That's all that would hve to be done, mandatory counseling. For a year. I wonder how many marriages could be saved if that were the case. I know some are lost forever, but if the WA would be forced to sit down and talk about their issues, even if the marriage wasn't saved, things would be a whole lot better for everyone invoved.
That's the problem I came across. My ex totally refused any therapy or counseling after we split.
We did have marraige counseling and went to Retrouvaille... during both of which he was lying through his teeth. He absolutely refused any individual counseling or therapy. He was too "strong" and too "right" to believe he needed help.
The one thing I went through was that my ex believed what he was doing was for everyone's good. He once told me in a rage that "Even if I am committing the ULTIMATE sin, everyone is better off for this. I'm happy, everyone else should be happy. Let's just bury this because it's not a big deal." He also justified his lies twice. Once to me by saying "You don't like the truth" and once to his brother by saying "it's easy to lie."
Oy vey. Talk about twisted. This man can't face himself. I am so glad to be out of that situation.
My husband and I went to Retrouvaille. We did nothing but fight!!!!! I remember thinking I was going to jump out of the car on the way home. I remember screaming and crying because he just would not hear me. It is a very bad memory for me. I did learn that for us, some things should have been left unsaid. Talking/writing about our problems at the time only seemed to make things more painfully clear that we could not agree on basic reality. If there is to be a reconciliation, I am not thinking we would have a marriage based on communication, but on better NOT communicating. I think many people justify lying by saying things like, I didn't want to hurt you. Or you couldn't handle it. When what they really mean is that I don't want to accept any consequences for my actions, so I am going to lie.
Arguing with reality is like trying to teach a cat to bark—hopeless. (Byron Katie)
Quote: I am not thinking we would have a marriage based on communication, but on better NOT communicating.
That is a great insight. You know, the more I pushed, the more he pulled or withdrew.
The amount of words doesn't necessarily mean that we've communicated more.
I hated Retrouvaille. I don't mean that it was a bad program, it probably is extremely helpful to a number of couples. Problem was on my end: I was the writer in the pair, the "professonal" communicator, I knew "theories" of communication due to experience and education. My ex was the exact opposite. He didn't see the need to communicate. Total lone wolf. His self-protective device I suspect. He perhas was playing smoke and mirror games with his silence. I'd try to smash the mirrors rather than accept his perceptions perhaps.
Was always that way in our M, and I was good with it. Good with it to the point that he got away with a lot--short of murder. The process wasn't designed to encourage him to be more communicative or for me to be encouraged to shut up and listen more. The approach was to answer a bunch of questions and then relate to each other. My ex would struggle for his hour of his question and come up with a sentence or two. Me... oh we won't got there...................
Not to mention.... I think we both had difficulty with the idea of a celibate priest trying to discuss and then relate his relationship to the church to a marriage. No can do it my view....archaic views in my mind. Was a disconnect with reality of a dysfunctional relationship.
My husband hates to write. I love to write. I think Rediscovery programs are good for couples. But, for us, there were serious issues that neither of us was ready to bring to the light of day. They should be buried.
I am learning to have an unexpressed thought. It has been a struggle. I do think that starting on medication for ADHD has helped. I struggle with impulsiveness sometimes and often speak without thinking. I need to communicate my feelings, thoughts and desires less to him. I need to learn the other part of communication and listen. Not with my editor's pencil in hand, correcting his grammer, thought process and moving stuff around in his stories to better suit me. It is such a freaking struggle.
My husband is self protective. He should be. He has some very dark secrets. Some I know, or sense. I just know. He has things of which he is very ashamed. As he should be. But, so do I. I told him most of my secrets, without being properly Mirandized. And he can and did use them against me.
So, my thoughts on communication on muddled. I want him to be a girl. I want to talk with him like my best girlfriend. I am confused that he keeps acting like a man.
As for the celibate priest. Once when talking to my priest about marriage I said he could not understand. He said, not understand? I know what it is like to live with someone with whom you have taken vows. He was talking about the priests with whom he lived. I know what it is like to come in an arrange the nativity and have another priest move the statues around. I know how hard conflict is to resolve. So, he went on and on about how hard it is to live with another person. So, they know how hard it is.
At my retreat center, I watched many of the brothers go through all of the same things we are when one of the most loved brothers just thought he would walk away. They felt betrayed, abandoned and lots of feelings. I think they know. Maybe not the same. But they have an idea.
On the other hand, after this forced celibacy, since husband is always too busy. I am not sure how celibate people can think straight about anything! My mind is turning to mush!!
Arguing with reality is like trying to teach a cat to bark—hopeless. (Byron Katie)
"I think many people justify lying by saying things like, I didn't want to hurt you. Or you couldn't handle it. When what they really mean is that I don't want to accept any consequences for my actions, so I am going to lie."
Very good. I wondered why people lie. I don't understand how someone who is supposed to be so close can deliberately lie and think they're doing you a favor. It is just beyond comprehension.
We did Retrouvaille after I spent months walking through hot desert sand. This was after dealing with the aftermath of his long affair. Everywhere I walked, there was no where to go, it seemed...just miles of hot sand. I heard about Retrouvaille and asked him to go. He didn't feel he could express certain feelings and I guess because he didn't feel them in a pro-marriage way. The first night was testy and the next day he decided to leave. He said "we're leaving", I said "I'm staying". I begged him to stay but he was angry. And so he left. Oh well, guess the issues were too difficult too confront but that is all history, thankfully! So, Retro is a fine program I'm sure, but add me to the list of people who didn't find it could help.
I sense it still hurts a great deal for you. What is it that really bothers you the most? Not that I wish for you to respond here, though I wish for you to find the answer for yourself.
I feel your bitterness, anger and resentment, and they are difficult emotions to address. I'm sure you did the best you could ... please don't punish yourself for failings you don't have. You can't take his 'baggage' upon yourself and hope to find the answers you seek.
You are a very sensitive woman. Like me, you think and feel too much, and you and I end up punishing and blaming ourselves, and we need to stop doing it.
You tried your best, and the rest isn't your fault.
That was a constant theme in my divorce. Personally, I don't feel we should bury issues. You can't have a relationship--a true sharing relationship--if you're having to bury your anger, your fears, even the "good" stuff.
Quote: I need to communicate my feelings, thoughts and desires less to him. I need to learn the other part of communication and listen. Not with my editor's pencil in hand, correcting his grammer, thought process and moving stuff around in his stories to better suit me. It is such a freaking struggle.
This brings back some pretty funny stuff. My ex was developing a couple of "tame" websites back about the time we were going through our crap. I was working on my portfolio independently at school at the time (yup, even in the education department I need a portfolio... I swear I can go cross eyed at times). I asked him... no told him... I'd edit the copy as part of my portfolio. Win/Win situation I told him. He got free services, I got another notch in the ol' portfolio. He got p!ssed off because honestly... the man cannot write to save his soul... I got upset because I'm thinking "c'mon... we got a win-win thing here... you get better copy, I get an A." Ugh!
Last thing I want is a girl LOL. I have waaaay to many of those in my life with four daughters. Sheez, I think that's another thing that drove my ex insane. The estrogen pit was too much even for me at times. And the guy even had the testerone pit in the workshop! Even I'm beginning to enjoy the peace without those girls around. Love 'em to death but my gawd put them all together and someone is b!tching. The PMS levels around here had to drive the ex insane.
Karma being what it is... I do find this hillarious. The ex's galpal is a lot younger than I am and has three daughters. OMG... do I find that deliciously funny. Talk about doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. I'll bet my bottom dollar that relationship is dead if it isn't by now!
Don't remind me about the forced celibacy. It's gotta be a better place than where I came from ... oh well... as long as the batteries are fresh, I guess <sigh> I can survive.
Dating has become so sucky I just am ignoring doing so right now. The last guy who tried to date me... not the friend I wrote about earlier in this thread... was just so freaking needy and whiny (and unemployed) I wanted to hit the ceiling. I told him on the outset: "Hey, I'm up EARLY -- like 6 a.m. early. I won't be happening much after 10 pm. "What does the jerk do? CAlls me at midnight. I answer pretty grumpy... after all was woke from a sound slumber. He gives me crap about the way I answered the phone. I told him where to get off and hung up. Went back to sleep. Starts him off on a three-day phone war with me begging me to talk to him, all calls went to VM.
Gawd... I am not up to this right now....... I can see where my personality is going... back to normal... back to what it was when the ex and I got along. The stress sucked so much I think I was losing me.
I'm soooo there right now. I'm not even angry about it. It's gotten to the point I'm finding this stuff so funny these days. I was just waaaaay to nice for waaaay to long to the ex. I probably trained him to walk all over me. What in the world got me to ramble like that?
No, not angry. In fact, a lot of hindsight has given me a certain humor about all of this. I do laugh at a lot of the stuff that's happened, and more importantly, think I've found a lot of lessons in this.
The "difficult" emotions? Where do you read that?
In all honesty, I am fine, doing well, and have had quite a strange last few months if you've read the whole thread. A lot has been clicking on this end of the world for me... new job, a couple of interesting coincidences, and in general have had a pretty good outlook.
Read the thread again. Methinks you may have just caught the rants re Retrouvaille and the counseling condundrums.
... oh well... as long as the batteries are fresh, I guess <sigh> I can survive. 