and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point.
I've been -ruminating- over John Gray's Mars/Venus books interpretation of this. Paraphrased:
~When a woman is stressed she feels a need to talk about her feelings and ALL the possible problems that are associated. No priorities. Not concerned with solutions. Seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood. Through exploring her feelings she finds awareness of what is really bothering her. The more talk and exploration, the better they feel. If not feeling heard and understood, she may expand further, even to other peoples problems.
Just as a man is fulfilled through working out the intricate details of solving a problem, a woman is fulfilled through talking about the details of her problems~
Originally Posted by MrP
I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.
This year I'm wondering if this isn't a version of testing. i.e. Can you call me on my BS when I am off the rails? Are you stronger than me like I want you to be?
So, my goal is steps beyond a R with W. I don't control that.
I keep thinking I'll make short posts. I keep failing.
You don't control it right now, but it seems to me the advice around here is that the LBS does control the relationship in the end. And if you haven't gotton to that point yet then it is not the end.
MamaG, one thing you can do differently is to make a pact with yourself to not initiate anymore relationship talks. They are a cheeseless tunnel. Your mind is tricking you into believing that you need answers. The problem? R talks rarely provide answers. And usually result in even more questions. So it's a vicious cycle. Make the choice to break that cycle
Let this be your guiding principle: Never initiate an R talk. If he does, listen and validate (learn what that is) and nothing more. And be the one to end the discussion.
Really commit to this. LBSs that initiate R talks end up being the most frustrated. Remember, R talks are fruitless and unsatisfying. You probably already know this from your own experience. So learn from that experience.
Sorry you are here, but I'm so glad you found the forum. Lots of good folks here to help.
You have to try to stay busy. Idle time and an unoccupied mind are your biggest threats right now. The posters that have traditionally struggled the most have done GAL the worst. They would sit doing nothing large parts of the day, and then come here and talk about how much they struggle.
Stay busy. Occupy body and mind as much as possible. Get out and hang with friends, read and focus on learning new things. Exercise. Any minute you are sitting doing nothing gives your mind the opportunity to wander and start thinking about things you shouldn't.
Remember, struggling is a choice you get to make. Choosing to stay busy is how you choose not to struggle. It's within your control!
Offhand, I don't remember when your BD was. By reading your post, it sounds like it may have been more recently that you learned about your W's struggles. The card incident was purely the 'straw that broke the camels back'. If it weren't the card, it would've been something else that set her off. My BD was just over a year ago and I still have tough days (including today). I've learned so much and I'm not going to lie, I still feel at a loss at some point in most days. Still struggling to drop the rope and let him be God's to work through. It's hard to stop loving someone you've loved everyday for decades...and, mostly to stop loving them like we have for decades. Loving my H now is from afar. I love him by giving him space while watching him drink and use and in deep depression - but I've learned through trials and errors that I can't help him. It hurts to watch but know that it isn't your fight. It isn't your battle. I try to read about MLC and expected behaviors. That helps me realize that what he's going through is 'normal'. I also have signed onto many Instagramers who preach and explain bible verses. They inspire me and get me through. Taking walks with or without dogs help. Breathing fresh air is actually refreshing...really odd to think but these things work for me. I even got a second job just to get out of the house (and my head).
I'm so sorry you're in this position. I'm sending prayers your way.
Ive been struggling with depression today...I feel like im living in a hotel room in my new apartment. it doesnt feel like home. I know its going to take time. I feel like a alcoholic trying not to drink with a bottle of whisky in front of me. my wife being the whisky. I keep wanting to talk to her and wonder what shes doing when the kids arent there. Im not going to call her and im trying not to think about her.
Yup I relate...GAL helps. One thing that helped me was making my new place "Manly".
I have been going to "estate sales" lately and getting great prices on cool things. Even if I don't find anything, socializing with the people is fun.
Anything attractive about your behavior when you were interacting with him? Anything you want to change?
It is like playing poker. Hold all your beliefs,thoughts,expectations,questions,emotions ect tight while interacting with him. He thinks he knows you. Right now, your goal is to prove him wrong.
And yes, by all means let out all the emotions when he is not around. Cry your heart out. Scream, yell, curse when it is safe.
Give yourself permission and go do something nice things for yourself this weekend. Do your nails, hair, new outfit....whatever helps you feel good about yourself. Dinner and movie alone is perfectly acceptable (and enjoyable).
H and I had planned a vacation for this past week but MLC nixed that. As such, we were both not working. I typically see my H 2x a week for cancer appts - spend 4 to 5 hours a day with him, until he 'has to go home to...'. This week, I've seen him 4 out of 5 days. I looked forward to it so much (secretively). H is pleasant but his need to escape is so prevalent. It seems to hurt more when I see him more. Today, H left to go home to take a nap. Really? H is in our home and needs to leave to take a nap. People say I'm strong and days like today, I don't see it. The pain, heartache, disappointment just don't stop. H left and I curled up in bed just ugly crying. My reaction to H's unwarned "I'm going to go home to take a nap before my appointment." announcement caught me off guard and I immediately switched from content to visibly disappointed. H noticed and felt guilty...started to talk really nice and thanked me for a delicious lunch. "Did you get those burgers on sale?" I responded with a snarky response. H's request for a hug good-bye was reluctantly reciprocated and off he went. I acted like a 2 year old with a tantrum. So disappointed. sigh.
Mach1, I did say I think on the words said here....
Originally Posted by Mach1
And one reason I bring this up with you, is about the balance of what I speak of....
Nothing...
Everything...
It's a razors edge for sure.
And the next day randomly in my "make a playlist for me Spotify," an artist and song unknown to me. The album "Everything & Nothing" by David Sylvian. Huh.
Blackwater
I hold you in A sea of silence On the borderline of truth Open violence I see no sign I see no place I've loved Depending on the signs To find the road ... I see her cry I see the face I have loved Depending on the blind To find the road
Blackwater take me with you To the place that I have spoken Come lead me through the morning For the land that I long to see again
Originally Posted by Mach1
He was also a walkaway, from his first marriage. And I think a lot of that allowed him to find empathy in his situation.
For me? Hmmmm... after all the pain and internal re-examination this year I still would find it hard to ever be a walk away myself. Push comes to shove and all that. For me, empathy comes from examining me from her perspective. Did I really mean my claims and statements over the years?
- "I Love You," Did I really mean it and what does that mean right now?
I discovered I did, and how I felt about US and chose to act was not dependent on whether she was cold or warm. I had CHOSEN at our begining and to me that was final. Yes, I found my definition since our begining was Love is a choice, verb, and then feeling. The choice is permenent for me. The verb I succeed and fail at over the years, but always intend. The feeling...well it follows how well I am doing at the verb.
- What is a M? What are vows?
I rolled this around for a while. I can only hold me accountable for my own. I think what resonated with me was the notion that M is a covenant created by God. We joined it together. Break with God at your peril. Answer to Him for your part.
WW, "But G, you didn't Cherish ME!" What?! I have ALWAYS FELT that way. W used words that didn't translate well to my thought process. Eventually translated - "you didn't say and do things in my language that I would feel cherished by." The notion of her pain and unhappiness, thinking she was not cherrished was more painful than an OM, who is just a symptom. W has had a tendancy since the begining to assume the worst interpretations and roll around in unhappy feelings without telling me.
- "for better or worse," What does this mean to me in this mess?
Originally Posted by Mach1
Jack would have been a fan of you though....
Encouraging you to burn every ounce of fuel to outlast her MLC, to find a way through this while causing minimal damage. To find one more day within yourself. He would ask if she was worth it, the waiting for her to figure herself out before a bell was rung that could not be un-rung..
This is definitionally "worse." When I took four years to say "I Do," I kept working through all the "worse" situations I could think of and testing myself. I still did not imagine this one. For me this mess is an "outside context problem." See Ian Banks novels where the term originates or just google.
Going in I had NO frame of reference to deal with any of this. No doubt a pile of failure on my part by not growing my relationship skills and understanding over the years. I had thought W is certainly more skilled at this than me so I will leave it to her. A faulty way of thinking. Abdicating my responsibilities for my end.
It turns out I meant it. And it is God's covenant I joined with W. So what follows was simple to me. From Love and instinct, I opened the cage door in my first reply to her DB1. I also stated I don't believe it is right or good but is chaos and destruction. My actual words. I will not actively participate. I will not block. I will not deny your agency.
W, "G, if you tell me I can't D, I won't. I will submit but I will be angry and unhappy and separate." G, "W, I will not keep you like some caged bird."
Trying for minimal damage while balancing all the other things ... How much damage to me do I accept or can bear to minimize others? Damage to her? No, I went very dim/dark since last fall when she moved herself out. I say little. I just do. Though this may be perceived as more of the same. I did not ask for the house key back. There are no restrictions to her coming over for the children. I have more peace NOT in her presence right now but the kids balance now is as good as could possibly be hoped in this.
My metaphor - for her was a little sun shining deep in my core. Now imploded into a black hole and threatening to devour ME. Unless. Unless. I could grow faster than that event horizon could suck bits in.
Originally Posted by Mach1
I have also witnessed several Men in that situation burn out quickly from doing that. The sustained instant accountability becomes overwhelming if the reason is merely obtaining a goal. When the goal fades, so does the façade of changing because we simply felt the need to change...
So, my goal is steps beyond a R with W. I don't control that. I am slowly gaining words to wrap around it. I was asked by W, by IC, by pastor, by others... the short response was to grow. Into what I should have been all along. Into the person, man, father, husband?, friend, son, brother, ... I want to be. I don't think there is an end here to this process. Picking framworks and applying. PIES is useful. Working on known unknowns. Trying to find unknown unknowns.
So, I'm not quiting or stopping. -Till we burn out the sun- If W completes her D, it doesn't change where I'm going. Every week I gain better strength and equlibrium. Not less pain, really. I'm just stronger to accept what is. Analogy - In college days I had a friend who took me to the gym weight lifting every day for a year. I did get a lot stronger that year. The workouts were never less painful though. No matter how strong I got.
Filter - Burn out the Sun
Oh no we're blind again we just lost the sight of it Everything and all that we had ever done We need to see again we stopped listening And that's on all of us this time Our hearts are still sold from a simple time And our wants are still old and we do or die I hope we find a way I hope we get away Just a rescue from a lost lonely time
I feel so tired But time keeps marching on I can't sleep till all These clouds are gone
Till they're gone Till they're gone Till we burn out the sun
I keep thinking I'll make short posts. I keep failing. And these are a fraction of the things I connect each day. The inside joke - I say I'm a simple man. Things often appear simple to me and each thing logically flows from the others. The family rolls their eyes..."G, you are the most complex simple man alive."
Hey Grok. Thanks for the comments. It was productive because the counselor did tease out of my W a few areas where W (for the first time) acknowledged her contributions to problems. For example, telling me that we together as parents should take a specific stand on a topic with our daughter and then, when our daughter pressures W, W caves in or sets me up to be the bad guy ("Ask your father...") so the "team" crumbles pretty quickly. And, just the fact that W agreed to come back for a 2nd visit and said "I like this MC" are huge steps for my W.
Definitely WASing here and some MLCing (gray hair noticing, tattoo wanting, etc.). Also, given W's social anxiety and past trauma, my sense is W just believes "life" doesn't work out her way and neither will this....and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point. I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.
You're right. The MC like any therapist can make a huge difference and is a very personal choice. Tough to have the time, money, and stamina to weed through them or restart the process if you get the wrong one. We'll see how this goes and thanks for the thread reference. I agree that is a good benchmark for what to look for in a good counselor. Be well!
Hey MrP, thanks for checking in. I continue to move forward with my process and have filed D. As many here understand this is a tumultuous time and it's taken a lot of energy and focus to remain emotionally resilient for myself and my kids. Being sober has helped enormously as has prioritizing sleep, fitness, and a healthy diet.
I spend a lot of time with my kids especially on weekends and this weekend will be no different. Love it. They are still unaware of what is happening and it breaks my heart to think of what's ahead so I focus on the present.
Highs and lows. I've strayed at times from behaving in the way I want to but each time I find myself re-centering faster, like a rubber band whose elasticity increases with time. Perhaps this is the long-awaited detachment taking hold.
Summer is around the corner and I couldn't be more excited. A good friend just bought a small boat and we plan to spearfish up and down the coast all summer long. I want to teach the kids to surf this year too, something that I spent years doing and brought me a lot of happiness. Camping trips are booked.
So that's all for now. I still check the boards weekly and appreciate you asking after me. Thanks again to everyone who has weighed in and continues to check in.
Also, H agreed to a R-talk for this weekend. Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
Most people arriving here think that talking will help solve this. I do not recall anyone here ever being successful at that. That is why one of the IMPORTANT DBing rules is to avoid INITIATING RELATIONSHIP TALKS.
The successful ones STFU and listen and observe and change the way they interact and the way they behave when they are around the wayward spouse.
He blames you for his unhappiness. The only way for him to stop blaming you for this unhappiness is you giving him enough time and space away from you to realize he is unhappy without you and start missing you. He needs to feel like he lost you.
Friday, text him "Something important came up and I will not be able to get together with you this weekend. TTYL"
This is intentionally vague. Do you think this statement will peak his interest??? If you do not engage with him all weekend, who do you think he will be thinking about?
You are focused on the wrong person. Focus all of your energy on YOU and making positive changes to your behavior. How hard is it to change just one of your habits? I bet pretty hard. Attempting to change another persons (husbands) behaviors is almost impossible.
PS:
I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. It was the best worse thing that ever happened to me.
Ive been struggling with depression today. i keep going back to the night before my wife said she was divorcing me. we had an argument about christmas cards, every year we give each other christmas cards. she knew that I had already filled out my card and we both usually write a personal letter inside the card. she hadn't filled hers out and i asked her about it since it was 2 days after christmas and she started complaining about giving each other christmas cards that it was unnecessary. she then said she wasnt going to fill out my card because it wouldnt be a good card in her current mood and said she needed to be alone and stormed off upstairs. Im very intuitive and i felt something was off for 2 months so i followed her upstairs.
i need to note that i suffer from panic disorder and my anxiety was off the charts because of her behavior for the past 2 months. I needed answers because i couldnt take the lack of communication from her. I asked her if we were ok and she said yes, clearly a lie.
I know it doesnt matter now because its the past but i wonder where would i be at right now if we dint have that argument. more then likely right where im at now only at a later date. I keep putting the blame on myself even though i know it shouldn't be.
I feel like im living in a hotel room in my new apartment. it doesnt feel like home. I know its going to take time. I feel like a alcoholic trying not to drink with a bottle of whisky in front of me. my wife being the whisky. I keep wanting to talk to her and wonder what shes doing when the kids arent there. Im not going to call her and im trying not to think about her.
Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
MamaG,
I'm not sure what you can ask about the R, but let me offer a few thoughts on the communication parts since I’m a man of few words myself. It is NOT that I have nothing to say or that I have no emotion to express. I usually think. Me personally I don’t always think in words, but in concepts. And then it take effort to put concepts, thoughts or feelings into words. Like most men, I don’t process by talking about it. I retreat to think about it. Or retreat to examine how I feel about it. Then I have to translate it into words. Don’t misinterpret silences. They generally won’t mean the same thing as if another woman gave you silence. For me that would often just mean I’m working through it.
I found in my reading this year that this was described reasonably well by a couple of John Gray books. They offer handy practical guides to translating behavior and speech patterns of the sexes.
- Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - What you Mother couldn’t tell you and your Father didn’t know
And coincidentally my reading of TSquared2’s threads tonight included this post about men, talking, and feelings. Perhaps you will find it of value.
