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A Message from Michele
Active Threads | Active Posts | Unanswered Today | Since Yesterday | This Week
For Newcomers
7 minutes ago
AS and Steve gave you good advice. Now it is time to learn how to be more attractive and mysterious. You are falling too close to the friend zone.

Everything in your day is about her and her work and how y'all are interacting. What can you do to break your dependence on her and develop some new friends and/or hobbies?

In my neighborhood I would be golfing, tennis, running, fishing, joining different groups. And then I would going to local parks to run, read, fish, swim, walk. I would find new tv shows you like if you stay in, or new recipes, or new hobbies like woodworking or training your dog.

Read about attraction and seduction. Look for the big post from an old poster named "Coach" on this, or read about it elsewhere on the web.

Here is our collection of quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62716&Number=2889136#Post2889136
10 170 Read More
For Newcomers
26 minutes ago
My friend,

it is good to hear from you again. And it appears D5.5 has turned into D6.127 haha.

Check on The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot. I think you may like it a lot. I've been progressing a lot with this 2,000 year old wisdom. The best thing I have learned is that you are the one who decides how you take things. Remain indifferent to indifferent things. Realize how much meaning you assign to things and the inner discourse you have. This meal? It is the corpse of a fish. This tunic, the wool of a lamb. Sex? Two people rubbing the bellies together.

Are you guys still locked down? Our gyms opened up 3 weeks ago thank the lord. I was able to snag some decent home gym stuff back in March so I was ok but I've really enjoyed the gym again after this time off. How are your daughter's studies coming? My dad, despite all his flaws, managed to sit down every night with my brother and me to do homework, reading, studying, preparation. It made a huge difference in my life.
45 2,250 Read More
For Newcomers
27 minutes ago
Wisdom from LH19 that all those who are dealing with WAS should read....

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by MistySea
I REALLY dont think any of this is going to amount to a hill of beans in the end . Oh, I would love for him to work this out - but this guy has other things going on in his head - and having a OW whispering sweet nothings and sheer adorations - is not helping. What I have learned on this board (just recently), is that you could do everything right per DB rules - and they still leave you. The wisdom being taught here is to detach detach detach so when it does happen, your just a bit more prepared.

Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a years long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified (the coffee incident) and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, its an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. He knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and he has decided that's not compatible with what he wants.

If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially he'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get him back and as soon as he lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained him that you are.

In order to turn this around he needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get him back.

How do you convince him of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. He won't even see them until she believes that you don't need him.

As a WAS, they will often displace blame on the LBS because they need to give themselves some relief, so eventually they are angry at you for what you did, and then they are angry at you again for what they did.

If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless?

Can you see why if you address their past complaints *now* it just makes them angrier at you?

The three biggest things he's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what he's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing him to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make him either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase his guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, he's going to resent you more.

If you pursue him, argue with her, or try to convince him to work with you on the marriage, he's going to resent you for not letting him go and not giving him the space he wants.

If you immediately address all her historic complaints, he's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.

If you give him space, itís going to make him less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, itís going to make him less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with him, but not intimate, itís going to make him less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* he will process his anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL he goes through both of those processes, he will not see you as anything other than he believes you to be based on his prior training.

If he thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, he's still going to think of you as the girl that wears blue, because he literally can't see you right now.

WHILE he is processing his anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.

If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While his anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.

When eventually he's had enough time and space that he can SEE YOU again, he'll be surprised by what she sees, and he'll question for the first time the assumptions he has held about you.

THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take him to process his anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, itís a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.

That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.

44 881 Read More
For Newcomers
38 minutes ago
LH - I have bought many books, I have listened to audio tapes & podcasts, I have had DB counseling....but THIS IS THE BEST AND MOST CLEAR advice that just crystallizes exactly what is going on with the WAS for the LBS ... all in one post.

Everyone should read this - THANK YOU LH!!! smile
52 1,196 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Originally Posted by Core
I've done some hiring albiet a few years ago and with a recruiter doing most of document handling and verifying. My take is that it could be legit, however it is suspicious. Places like warehouse jobs, cashiers, call centers or other jobs people can get with limited education seemingly go through a more intense verification process to cut down on turnover. W2s is suspicious in that they can see her previous pay. The documents she's requesting could also be used to open a bank account, couldnt they? Make sure your finances are safe if you are going to get the documents over to her.

I appreciate the reply. She says she canít get her last pay stub because it was on the companyís intranet. She actually has her own account and had for years. Honestly the first thing that went thru my head was she was gonna file our federal taxes and pocket everything since sheís unemployed.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
If they're her documents, I'd send across whichever ones you can easily find and not worry about her motives. Your ex lies often. There's a good chance she's lying now, but they're her documents. ::shrug::

I wouldn't go to great lengths to find anything for her, though.

I did send her an email, attached the last 2 years W2s and the body of the email just said canít find your GED, anywhere you can think it may be let me know.

Tonight I talked to my best friend on the phone. Told him exactly how i have I been feeling. Heís a good dude. Was with the same woman for 10 plus years. Came home and his girl was gone. So he has an idea of how Iím feeling. Heís reminded me I owe her nothing and to stop seeing her for the next month and dont talk to her
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For Newcomers
2 hours ago
Hi Sage,

((Hugs)) Well done on standing your ground on who's giving up, and some great introspection, too. I tend to be more assertive like you, which is tricky when partners don't speak up about their needs. It leads to situations where we give strongly, but not in the ways that matter most to them, leading to a disconnect.
36 717 Read More
For Newcomers
3 hours ago
Originally Posted by Turbine

Spent the rest of the day with the two kids and grandsons. Grilled and had a good time.

I hope all of you are doing well in this crazy Covid focused world.

Glad you made some memories with the kids and grandkids, and stayed busy.

I tell you, this covid crisis isnt too much different for some introverts in a non medical profession. Its normal in a way. Hopefully the numbers showing positive signs of reopening things continue and people stay smart.
75 3,229 Read More
For Newcomers
3 hours ago
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Well after months of being mostly OK today is our wedding anniversary. I was prepared. I have dinner ordered just for me. I have my whiskey ice cubes ready. I thought I'd at least be able to push through WFH today like it was going to be any other day just so I could survive until tonight. H then sent me a text " Don't think I forgot its our wedding anniversary. It's just weird for us right now, ok? " It's a moment like this where I really wish my mom was still here. I could really use a mom hug. I haven't cried like this in ages and it's miserable. I just want to get a hold of myself and go about my day as planned. Ignoring the he** out of today being a day of any significance.

I'm sorry to hear you're hurting today Wayfarer. The anniversary, whats transpired in your sitch combined with your husbands comment leaves a lot to question, feel, understand and can open the door to so many interpretations. I was beginning to question if you were emotionally invincible. Us on the board are thinking of you. Looking forward to an update with some funny comment on how the day turned out.
63 2,018 Read More
For Newcomers
6 hours ago
Thanks Steve and LH. Sage words, indeed. Sums up my sitch very succinctly. Just going to keep DBing and make sure I come out the other side as best as I can be.

3 80 Read More
Surviving the Big D
6 hours ago
see! you're the perfect person to guide me! My son has given me a directive (lol) NOT to use Dad's saws (table, band, chain).. kind of puts a crimp in the building a coop and run plan..

and honestly - he's right, as I have zero experience and would probably unintentionally hurt myself.
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For Newcomers
Yesterday at 10:13 PM
If anyone hasn't read it, Esther Perel's Rethinking Infidelity is a great book. I'm about half way through and she touched upon something called a love-lust split. About how one person in a relationship, after years of becoming emotionally involved and affectionate with them, stops seeing them as a sexual being as when the R began.

It's not a case of simply not being attracted to them in that way (as a WAS wouild see it); rather it's more like the LBS separating them, believing that is the right thing to do, and the mind gets stuck with that train of thought. There are lots of additional variables which cause it. This definitely happened to me.

I'd recommend the book to go into more detail on this.
2 110 Read More
Surviving the Big D
Yesterday at 10:08 PM
He's usually very nice to me - acts of service, he cooks for me, cleans, is very attentive, caring towards me - all things that were attractive about the relationship in the beginning. He doesn't direct his OCD stuff at me. It must be kinda awful to live in his skin, where all these things rub him the wrong way.

As for programs to help him - not so much. Section 8 housing takes years to move up a list in our city. He'd be dead before he'd qualify.

I don't want to be responsible for a man with a terminal illness being out on the street. I'm happy to provide a roof over his head so long as he just keeps his issues with my boys to himself. It's too bad he couldn't tolerate medical marijuana, that might have chilled him out, but alas, it just gives him myoclonus.
22 676 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Hey Wolf, welcome back! Glad to hear things are going well between you and GF, Hopefully D will warm up to her eventually. Sorry to hear about the incident with your XW. It's probably for the best that the exchanges happen at the police station from now on, far less chance of drama. Hopefully the computer was the last thing your XW could hold over your head like that. Put her in the rearview mirror where she belongs!

Thank you. She is in the rear view mirror. Way back there. Iím glad to be back. I miss so many of you. The advice from here is great. The validating I have learned from here was wonderful. I wish I knew it a long time ago. I would have used it more in all aspects of my life. How have you been AS?
85 1,855 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Pommy99
Iím trying to give myself (and him) a mental break from constantly thinking about the M. Itís hard to get it out of my mind 24/7 but I am distracting myself. Iím also not sure myself which way Iím leaning.

That's OK, and glad you're focusing on you and engaging in other things!

Originally Posted by Pommy99
He sent me some links about the impact of S/D on children. Iíd already sent them to him about 5 months ago. Heís only just getting the enormity of the situation now.

Surprise!! My H did the same thing. Sometimes they're a little slow wink

Originally Posted by Pommy99
I found the conversation hurtful because it seemed a stark reminder that there is no R in sight as far as he is concerned. This kind of interaction just sets me back again. I refrained from making any comments about him having left, or wishing he would come back, or ĎI told you it would hurt them but you didnít see an issueí.

Good job on refraining on any comments. My read? (not to be mindreading, but)-- he threw out some positive breadcrumbs on the social posting, texts, etc. That didn't work to get a response from you so then he tried temp checking in the other direction to see if he could get a reaction that makes him feel better, confirming that you're still there. If you'd said those things, you'd have given him that certainty. Do your very very best to not let anything like that cross your lips. Otherwise, you're back to square one. And don't let it throw you. He's just opening his mouth and letting his confusion all out-- it doesn't mean he thinks D is a certainty, or anything, really. Remember, believe nothing of what they say.

Originally Posted by Pommy99
I kept the conversation very business like. He asked how i was, how my weekend was but I kept my answers short, and didnít ask him how he was. Should I be asking him or should I not go there? Iím still struggling between being cheery and interested in him or showing him Iím over it.

I agree with WF on this-- positive and cheerful for YOU, nothing to do with him. Neutrality is what you're striving for. You can be cheerful and totally disinterested in him, or at least not overtly interested in him. Not rude, not showing him you're over him-- simply you are good with yourself as you are, you don't need him (or anyone) to be happy.

Again, this may be a fake it til you make it kind of thing, but I do think it is really critical. I think the key is focusing on YOU and what you need, doing things because you genuinely want to do them, not because you want to elicit any particular response from him. I'd try not to overthink it and have your default be not asking, not over-responding, not saying anything relationship-related.
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For Newcomers
Yesterday at 08:40 PM
Well, I did not end up crying...or at least yet. By entering into the speedy engagement, OM is probably trying to draw a sharp contrast with me. She always felt that it took me too long to propose. She probably accepted because she got swept away by her emotions. That would not be out of character for her.

But I don't have any idea how long this has been going on. At the outset, I asked, but she refused to tell me. That was the last question I asked about it because it doesn't really matter to me. If we were reuniting, it might be useful to know more information. If we're not, I cannot see what good the information can do me. We're also at that point where I am the villain in her life story and I ruined everything. So, it seems wisest not to ask questions or discuss anything.

23 699 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 08:24 PM
Have fun Dilly!

Your H sounds like a 19 year old undergraduate contemplating a gap year!
19 411 Read More
Surviving the Big D
Yesterday at 07:52 PM
A - I am actually not seeing that in my sitch. I have helped the Doc with so many things I have lost track. This weekend I spent several hours in her new office space helping her hang things, moving equipment etc.

The Doc is just stubborn in general but is not afraid to ask for help.
76 2,030 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by KitCat
I'm not trying to continue a path to friendship. Can I be kind and gentle and polite as he is moving things out of our house, absolutely. If the puppy has any issues - will he call me, yes (it's really my official job that I get paid for....) If we D I will let the atty's handle all of it - but it won't be nasty. BUT, I WILL NOT BE HIS FRIEND. I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR LESS THAN I DESERVE.

Sounds like a plan! "Would a busy bank teller do this?" Good job ignoring the missed call with no message.
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For Newcomers
Yesterday at 05:32 PM
101 3,250 Read More
Piecing Our Marriage Back Together Again
Yesterday at 05:16 PM
Back again after a long time away bc I reserved my self to the fact that divorce was on the way.
Papers were sent to me in September and the back and forth with the lawyers has been going on.
I'm still in our house, she is at her parents and the kids have been going back and forth on a schedule.

Out of the blue 2 weeks ago I get a text at 3am from her saying she was thinking of all our awesome adventures together. I respond with "yes they were very fun with the boys and before we had the boys". The next day she asks if she can join me and the boys for pizza Friday night and I say sure. We have been amicable. She comes over we have pizza and after go for a walk.

She gets back to her parents house and in a text thanks me for a nice night and dinner and says she can see her self coming home and thanked me for never giving up and see many new adventures for us together but it will be a uphill climb and she is sorry for everything.

That Sunday we go for a morning bike together wo the kids and after she comes in for a hug almost a kiss and again thanks me. I also asked her what she was thinking and she says she knows she still loves me and is in love with me.

Again dinner the next Friday and movie with the boys at our house and then comes the no return of texts across Sunday and yesterday. We has plans to go to the beach together when the sun came out. I texted for a approx. time and an hour later got a "oh we are bailing on the beach".

Later that night I get a text saying that she was nervous about how I spoke to the 6 yo (sternly) about how he rode right out into the street wo looking. And she is afraid that my anger will be turned on her. I told her I understand and hear her and will continue to try to be a bit softer.

Now its all "I'm done, I have no interest in working on stuff, don't text me" I texted her back "What happened, lets discuss etc and one instance where we disagree on my reaction to something and thats it?"

I thought we were on the long journey of the piecing path but I seem to have fallen off the cliff.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions

0 17 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 04:50 PM
Packs, congratulation on asserting equal custody after double-checking with an attorney. That's fantastic! It will mean so much to your children in the years to come.
23 739 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 04:44 PM
Hi Funbun,

Yes, at least she opened up, and we found a solution.

Originally Posted by FunBun
But also you cannot pressure her to better communicate! It can be frustrating sometimes. Love her as she is, allow her to free safe, but don't exhaust yourself yeah. She loves you in her own way.

True. GF often goes along with my ideas/plans and then regrets that. While I would love for her to speak up more, I could work harder to remind her when she has options and that those options are perfectly okay!

She sends me morning updates on COVID. I think I will start sending her morning pictures of our garden. That may help her feel more connected even when she can't be out there in person.
88 2,658 Read More
Surviving the Big D
Yesterday at 03:18 PM
I made the mistake of telling a coworker about about my attorney situation. She says the timeline will be the same. 6+ months to get temporary support?? Seriously?? She said H will fight me on custody yet in his counter file he says D17 and S19 will live with me, says he will pay child support but does want joint custody. D14 wants to live with me but in his offer he says she will live with him. He doesn't know she wants to move. Will this be an expensive custody fight like my coworker says?

The only other things we have to argue over is alimony and his pension plan (I am entitled to half). He will fight me on this I know. I've saved $10k wouldn't this be enough or am I delusional? I think the temporary support will address alimony which will cost what $4k? That leaves $6k to argue over the pension plan and other things like kid expenses.
97 1,084 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by BobP
Yesterday was the first day I saw my W since the day I moved out on Mother's Day May 10th. I swung by to pick up our dog who I'll have for the next week. The transfer probably didn't last any longer than 3 or 4 minutes which was good considering how raw my feelings have been. There was no weirdness, both of us were upbeat and friendly yet in a somewhat coolish kind of way. The talk was only about the dog, then we both seemed in an anxious competition to see who would finish the talking first, which I would say was probably a tie.

There was definitely a sense of more distance between us, more so than on the day I left when there was still some remnants of past habits re the way we talked with one another and came into contact. The OM is there constantly. When she's not working they're doing something together. Apparently they're looking at buying waterfront property together. No doubt there is a tighter connection between the two of them then there was even two weeks ago. Whether what they have is for real or just a fantasy I don't know. As I know them both I can say there is no doubt they have much in common and their musical efforts being in the same band can definitely tighten their bond. It's just mind boggling for me the speed in which everything is happening. Just 2 1/2 months ago there was still evidence of at least some emotional investment on her part toward our marriage.

Having the dog this week should be good therapy. I need something to help jar me from this funk. People ask me how I'm doing and I'll offer the "I'm hanging in there", "Doing the best I can", or "Well I've been better but I'll be okay". The truth is I've never known a feeling of crappiness like this before which I can't even begin to explain. I'm sure everyone here knows what I mean. I feel absolutely gutted. I know I need to GAL. Today I'll take the dog for a nice hike. Being out in nature can sometimes be rejuvenating.

Bob, you seem disappointed that there wasn't more of a conversation on the pick up of the dog. I would suggest that your goals should be to pick the dog up with no words at all! Hi. Thank you. at a maximum.

Also, lots of focus on her and what she is doing in paragraph 2. I want to know what Bob is going to do to get himself out of the "feeling of crappiness". That is on you, not her. People around us make crappy decisions, that's on them. How we let it affect us and our life is on us. Yes, there should be a period where you mourn the loss of your relationship. But look at your sitch. You are on your own. She has moved OM in. You need to grab your bootstrings, pick yourself up off teh ground, and go get that awesome life that you so deserve!! These things can paralyze you for a long time if you let it. I let my ex-GF paralyze me for nearly 20 years. Definitely a good 12 years, before I realized that I deserved better and went out in search of it!

The would you received was not your doing. But doing what it takes to close that wound and heal certainly is!
26 822 Read More
Surviving the Big D
Yesterday at 02:03 PM
The more I think about it, the more the past few years - the limited amount I know about my ex's life - the more things now make sense.

The anger, well actually rage that I had seen. The distancing from the rest of the world. She was certainly a material girl although especially in the latter years of our marriage she prided herself on her frugality. Well - it's her bed and she made it.

I don't feel sorry for her at all. Nor am I (much) thinking that she has a well-deserved comeuppance. As is counseled here, working on my being the "sane parent" and only focusing on my side of the street is the course to follow.


I'm getting more accustomed to the cadence of my "new job". The night before, go through the production for the prior day, make some guestimates of what will be done the next day and what can make the truck. Get up early the next morning, get the revised customer requirements, figure out what instructions to send, find out that I was mistaken on at least one or two items, write some emails to sort that out, realize that emails are a waste of time and make a couple of phone calls, get the load planned and then breathe in, breathe out and it's the time of day that most people are starting.

I'm learning a lot and the people I work with are fabulous especially the plant people who are patient in explaining things to me and the company president who has been doing this job since forever. They also have a good sense of humour. The president questioned one of the decisions I made (a common occurrence), I called him, explained my reasoning and said that I was suffering shoulder strain from patting myself on the back. He laughed, gave some more details about that particular piece of business and the production process which I wasn't fully aware of and then we did it his way.


S13 came "home" last night for the first time since his room has been set up. He seems pleased with it and in good spirits. I didn't interact with him much as they got here in the early evening and I was tired from yard work and went to have a soak in the tub. He played video games while I read. I need to install an air conditioner in that room which S was seemingly surprised that it was going to be a fair bit of work building a new frame for the window rather than just popping it in. I'd mentioned it in the past but the connection perhaps didn't get made. She still has to pick up the AC from the storage unit she shares so until then, the kid will sweat under a fan just like my daughter did in that same room for 17 years. It doesn't seem to bother him.

S and I are navigating our relationship. Communication and expectations are something we both know we have to work on, perhaps me more than her. We have booked for the next 3 evenings sessions with her IC who is doing a free couples workshop. It's mainly intended I think for established couples who are working through problems than for ones starting out, but it's sure to help.


S25 stopped by yesterday afternoon and I walked him through swapping out his winter tires. This is the first time he's changed a tire and it went well and I think he's rather proud of himself. He appreciated tips like keeping the hubcaps handy to put the nuts in etc which he wouldn't have thought of on his own. I am sure that in the fall that he'll just come and do it without assistance and if he encounters someone on the road with a flat tire, he will be able to help. He's storing his tires here - cuz people store stuff here it seems wink and apologized for the recent radio silence. It does sound like he's settling in well to his new apartment. He found the laundromat and I suggested that anyone that he meets there isn't a good option as after-all, he'd want a girlfriend who can afford her own washing machine laugh The only person he did meet there was in her mid 40s and was doing 7 loads, so perhaps not a good dating prospect anyway.

I'm very pleased with how well he seems to be doing. He is a very capable young man and I'm glad that he was able to launch smoothly.

Well - back to my emails. Have a great day all.
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