdrew and disengaged, also very angry and miserable in his job that brought into our M...a catch 22 (which came first??); last week, H said "ILYBNILWY" and "In Love with Being single"; clear that H sees me as demanding, congrolling, angry; we both came close to throwing in the towel, but neither did. We still live together.
I made a vow to stop "trying" and to let it be. To set it free and see (Dr. Seuss!!).
To date, we've had no R talk after Wed's explosion. Just a short statement where I lovingly told him that if he felt more comfortable sleeping/staying elsewhere (or wanted me to) or wanted to do other things, I would be happy, b/c I cared about him. I didn't want him to feel like my caretaker, he did that so much already. He initially withdrew like stepped on a skunk, but then he really turned around and said "Thank you, sweetie."(180 for him) Another 180 for me: I dropped the subject.
Friday night he said he needed some space and went out with friends and stayed in town with a friend that night. No questions from me. I was understanding and upbeat and had a fun chat. He sounded down/angry, but I didn't react, I let him be. Of course, that night, I fell apart. It was good, it forced me to think, and to get to yet a new level in understanding this R and what I need to do.
My thoughts on H: I think he doesn't leave the M because he hates being the one to make the final and big decisions in our M, hates being the one on the block pulling the trigger. Yet, he doesn't want to committ because he is not in love, wants his space and wants to be single. He has friends, fulfilling job, etc. He seems happy, but in things I read he is still sad and pained. Natural. He does not want to hurt me by leaving when I'm not ready (he said he wants it to be mutual), I think he's just waiting it out, not really trying but staying here so one day I'll get tired and can see that "tihs really didn't work out, time to kill it." I care about him, and came close to giving him that, but realized I'm not ready to throw in the towel. But, on more than 1 occasion, he said that he's not ready to give up either, even when we had our last explosion last week...when I was ready to walk out. He did not stand in my way, but still claimed that he was confused, said yes to actually thinking this might work out...that he saw changes in me. I have no idea if he's just not ready to walk out, or if he's just waiting for me.
Me: Lots of new thoughts.
During our last explosion over the coworker, something in me clicked. I felt like I was floating above the scene of US-in a way like dying. I felt so sad for us. I thought of what each of us were when we got married, and all our hopes of what we wanted to be as H and W. I wanted to be a good W. I wanted to be happy, supportive, caring, gentle, giving, respectful--I was all of these things. Then I changed to just the opposite...I became disrespectful, critical, mean, controlling, demanding, insecure, panicked, always dissatisfied--feeling H become disengaged with the misery of his job. H wanted to take care of me (in nurturing ways), to give me his all, to still have the sparkle in his eye, to grow with me, he held honesty so high in the sanctity of our M, he never lied--he was a great H. Then he became withdrawn, resentful, put up walls, miserable, hurt, lied for fear of my reaction and as an escape from me, has a whole set of friends unknown to me to escape from me, hated coming home, always fearful of me, always trying to walk the minefield that is his M.
Somewhere along the way, we lost our way. I saw 2 people who wanted more but got chained by fear, insecurity, mistrust, resentment, loathing, a need for each other that we took elsewhere or shut off. Last week in our fight, I saw what we were, what we became and what we had together. We still love each other intensely. But, during our M we both watched as we stomped on our M, kicked it, ignored it, feared it, and finally, last week, lit the match to torch it. I realized that I had spent 4 months saving something that needed to die. What do we have left in the ashes? A piece of paper that says we're married. In my mind, I pulled the cord to unleash the paper, to open box that we held ourselves in--we can't stay in the box...we can only climb out and grow or walk away.
For all practical purposes, we don't have a M. We're not in one. It's a choice, and that's the best way. For some bizarre reason, I feel hopeful. I realized that my efforts in the last months were STILL expectant, and never really moving to what I now see as the final phase--letting go.
This weekend, I cut the chains that held me to a W I never wanted to be. I climbed out of the insecurity, pain, resentment and saw H's pain clearly. Whatever happens, I don't want to be that person. I see, through Hs eyes, that person. I see how he feels like a failure, spied on, judged, criticized. I want to go back to who I was, for me, and for H, whatever time we have left together. That is not who I am. I'm not insisting on being his W or his friend...it's not up to me to decide what he needs. I can only be me.
All this time, I had expectations of H and how he was when he was 'in love' with me...but I finally sat down to think of what I felt and how I was when I was 'in love.' Am I in love now? No. When I was, I loved him simply, in whole, without question, trusted in him and his love, was happy to see him or hear his voice with no expectations, had no insecurities about his love. So, I have to take this time to pull back, let go and see if I can get there again. While so much of our research as we DB tells us that the phase of 'in love' is not realistic, there are core parts of it that are important. Can I love H with the new pain, can I understand, can I believe in him to be the person I loved once? Can I wait for him? Am I ready to give him what he wants? Can I be what he needs?
So now, I just pull back. I don't call or expect anything. I don't ask questions. I'm sincerely happy when he comes home. In ways, I see him with new eyes, there is no scoring of "how far have we come this week." Just a nice day with laughs. I try to listen and offer help, to care. Yesterday, he came home and was distant, scared and a little angry. He warmed up very quickly when I just acted happy to be with him, a dear friend. We had a great afternoon of listening to music, laughing, etc. We went to B-ball game and had fun, watched a movie and went to bed. He is still aloof and no affection, and neither do I, unless I really feel like it, but with no expecation. I am happy, do things for me, enjoy my life. I feel stronger emotionally and physically...oddly, with things so close to the end, I feel good.
In the past, H has come back to me (we've gotten back together 2 times in 14 years of knowing each other) only when he had space and I let go. It's also the time that I needed to be strong, to test my own love. I know H is now aversed to giving me anything that I expect/demand--and that probably also means working on the M...so I won't expect/demand it, or even try. I think it's the space we need, to whatever end comes. I'm not thinking of the outcome...I'm just letting go, being me, and being good to a person I love and care for deeply.
Let go, let God. I think there are many more pages yet to write in the book.
Love where you're at. Detached but not disconnected. Love how you're focused on being, not outcomes.
I'm on another side of the fence at the moment. Not sure how relevant it might be to you, but for a long time I felt I was just "being" true to myself, just living and let live, but recently saw it was more like I was still waffling without any clear direction or intent.
Am now refocusing on things I need to do in order to live as I desire. Being true to myself and others and achieving my outcomes.
I so admire, respect, and feel for you looking upon your situation as a test.
Thanks for the post. I was reading yours this morning, and very insightful. I liked what you wrote...the part about being what a person needs and not what you think they need. I'm not assuming H needs anything from me. I love him deeply, but it's time for each of us to find our way out of this. Though I felt betrayed with the EA, I also finally understand, with clarity, how H feels about me and the way I made him feel. I feel badly, but I feel that even until last week, I made him feel the same way. Boiled down: he feels trapped, boxed in, unwanted and tortured with me. Sounds rough, but that's what it is. The best thing he knows to do is to shut down. He admitted that his walls are really high and he loves me in a guarded way.
The remedy? No demands, expectations, questions, etc. Complete freedom. Kinda hard when you're not separated, and the thought to do so crosses my mind each day. Should I? I want to, and know that H would feel good too, but then I don't think it's right. I don't mind feeling like the M is non-existent right now. It's freeing and makes me accept and see things clearly.
It's sad. Much of the time, I can see a way out. Though I feel so distanced and detached, my gut still says that this will work out, sometime in the future. Then, I see how totally aloof, unaffectionate, detached he is from me and I don't know if it can come back. You know, in our 14 yrs of knowing each other I felt the same way twice, and we came back to each other so wonderfully. So, I guess my gut feelings are based on the past.
I feel that H has to totally erase his conceptions of me in his mind. That's hard. It took me a LONG time to erase it from my mind over things he did in the past.
My old (1 week ago) self would have gotten on task to think about how I could do this....this time, I just know that the best answer is to be myself, the person I used to be. Still stay a friend, caring and loving.
It may be that this is all he'll ever want.
I admit, I still think of what he's thinking, wanting, etc. But, I let go of the control of that...the things I could do to get him back. The answer is simple: I can't do anything. It's not my place to. It never should be. He is still in a lot of pain, it's a miracle that he's still living with me. That's how gracious he is. I need to let him go to have his space, his anger, his errors, his thoughts.
For now, I will focus on me. Your advice is great. I have made a list of goals for ME in 2006. I will go after these. I will continue to share with H in whatever capacity he wishes. Each time I feel I want to totally pull away, I remember the times I made him feel hated, and he stayed, committed and never returned the pain. That is unconditional love, and I want to return the same. Not pushy, trying too hard, or expectant. Just giving. No strings or guilt attached.
In the beginning of this mess, I read a quote by Madonna: "Choose 1 person and spend your life trying to love them unconditionally." We throw that term around so much, unconditional love, and I wondered why she said to just choose 1 person. It's not until now that I realize how hard it is. Yet, also how unavoidable.
Here you have another friend to walk with for awhile, Always. Looks like were headed in the same direction and who knows how long the road will be.
I'm going the distance for her and for myself. I've now committed to giving it all I've got, without being inconsiderate or careless of my own needs, for another four years. That is, until our youngest child finishes High School, because this is what I feel is right for me.
Hi there, friend! No time limit here. Not yet anyway. I figure my gut will tell me when it's right. Right now, it isn't, because I STILL, with all the work in the last 4 months, have not really tried. I can now clearly see how I need to really let go and understand his pain and mine. I never let him feel this phase, maybe for a month or two, but I always pestered him about US. He does best when I completely back off.
Oh, our story of 14 years is a good one. Each time, he left (we were young and in college)but I pushed away too , and years later, by some miracle, he reached out in love. We've both hurt each other, grown up together, loved each other--it's the most intense, emotional and crazy beautiful R each has ever had. In all that time, we've never loved another, even now, H said that I was the person who meant the most, the one he would love the most, how he would never be as crazy and in love with another or marry another.
I forget that I know him really well, too well. I've spent today thinking about things from his view. I think these past 4 months he has been testing things, seeing where our M will head. He is not willing to give it a try for very real fear of me not ever changing. He thinks I can change in small ways, but not to what I should be and he needs in a R. He has always been prepared to give unconditional love. So, now, it's my turn.
From his view, I see each sad mood swing, expectation, question barrage, test, frustrated moment as in his mind "she's really not changing--I won't commit...I won't open up to be in love again" Of course, someday, I will have to be allowed to be pissed without it setting a reaction, but that will come slowly...it's the damage I've done.
So, given our past, who knows when things will resolve itself. All I know is that I truly feel, for better or for worst, we are meant to be together. Tbis time, let's try to do it right.
BUT, that's my feelings today...who knows what the future holds.
I love the new thread. You have had an amazing change in your outlook and attitude. You sound conficent and strong, just like I know you are.
It's late and I am exhausted and heading to bed, so I will post more thoghts tomorrow, thought you seem to be much better off then I am, so not sure what I have to offer you.
Also.....don't forget.....our accountability. I am starting WW's tomorrow. So, let's say next weekend we log in our exercise and our healthy eating....as well as any indiscretions. Sound like a plan?
~SE
I'm moving on...at last I can see...life has been patiently waiting for me.
Me-32 WAH-35 DD-11 DS-4 H left 11-03 Piecing- 12/04 WAH again- 03/07 Married 12 years Divorce final May 15, 2007
Thanks, SE. Update: H and I worked out this morning, nice. H came home at 7pm (worked all day today), actually greeted me with a smile (after scaring me to death--I had the Nanophones on--he's happy that I'm using the gift). In conversation, he went through what he had been doing for the last 2 hours (with neighbors) and all that he did at work, when he ate lunch, people that saw him at work, and that he had to go back in (to avoid working late during the week). I acted disinterested in his timing details, just asked things that a friend would ask...I'm not asking for a report to be suspicuous. Nice that he offered, but I don't want him to think that I need to know what he does at work to be controlling or demanding..I just wanna get away from acting like I need it.
When he left, I said "have a fun time" and he said "yeah, right, with work..." I was happy in tone, wanted to convey that if he was doing whatever, I don't care. I'm not living in a fantasy land and he doesn't need to work at creating one. We can all just relax.
After all, I've let go! Was a nice day (with all of 1.5 hours of interaction--but we're starting slow, right?). Had a nice day myself...just relaxed.
No, I'm not tracking progress or baby steps in expectation of results, but writing things down so I can remind myself that things are nice, to let it be, and that I'm doing well in this new phase.
H got home and was funny, upbeat, more than he's been in months. Could be that the guilt is off his shoulders (I always had a nagging feeling that much of his reservation was guilt). I never thought I was a gal with good instincts or gut feelings, but it turns out I'm not too bad at it!
We had some space, he puttered around and I was in bed. Then he came in, joked, talked and told me about his night. I was supportive, asked questions....THEN...he very kindly said "Thank you so much for being calm and supportive to me during all this" I didn't know if he meant the M or his increased workload in 2006--so I asked "with work?" he said "yes" I nearly fell out of my bed...a THANK YOU for doing something RIGHT? Not just anything, but the ONE THING that he needed the most and felt he never got from me--not just calm, but SUPPORTIVE even...dang, I could win a prize of some sort. But, instead, I calmly said, "of course, I care for you and want to see you do so well, and I'm proud that you work so hard and of your success--always knew you could." Left it at that. He seemed to have some walls down and I didn't jump in. Big 180 for me. Also, the old me would starting thinking of doing things to be ULTRA-supportive...but for now, I'm letting it be.
This morning, we had a peaceful time together. I have a slightly worrisome Drs appt today (told him last night that I would have the car back by 5 if he needed--I meant, but did not say, for going out...he said no, and I dropped it--wanted him to know that I am OK with anything he does and he can relax and not lie or be afraid--his decision to feel that way, not mine). He remembered this morning, asked if I was nervous, and asked me to call him afterwards...WHAT??? For the last 4-5 months, he HATES when I call--his response is obligatory at best.
So, I think I handled things well--and it was NO effort at all. I am trying to be be how I would treat a dear friend. Before, I would have JUMPED into any vulnerability or walls being lowered with H. I was always trying to push us towards progress...Now, I'm not. He peeps over his walls every once in a while, and all I can do is show him that it's OK--I won't come attack you. I'm OK with you feeling safer in the wall...for now or forever. Also, being happy in my own life shows him that he doesn't need to worry about me now...I'm doing just fine.
Update: I called H after Dr. appt. He didn't sound distracted, 100% engaged, really cared and said he was worried all day but didn't want to call and worry me. I made a point to tell him it meant a lot to me, and it was sweet. Also, 180 for me, I had NO expectations of what he should do to show support, so whatever I got was great. Turns out, it was more than I got when I was demanding. Simple, huh? Treat someone with respect, and they actually WANT to give.
H called for his nightly check-in. We chatted, again, more than the obligatory 30 sec. He said he "wanted to tell me when he was coming home." I said "thank, that's nice of you, but don't worry about it. You come home when you need, no worries" in a caring tone. Again, letting him know that there is no leash/expectations. He sounded caught off guard.
At home, we had a nice convo. He asked lots of ?s of the Dr appt. He talked about work and really vented (opened himself up) and I listened. He brought up a statement I made about him being paranoid in the past, and I apologized. I said that I chose wrong sentiments, but felt that he let things bother him so much that he didn't see the good at times. I said I was proud of how he handled things. He was pissy/hurt, but I didn't react. I just said sorry, but didn't go overboard with sorries either.
I didn't question his going back to work. Actually came over to give me a kiss on the head...WOW. Said he was happy that I was OK.
Again, I was happy at my statements and attitude. The letting go and being the old me is nice. I feel at ease, and I guess everything comes from there.
Last night, H came home again, LATE. After 1 week of being good about "detaching and letting go" I was insecure as to where he was, etc. But, I calmed down. H came home, and actually reached out in bed to touch and gave a kiss. He again said he was glad I was OK (after Dr appt), and said he was sorry about not being there with me and being out in the evening. I said that he WAS there, I could feel his concern and care, and that was a wonderful feeling. I thanked him for this.
It seems to me that while I'm in this phase, he's testing a lot. Like peeping out of his walls and throwing a few things out to see whether I'll jump and attack. First, last night he tested me with something that I used to "accuse" him of, being paranoid about work things and letting it consume him (which did happen and really wedged in our M). Of course, I handled it VERY poorly, and I apologized and explained. He was a little POed, like he was finally getting his frustrations out. I did not make him regret it, argue him, defend, just said sorry and explained what I wished he had felt for HIMSELF...did not drag our M into it. I think it went OK. I was not moody or panicked. I did not let it drag into an R talk.
Also, last night, he apologized for venting angrily about work, said it felt good though, he was happy. I said I was happy to listen to him and glad that he vented. Then, another test...he mentioned that a month or so ago, he vented angrily and I left the room, and later confessed that it made me a little scared when he did that, like he was going to go back into his terrible moods, etc. Last night he brought that up and apologized. I said I no longer felt that way...I saw his venting as just that, and was happy to share. He said it was nice to share with me. He also opened up and talked about how stressed he was, over the last months, over us and this work situation, and venting yesterday was nice. I said I didn't want him to be stressed about us anymore, it was inevitable, but I cared for him and only wanted him happy, whatever he needed. He said he knew that, and cared for me too...then got defensive and said it was late, didn't want to talk R. I said I wasn't about to, and had not for a week and had no desire to...just making a statement. I ended it by telling him that I respected him a lot, and how he handled everything he was going through. He made a comment that he was tired to picking up after people that [censored] on his life (pretty obvious he meant me). I didn't bite, just was quiet and said I'm sorry you have to do that.
For the first time, I can see his comments as venting, expression of rightful anger and frustration. I think he's testing to see if he can vent about US, and not have me flip out. It's OK. Whatever happens will happen, and all I can do is control how I react/act. That, in and of itself, I am seeing now, makes a HUGE difference.
This morning was nice. He is super stressed about a presentation. usually he gets snippy and withdrawn. I tried to make him laugh, stayed out of his way...and he finally cracked and laughed...and reached out for a kiss. Nice.
I'm glad that letting go, and reverting back to how I was is helping. If nothing else, at least he is less stressed and so am I. At least it can get us to a clear point of calm where we can make decisions. Like I said before, I'm sick of the negative cycle our M was in...I just want to pull back, take control for only what I can, and let the rest sort itself out. Honestly, he's more engaged in the M with little things he says, etc. than ever in the last months.
I realize that the coming weeks is going to be mostly a test, and lots of venting by H, much of which will be hurtful. I'm hoping it will, I'm sick of him being too nice to me to care for my feelings. He says that it's all he cares about. I don't blame him for testing--after living with someone so controlling for so long, you wonder if it can really change. He has gotten to the point of 0 tolerance.
