Sorry for your ongoing troubles, but really, and I think you know this, you cannot own 100% of this problem.
But, you can officially stop disregarding what I say because I may have flushed my own marriage down the toliet in the past two days.
Things were a bit tense as we were all sick and in a moment of weakness I snooped and discovered that she was e-mailing the a former EA again pretty heavily, innocent stuff, but it still stung especially on Valentines Day and in light of our current tension.
So, in a fit of pure insanity I decided to tell her, as we were going to bed, that I snooped and was hurt by what I saw. Well, she went stone dead ice on me. No emotion, just that she was dissapointed that I chose to invade her privacy. I feel pretty quickly back into old ways, and ultimately pretty much begged her to even feel sorry for me that I was hurt. No dice. I did apologize for getting emotional and just sent her an e-mail outlining what I think I've learned from the incident but making sure that she knows that if we are going to work this out it will be on her terms and timetable and that I can only try to better control myself.
Nickel, Betsey, What am I still misssing? Do I simply have to accept that she will always need another guy in the wings. I think the most painful part of her messages was the resounding abscence of anything to do with me. She'd talk about going to the movies with the kids but not mention that I was there, she'd talk about herself and my son being sick, when I was laid out flat myself. She even did a stream of consciousness narrative of one of her days and even the dog got mentioned but not me. Why am I so worried that she wants me completely abscent and unaware of her relationship with him?
I thought that all of our progress might allow me to bring this up and get some reassurances or something (she has mentioned that she now recognizes that their past interactions were destructive to our relationship) but I fear that I've just put her back on the defensive and she's fortifying the walls again.
I tried to just process this on my own, but I could barely look her in the eye. How do I get away from my hurt without simply pushing her away?
The rollercoaster is back in service!
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
I don't have a well thought out answer just yet, but what I want to have you mull over (and yes mull is my new favorite word) is this.
"The next time I feel like I need to snoop, I will NOT do it, instead I will go have an emotionally honest conversation with my W about those intense feelings. I do not expect her to alleviate them, but instead of acting out, I will share with her my fears. All I'm here to do is share with her. If she want's to get defensive and take it as me blaming her or her doing something wrong I will recognize that those are her emotions that I am not responsible for. All I am here to do is share in an emotionally honest way. I'm not asking her to do ANYTHING except listen. She needn't take any action regarding them, nor does she even need to respond."
But I'm coming back with more, cause I have more to give you on this whole scenario.
O and O.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
I think you are on to something, but to be honest, that is what killed me last night. I wanted her to make me feel better about what I read, and instead she let me know that we've been over this too many times, that she was confused about him for a period of time but realizes that it was only a fantasy and that she has a right to e-mail whoever she wants without my snooping through it.
I just wanted her to say she loved me and that she was sorry that she hurt me, but I do know that this is exactly my problem. It is so easy to preach to others on the board about not having wants/expectations, but boy is it difficult to do. I've spouted the "right or married" choice so many times here, but I think what I am struggling with is the fact that I'm terrified that even one misstep will send her back to Mr. Unconditional Acceptance. I know that she has/ is not having an affair, but she really did say she loved this guy (to him and me) when she dropped the bomb last june , and I just can't seem to find my inner peace about him.
Nickel, maybe you can elaborate on how you reconcile, in your own mind, your divorcing XH and now hoping that he can put that past him and try again. I suspect that for my W there is some real ambivalence and guilt around her contact with this guy and I know that she blames me for having created the conditions under which this whole situation started. It feels to me like if she can prove to herself that they are just "very close" friends, that it will make what happened go away. She has never copped to anything except confusion, the most I've ever gotten is I'm sorry IT hurt you. Why am I so caught up in wanting more? What have I been doing that keeps her guard up with respect to this?
I know I'm babbling and stealing this thread, an old habit of mine.
Still, I really want imput on how to reconcile my need for some kind of resolution with respect to the OM, with my very sincere acknowlegement that my methods for achieving this, short of stuffing it down inside, have really tanked. I also sense that she is willing to throw in the towel over this issue, whenever I go there, I can almost hear a door slamming shut.
I like posting feedback better than questions, thats for sure!
And now we're real time people.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
John_p you always challenge me with your questions...but as Betsey mentioned before I think that's what makes you be able to help me see past or even see some things that I never would have been able to and vice versa. I'll do my best here for you, but I need some more time to think it through. You're challenging me with a question I hadn't even asked myself yet...or maybe I had asked, but I just hadn't answered it. I promise I'll be back tonight after I've thought it through.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
There is a VERY similar conversation going on Slowly's thread on this same forum..check it out. The issue of being emotionally honest and the risk of "chasing" the partner away vs. zipping the mouth at all costs and the risk of losing your vision of a M (and undoing some of the GAL, PMA esteem-builders that DB and other M reconciliation techniques offer).
It seems that many of us are stuck here lately....lots of interesting techniques and stories being shared on that thread.
Yes, I've been into that thread a few times today. You're post there was not only brilliant, but also enlightening. I appreciate you sharing your own expeiences. I'll go to say that Betsey directed me to it as I had been facing something similar in my dealings with my XH and was stuck in this R that was really going nowhere fast.
If you can picture a visual. I was stepping to the left, so he could step forward, then I took a step forward just before he took a step to the right, then I took a step to the right so he could take a step backward, then I took a step backward so he could take a step to the left. Round and round we'd go, carefuly maneuvering out of each other's way so not to create conflict...all the while watching everything we had in the middle just stay in the middle...no mention of it...ever...we were getting along fabulously on the outside, but could sense that we weren't really connecting on the inside.
So, on my own thread I took a long hard look inside...to determine what it was about the situation that I had that made me soooooo uncomfortable, angry, and resentful. And I asked "who exactly am I resentful and angry at? him? me? the dog?" Trust me, Betsey and I spent DAYS on this. DAYS I tell you...with me continuing to be skeptical of what she was telling me.
For the life of me I couldn't picture the conversation going any differently than it had in the past. All I kept thinking was "I've done this before, I hope he reacts differently...I want him to _____." Ahh, but this time, when I got to that thought i realized the fatal flaw of my approach. And this is where I made careful note. "why did I want to talk to him about this?"..."Why did it matter?"..."Why did I care so much about what he was going to think or feel?"...and most importantly.."why was I even speculating on his response?" If I"m speculating on his response it's because I'm trying to counter something I'm anticipating him saying...so if the reason why I'm going to go talk to him about how I feel is to gain genuine understanding, why do I even care to imagine what his response might be?
I realized something, "I was anxious about it and I thought he was my ONLY solution to alleviating it." So before I would continue to go to him hoping his response would be something in particular...that there was only one response that would make it all better for me. Guess what...never happens because my approach is such that I believe he senses I'm putting him into a trap...he believes I'm setting up the conversation to go the way I want it to go and if I really look back, I was LEADING him into what I wanted him to say.
So instead...I approached him with my feelings...I even told him it was a little scary for me to do so, not because I thought he would hurt me, but because it's so new for me that I haven't gotten fully comfortable with it. I told him how I felt and was not looking for him to do anything about it. I also realized that there isn't any solution that works for both of us that would make me feel any more comfortable, but just letting him know did that for me. I wasn't relying on him to make the situation better, as it's my responsibilty to learn to deal with it. I did tell him that I would like for the assumptions to stop...that if he did think that something was difficult for me but he was asking out of the good nature of his heart..not manipulating me, then I wanted him to approach the emotions in the room then address his needs. He didn't agree outright, but I do know that he was listening...and I do know that will be THE most difficult thing for him to do. However, I now have the door open to call out the pink elephant in the room without starting an arguement.
Okay...sorry John_p, little sidetrack there...but I'm still trying to tackle your questions. I'll be back.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
Brilliant?? Well, if you knew all my blunders and moments of weakness (many), you would think again! BUT, thanks for the compliment.
While I shared my story on Slowly's thread, I still have yet to master yours and Betsey's technique of non-threatening, responsible and respectful communication. I have made the first step by trying to always express an emotion as "I feel" or "It's my perception." etc. That seems to work, I think. I try not to use terms like ALWAYS, NEVER, etc.
I agree, I too (and perhaps even now) go into situations expecting a certain response, telling myeslf that if I don't get that, then I will be disappointed, and it will surely mean that H does not care. While parts of the caring might be true, I also think that the quote of "not love you the way you need, but the best way they can" applies here. It's not fair to H to constantly set a bar in my mind that he's not aware of. It's not fair to me either, the constant disappointment is awful, makes you feel like you're spinning. I realize that I too make so many assumptions with his words or actions. Really, if we landed ourselves in this mess, who are we to assume and think that we know the person that well. One of the things that H and I admitted is that we don't know the other person as well as we thought....so, talking and expressing is the best way, SAFELY. See, this is where I used to screw up.
I like the approach of, "here are my feelings, it's out there, no expectations..." I find that with little pressure, H really comes around. Like your XH, in the face of expectations, he turns away...he admitted that he knew I needed things but withheld because of our bad behavior cycle.
I am trying to stop being so emotionally tied during our more heated discussions...b/c all the lessons seem to fly out the window. But, proudly, there have been a few times when H was emotional and I was calm and settled him down. Also, last night presented a situation common in our M that was difficult...H being angry and foul mood and withdrawing and being self-centered, and me withdrawing friendship. I pushed and gave the friendship, he actually accepted and leaned on me instead of pushing me away in self-pity mode. He was still VERY self-focused, but, when I did not overindulge him with friendship, he snapped out of it and actually showed care for me. Small steps, but it seemed HUGE that we approached a common thing in a different way. I feel it's progress.
It's a learned art, that's for sure. No matter how much you detach or have no expectations, the reality is that you do. Or else you would have no connection. I am finding that it's a matter of finding techniques in communication like today, and also giving as much as you can, happily, and be surprised at what you get in return. I like who i am....and I don't want to be so tied to H's emotions, our R sitch and the drama of it all that I stop being me...like withdrawing friendship, stop doing nice things, getting upset, demanding, getting panicked.
OK, enough rambling. I guess I have a lot to learn, and I look forward to this new technique.
Sorry, Johnp, but I'm going to indulge in a hijack of your newly formed thread!
Actually, Always... I think your post was amazing AND brilliant, and I almost fell out of my chair in awe. I can't think of a better illustration of respectful and authentic communication than yours. Let me tell you, you're a peach for sharing that exchange.
Nickel's exaggerating the days thing. It was a few hours. And she WAS skeptical, but she's a pretty quick study. I was pretty thrilled when she called to give me the gory details that evening.
Once you get practice in authentic communication, it gets easier. I still have some folks where it won't work... my mother comes to mind. But I do practice this communication with my XH and daughter quite frequently, and I'm getting much better about projecting and talking about how I feel.
If it helps any of you, before I begin I say a prayer... asking for guidance and help in listening and comprehending and speaking my truth without unwarranted injury. It seems to work.
I'm not perfect at this, Always. Far from it. But I've improved 100% since a year ago. Practice makes perfect, so just keep at it.
Johnp--Back to you, darling. Even though you did a good job communicating in this style, I'm thinking your W just doesn't want to get past the snooping part--at least, right now.
My instinct tells you that you're going to have to validate her distrust and allow her to figure out how she feels about all of this so soon. Can you muster up more patience and compassion?
And to answer your question earlier, no, I don't think you need to imagine a life relegated to worrying about this guy. But let's untangle this one thread at a time, okay?
Betsey
Last edited by Underdog; 02/17/0601:43 AM.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Not sure how available I will be for the next three days, because as luck would have it, wife and I are going away for the weekend (leaving the kids with grandparents) to visit some old friends (more hers than mine, but mutual and predate our relationship), so I don't know what kind of e-access I will have on the road.
Right now I think wife and I are both trying just to pretend nothing happened and just be friendly for the sake of the trip. I've spent some serious time in platonic land, so I'm really fine with this.
Not sure if I've broke the proverbial camels back, but I've got a solid three days to be cool with the distance and I know I can do it.
How did I go so quickly from victim to perpetrator?
Okay, by golly I think I might actually be able to string together a coherent sentence tonight.
Quote: It feels to me like if she can prove to herself that they are just "very close" friends, that it will make what happened go away.
Alright, I'm gonna tackle this head on...I'm gonna go straight at it and just give you a little more to mull.
Let's suppose this is accurate...for the sake of this conversation. It sounds to me like this is your pink elephant. And let me take a guess...you don't want to bring up the topic of the OM because inevitably you believe you're gonna argue about him. You feel anxious about him, she tells you to trust her, you don't, you then basically tell her that she needs to alleviate your distrust in her, she get's mad and you move further from each other.
A few days later, it's still bothering you, so you think and think and think about how to bring it up, but by the time you do, you're even more anxious about the conversation and instead of going in to find understanding, you head into the conversation to convince her, to get her to say "oh honey I'm so sorry, I won't have any contact with him then", and inevitably she doesn't meet your bar because she's not willing to give that up for you yet.
Remember this "He is NOT more important to her than you are. SHE is more important to herself than either you or the OM." So remember, this is about her and not about anyone else. Her choice isn't being made on who's more important, it's being made on principle "you aren't going to control me." Got it?
Okay, moving on.
So picture yourself surrounded by tiny little seahorses. (just kidding...I love Napoleon Dynamite). But seriously, picture yourself and your greatest fears...then picture yourself just sharing them with someone. Knowing that no matter what their response, you're gonna be just fine. Picture there not being only ONE right answer, but several...so many actually that you can't even run through all of them in your head even if the days were longer than 24 hours. Try to imagine your entire head getting clouded with all of these possible answers that you can't even remember which one was going to make you feel better to begin with...that you'll go in with "I already feel better at the sheer fact she was WILLING to take the time to sit down and listen." I say look for the good in it before you even start. Be grateful for the time and consideration given, and don't grade it on response or reaction. I walked into that conversation with my XH already feeling like I had achieved what I set out to do. The fact he was even willing to listen when he didn't have to...is what made my day. Too often we EXPECT things from others. We feel entitled to them...when each day should be treated as a gift. Just because I was his wife doesn't give him the right to EXPECT to be my first choice to do things with. We should always feel priviledged when someone chooses us, no matter how small or big the task.
John_p, let me tell you a little something about me and my XH. Let me tell you about a friend of mine we'll call Mr. ESPN.
Mr. ESPN and I have been friends for 10 years. We went out on one date when we were 18 and I decided that I just wanted to be friends with him. As much as he wanted to be more than that, he graciously accepted what I could give him. He ended up getting a girlfriend who went to my high school (he went do a different one). One day I called Mr. ESPN up and wanted to go do our usual thing of playing tennis then hanging out, but he told me we couldn't do that anymore. Why? Because his GF didn't like us doing that. I totally thought he was a wimp, but after he explained to me that she asked him if he still liked me as more than a friend and he gave her the honest answer of "yes", she put an end to it immediately. As a matter of fact, me and Mr. ESPN didn't get to hang out or even talk on the phone for about 1 1/2 years.
We both went to different colleges, I met my XH, he was still with his GF and all was okay. Until one day in which I had changed colleges, started playing tennis for my new college, ended up playing against his college, and he was there watching...you know cause he's Mr. ESPN. So anyway, we end up reconnecting at a time when I don't have a boyfriend, but he's still got the same GF. This time however he tells her she's going to have to deal with him talking to me and playing tennis and hanging out. Ends up that I get back together with my XH, and about a month later, the GF and Mr. ESPN break up. Well, my XH didn't like me hanging out with Mr. ESPN, so this time it's my boyfriend laying down the ultimatum. So, again, me and Mr. ESPN lose touch, but don't think that I didn't think about him often. On and on the bad timing for me and Mr. ESPN go for the next 7 years...until I decide that my M isn't the way I wanted it to be.
I ended up mending a lot of broken relationships after I decided to leave my XH...including the one I feel me and Mr. ESPN missed out on. Well, ends up, it was good timing for the both of us...his fiance had just called off the wedding and I was getting ready to get a divorce...FINALLY we're in the same place at the same time (emotional f'd up, but same place ). Me and Mr. ESPN started hanging out again, playing tennis, going out with friends all the time (this was before my D). But here's where it get's good and this is really where you should be paying attention. That entire time, I still missed my XH. I was still very confused and feeling guilty about my actions of having a good time with Mr. ESPN, but also feeling like I had more than just friendship feelings for him. So, what did I do...I moved back in to the house...we went to counseling. At this time, I was waiting for my XH to do all the work still. I was running a double life almost...and I was careful not to let those lives mix. I didn't hide the fact that Mr. ESPN was there when I went out...as a matter of fact I offered it up as part of my details...but what I didn't do...my XH didn't get to see my text messages, listen to my voicemails, nor did he get to meet Mr. ESPN. Can you believe that...my XH, who I'd been with for 9 years, has never met Mr. ESPN. I had a good reason for that...Mr. ESPN was always my back up plan.
So...I'd say that what we need to figure out is how you maneuver the waters to make her believe she doesn't need a backup plan. For the record...I still hang out with and talk to Mr. ESPN, but whenever my XH wants to be a part of my life, I'm excited about them meeting. Before, I was afraid that my XH would be able to sense or feel the feelings I had for Mr. ESPN if we were in the presence of one another. Honestly, I think the two of them would get along TOO well.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
Betsey 