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A Message from Michele
Active Threads | Active Posts | Unanswered Today | Since Yesterday | This Week
For Newcomers
4 minutes ago
Hi TS,

That is really interesting and congratulations-- that is probably a pretty major 180 for you. And I can say that I could imagine if I was in your wife's shoes, your calmness when I'm feeling out of control might be infuriating... but from a DB perspective maybe in a good way as it shows she's registering your 180. If that is the case, maybe continuing on your path of calmness and 180s is actually the better route than backing her up-- you are definitely the best judge of that.

But if I could make a tiny suggestion:

Originally Posted by ToSmile
After the restaurant manager left our table, my wife mentioned that its she who heard wrongly. I told her I know. But looking at her reply and attitude, it does not seems that she is intending to apologize also thus just let it slide. No point holding on to it. Then my wife tried to bait me by saying "Well, her attitude is just like someone". I just let it slide and pretend I never hear that.


maybe instead of the "let it slide" elaboration you could have left it at "I know"? Validating and then staying out of it might help to *not* fan her flames? Being told to calm down and let it go when you're spoiling for a fight is like pouring gasoline on a fire (I've totally been there). Though of course you were right to step in when she was turning on the kids.

I used to think that the kids seeing their dad being an a**hole and me letting it slide was detrimental to them and so I called out his behavior every time. Now I just validate and generally stay out of it and not only does it happen way less frequently but it generally peters out very quickly after one comment rather than escalating. And, I'm not letting him use me as a foil for his anger and confusion.
37 1,244 Read More
Midlife Crisis
14 minutes ago
Westo, what a nice update and summary of your situation. There are a couple of things to your situation that I think bear pointing out for someone new to this experience. Your husband never ceased being financially responsible and he was not cruel in his treatment of you (though I'm sure the pain was very real nonetheless). I think that speaks to the foundation that still remained for you both.
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Surviving the Big D
14 minutes ago
Yes, many women will use the "abuse" cry to their advantage where there was no abuse. Like I said, nothing you described sounds remotely like abuse. I was just trying to see if SHE had some underlying reason (like being abused in childhood) that would make her more sensitive to normal conflict, or if you can be a grumpy guy (again, not abuse, but someone very sensitive might react to a critical grumpy person ). My boyfriend for example has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder and when he's in a snit about something that's not right in the order of his universe he can be grouchy and irritable. Doesn't phase me but someone with a history of abuse might be triggered by it.

And I agree that you should NOT do anything that looks like an admission of guilt. Heck, I would have pulled over and grabbed my kid's leg too and said stop kicking your sister.
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Surviving the Big D
16 minutes ago
Great to hear from you AS. It is nice to read updates way after the sitches have ended as it'll give a perspective that there will be light at the end of the tunnel. I especially appreciate that you are still here helping newbies out with their sitches. You helped me so much two years ago so the newbies are in good hands :-)
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For Newcomers
22 minutes ago
How about:

Living: W it’s not a good idea for you to come home because I will not live in an open marriage.

W: I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Living: you know exactly what I’m talking about

End of exchange.
53 1,206 Read More
For Newcomers
26 minutes ago
HJ,

I just want agree with you on your Alpha point. It’s not about being macho, shooting guns etc. Its about knowing your value, being direct, decisive, leading and going for what you want in life without compromising your beliefs and values.

I do want to disagree with your 4th point. Sandi is actually one of the ones who says she can’t ever remember anybody reconciling in in house separation and she’s been here the longest. I also don’t think she was ever in in house separation. Txhubby was for like 4 years and he admitted it almost killed him. So I would say that in 10 years here you are the only one that was in in house separation who didn’t almost die, it’s logical to say IHS rarely works.
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Surviving the Big D
42 minutes ago
Her abuse narrative is par for the course. This comes up in one way or another in the vast, vast majority of WW-initiated separations. You are the one who is feeding this garbage by constantly bringing it up here, in counseling, in your head or wherever else. And talking about this in any way in front of a counselor is a monumentally stupid thing for you to do. You really need to never, ever entertain or discuss this topic again. Ever.

I can tell you something - she doesn't even believe this or else she would actually take action against you, but instead all she does is use this to beat you into a corner. I have seen WW do this same thing with wild accusations against their nice guy husbands when the WW is literally dating sex offenders. And I don't mean I saw this once, this happens so much its cliché! This abuse narrative is her best, most effective weapon against you. That is all it is, and you are the one who keeps sticking your nose on the barrel. If OM wanted to take her to Hawaii for 3 weeks she would happily drop the kids off at your place on the way to the airport.

I understand you have a lot of anxiety and fear. You can either tackle this fear head on, or hide. I don't think you are ready to face it, so I suggest you hide. I will tell you how, its really easy! Get a note card and write this down:

Message received:
1-logistic information
2-delete

Message sent:
A- "kid pickup will be at X:XX o clock at XXXXX location"
B- "noted"
C- "I will refer that to my lawyer"



Then, from now on you should not say a word to her, all communication in writing. When she sends you something, decide whether it is type 1 or type 2. If its type 1, then you can respond with either A, B or C.

I'm not even joking about this. I'm completely serious.
31 183 Read More
For Newcomers
58 minutes ago
Originally Posted by LH19

What are you trying to accomplish by calling her out on her lies and affairs?


Don't know... probably why I have not done it yet...

Part of it is my nature to confront BS, but reading DB, seems like not the right thing. Part of me wants to just signal that I'm not stupid, and that she can't expect to come talk or move back in, and get away with it, so she really needs to put in the work to clean her sh*t up rather than lie about it, and making things worse.

Maybe there's a more positive phrasing of it smile I'll go re-read the DB chapters.
53 1,206 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
My own thoughts on some of the issues raised here, and on some things that occur to me, in no particular order:

First, blu:

Quote
I am okay with people not agreeing with my position and what I write here, but I am not interested in arguing about it or arguing with any of you. It's just not a good use of time. I am only here for one reason. I am here because my BD was the hardest time in my life -- my sitch was extreme and not just a little bump in my M or brief parting or ea -- and the lovely vets and these threads 5 years ago kept me going in those very dark days. So I share my story for anyone that can take comfort in that. I also look for people here that may need something that I can offer them. That's it. I am not here to be right, to tell anyone they are wrong, to tell someone that they have to do something, or to cause any more fear, shame or hurt. If you are reading this and even questioning yourself and how you post, then I hope you will at least spend more time and thoughtful care as you post moving forward.


I thought this was a really valuable post overall, and not just the part quoted above. Thank you for it. I particularly like the emphasis on remembering what we are doing here. Yes, alot of us are here to find help ourselves, in dealing with our own personal situations, by finding folks to listen and provide support, and, if possible, to save our marriages. But when we venture forth onto others' threads, no matter how much that process may be a learning one valuable for our own situations, it is important to keep in mind that the person on whose thread you are posting is in a dark, hard, place, just like you are (or were) and that they, too, need help... and that due to the variations in everyone's situation, the help they need may not be exactly the type of help you needed. Advice can be a dangerous thing, and, as both an advisor and as the advised, i always (these days, at least) try to keep in mind that 1) everybody's situation is different but that 2) you can usually find some grain of commonality or helpful advice even in the most seemingly different situation. The key is being able to find those areas of commonality, both when you are providing advice/support to someone, and when you are reading other folks' advice to you.

Second... Yes, temperaments vary widely on here, as they do everywhere. We are all human. Some people are more frank than others, some more confrontational, some more nurturing, etc. Also, Interacting on social media or via email or via any electronic media for that matter is hard... You are lacking inflection and body language and expression and, in many cases, context. The written word has a natural tendency to come across as colder... more abrupt. Misunderstandings and ruffled feathers occur. I always tell my boys this: Don't type it to someone in an email or text or on a chat board if you wouldn't say it to their face, and on the other side if someone types something to you that angers you, don't automatically assume they meant you ill.

I will say that, yes I, as i have seen others mention on this thread, was angered on a couple of occasions by posters being what I thought was too confrontational-- in particular taking what i thought were "shots" at my W after we were (or at least after i THOUGHT we were, lol) on the road to reconciling. (For those not familiar with my sitch, i did in fact DB/save my marriage, and my W and I are pretty much fully reconciled now-- prolly better than we have ever been.) But in the end you can try to understand where others are coming from-- when ones MR has been ended by an unfaithful spouse, and NOT reconciled, those scars can be life-altering, can last a looooong time, and, yes, can impact, for better or worse, one's outlook on life, love, marriage, and how an unfaithful spouse should be treated. Doesn't mean you need reject those folks' suggestions out of hand-- there are cautionary tales for them to tell, and their experiences are as valuable as the folks who didn't "make it through" to reconcilliation. You just need to know how to separate the wheat from the chaffe, and it also helps to try to thicken your skin up and have some patience with others.

Third, i, too, have noticed the M/F "skew" on this site, and it has been noted by others, as well (Even Sandi2, IIRC). It's a larger sociological question, obviously, and i have heard it discussed by Esther Pearle as well, but for some reason, as infidelity has increased in general, the rate of INCREASE in infidelity by wives/women has outpaced the rate of increase by men. Perhaps a bit of a catch-up... whatever. For whatever reason, the syndrome Sandi2 identifies as the "Wayward Wife" seems to predominate on this website. I have never done a tally but I'd bet that 75% of the "cases" on here are LBHs, and, of those 2/3rds or more involve WWs-- women in the throws of an emotional or physical affair who have decided "enough is enough" with their MR and are going through all the stages and steps and scripts that seem to be drawn from a common playbook. I am NOT saying women are more prone to cheat when i say this... just that it shows up WAY more than any other pattern on this website for some reason. As such, the testosterone level probably gets a little high sometimes, but i think the women do have something valuable to offer the men and vice versa. Some of my most valued mentors on this site have been women-- Sandi2, artista, ginger, 25yrsMLC. Having said that-- I am a firm believer that men gotta be men. And by this i don't mean the blustering, swaggering, "bro" caricature that has been mentioned, but rather a strong, confident, assertive (not necessarily aggressive, though that has its place in rare instances), capable MAN. Not a lunkhead, a MAN. We're very different than women, and that's a very good thing... for both sexes.

I certainly can't speak for all women or even most women. All i can tell you is that my life experience has been that the majority of women I have encountered in social or romantic spheres have been significantly more responsive (not submissive, but responsive) to alpha male behavior. And, again, by "Alpha" i dont' mean domineering lunkhead behavior, but strong, confident, assured behavior and interaction and leadership. I've seen it with myself, i've seen it with friends, and I have seen it most recently and especially with my wife (who is herself a strong and outgoing personality and a high sex-drive woman who can be, herself, forward at times). When i rediscovered my inner "alpha"... which i had lost somewhere along the way, the difference in my W's attitude toward me changed profoundly. The keystone moment here obviously being when i had had enough of her WW shenanigans and walked out, leaving her behind to continue pursuing my own life, which had become quite awesome by then-- but i continue to see it to this day. One trap into which i had fallen over the years was indecision, overanalyzing, etc. I don't even remember exactly what it was but a few months back someone texted me to do something when W and were sitting on the couch together (she saw the incoming text) and i immediately dicated back "Sure, see you in 30 minutes." Her eyes got wide and she leaned into me saying... "Who ARE you... look at you all decisive now!" Long story short, i did NOT make it to meet my friend in 30 minutes... it was somewhat later than that. AT ANY RATE... this is not to say that i think one, man or woman, is better than the other, or that women cant be leaders... BUT... in matters of the heart, and i wholeheartedly agree with her here, Sandi2 has said over and over that woman cannot be amorously attracted to a man she does not respect. It is the loss of respect that is at the root of a WW's rebellion and mindset. Reclaiming one's "alpha" self can be an critical element in reclaiming such respect. If we jest with each other about "getting your balls back" well, that's what we men do-- significantly more often than not.... But i can allow that one needs to know one's audience, that someone who just got dumped just MAY not want to come here and hear that first thing, and that there is MUCH value in getting to know someone (at least insofar as that as possible here) before assuming that level of familiarity.

Fourth-- My pet peeve with this place was always the contingent who insisted that "There can be no reconcilliation without separation" and that "IF the process is ever to play out to reconcilliation, it HAS TO take YEARS" etc etc. Simply not true. Not with me, not with TxHubby, not with Sandi2. All reconciled. Yes, I left. Briefly. Two weeks. That had to happen. Yes, TxHubby effectively "separated" in-house (VERY difficult thing to accomplish). But neither required actual separation and neither took years. (I was 15 months from BD to full-on piecing/reconciling, but the "Active" part of the affair--an EA in my case-- was over less than 5 months after BD and we were making real progress just 9 months after BD). I say this not to call out the folks with this mindset (and, to be fair, there are probably at least as many cases where their pattern of reconcilliation holds true) but to again emphasize that EVERYONE'S SITCH IS DIFFERENT.

Fifth-- Pet peeve number two, and here I am agreeing with ManyWorries here: The "you can't hold out hope for reconcilliation" paradigm, also espoused as some form of "you must completely let her go." Yes, in some respects, this is true... namely that you need to make peace with the possibility that your MR MIGHT NOT survive, if you are to successfully DB. To me, however, to say you should abandon all efforts aimed at "saving the marriage" is nonsensical. This is, after all, "Divorce Busting", and MWD has made her career on saving marriages and busting divorces. I see no inconstancy in, on the one hand, making peace with all outcomes while, at the same time, striving within the parameters of DBing to save your marriage and, all else being equal, recognizing that as the desired outcome.

Sixth-- Yes, absolutely true-- reconcilliation/piecing can NOT begin and has NO HOPE while an affair of any sort continues. The affair has GOT TO end if the marriage is to be saved.

Finally, I have really valued this place, and people here. I think it's safe to say that, at one time or another, I have gleaned something useful from everyone who contributed to my threads, and several on whose threads i posted, even the ones with whom i frequently (and loudly, emotionally and, sad to say, sometimes obnoxiously) disagreed. My MR is reborn, better than ever, and i can say without a doubt that it was a blessing from God, and part of the only path that would have gotten me to where i am, that I was led to this site. I hope it continues in existence for many years...
40 484 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Quote
It seems to me like H has rewritten our entire marriage in his head, and has gone as far as to say he doesn’t like how I do stuff, thinks I’m controlling, etc. He says he likes me, but doesn’t love me


LostRose I think all of us get this in some form or another and I am sorry you have to experience the rewriting of your marriage. One thing I have realized is that whether it is true or not, in their mind this is exactly what the marriage was to them at the time they tell you this. It hurts because while it might be their reality, it is not ours.

Quote
he wasn’t physically attracted to me—he said he was attracted to who I was as a person. at this point I don’t have any reason to suspect an affair, but I do think H might be infatuated with someone, based off of a few clues I’ve picked up on. His friend had also told me that H felt guilty about being attracted to someone, but didn’t elaborate.


I hope I am wrong but this sends up huge red flags for me and you have to be prepared. You just listed plenty of reasons to suspect there is another person. Not in all cases but in a majority here it is because another person is involved.

Quote
So anyways, about a week after BD, I moved out.


Is this something you wanted to do or was it just to please him and show him how much you want things to work out?

Quote
H has been the stay home parent since the oldest was a baby, and I did not want to disrupt the kids lives.

He doesn't want to be married, he is rewriting history, likely there is someone else involved, he talked to his friend and not you about relationship problems. Now tell me who is disrupting the kids lives. I would have suggested you didn't move from the house but since you did make sure the children know you will always be there for them. I am not sure how old they are, but the most important thing you can do is make sure they are physically, emotionally, and mentally taken care of.

Read everything you can here and listen to people who are far more experienced than I am. Just know that there are people her that want you to succeed.
2 29 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Thanks so much for checking in, Kristin!! That really helps... and in fact I (somehow, surprisingly) still feel pretty chill about him being gone and in her city. He's been in decent contact since he left, texting and called a couple of times-- including once when I was at work yesterday. I didn't answer (was in a meeting) but texted to see what was up and he said "just letting you know I arrived. Nothing else-- have a good day and tell the girls I love them." Which is unusual, since (a) he'd texted already a number of times since landing and getting to his hotel, so I did know he'd arrived and (b) unusual to call just to chat with me (not when he thought he might get to talk to the kids). I didn't call him back, though I did let the girls call him when I picked them up after school.

As I type this I know it sounds like I'm putting a lot of energy/emphasis into his behavior, BUT... it is nice but not like super important to me, and I'm not trying to analyze what it might or might not mean-- just noting that it happened and is a bit different than in the past. Maybe I'll feel differently if he goes dark, but generally I do feel like I'm starting to detach a bit. (Is this what it feels like? Or do I need a 2x4 to stop pretending I'm doing oh so well?? smile )
53 1,105 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Felt the same when reading NMMNG but as AS said, I also learned a few things that were applicable. I think it was Steve here who recommended a book called Intimacy and Desire by Dr. David Schnarch. That book has helped me a lot. Currently reading Passionate Marriage by the same author and so far also interesting.
53 1,206 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Thanks AS,

In hindsight, it was silly of me to ask that question. I´ve sometimes been in situations where I need to answer something fast and I´ve thought to myself I wish I could discuss with you guys first. So I was trying to think of scenarios like that. And I thought of the worst possible scenario which would be I get a call from her, crying and saying she has nowhere to go on that day and what I would do in that case. Since she has no friends or family living here who can help, I don´t know if I could have just hung up the phone on her and tell her to deal with it, even if she fired me as husband.

But a scenario like that won´t happen. She wouldn´t wait until Feb 29 to tell me that, she knows of the chances that I would say no and wouldn´t risk being homeless. So most likely, if she´ll ask, she would ask in December or beginning of January and then I don´t have a problem telling her that this is her problem since she still has time to ask someone else for help. So I´m sure she´ll find some solution.

I would never extend the rental period for this one, it´s terribly expensive to rent this apartment for her and the only reason I did that in the first place was to get rid of her. After she brought another man to our home, I didn´t want her here anymore and her staying with me wasn´t helping either of us.

I have been 100% dark so yeah, I think she must miss me a little bit at least. And the pug. And for a long time after she moved out, she would text me about random things constantly. Seems like she was trying to make up reasons to be in touch. At one point when she asked for a restaurant recommendation I told her to stop writing to me unless it´s important. Interesting to think about what makes a person in her state of mind hit rock bottom. She has nothing from her old life left.

Yes, I did have the photo shoot on Monday but I messed it up in the preparations a bit. I was drinking 2-3 gallons of water and then on Sunday, the day before the shoot I could only drink 5dl(2 cups) of water the entire day. I do that to get the lean look for the photos. So after almost zero carbs the entire week I was supposed to carb load on Sunday but I misunderstood the instructions. I thought they meant that you were supposed to eat 800 grams of carbs that day but when I looked closer, he meant you should eat carbs and see how you look throughout the day, if you start looking bloated you stop immediately. He just meant he eats 800 grams but the guy is twice my size. So the next day I was bloated for the photo shoot.

However, it still looked great compared to how I used to look and the photographer was much more pro than I thought. He knew all these tricks to make me look good. Asking me to blow air out the side of my mouth and sniff in. Had no idea why but when I saw the pictures they looked so cool! I went and bought almost a whole new wardrobe for the shoot and tried on different clothes. But he knew exactly what I was after. He took pictures as I was getting dressed and my muscles looked like they were popping out because of how I hold my arms when I put on a shirt for example. As I was there, I noticed he had pictures of several famous Scandinavian actors so I realized he is the real deal. Taking pics of action stars certainly had given him the experience to make mine look as cool as possible

Not sure what to do with the photos though. I have still only seen a few, he is editing many of them and will send them to me within a week.
29 488 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
I am advising you to stay calm and detached when interacting with. Not everything she says will require immediate responses. If she is opening up a bit, let her talk, validate feelings, and listen!!

If she brings up talking with you, her, and the therapist again just slow play it and say "Yea maybe that would work" and see if she takes the lead.

Keep focusing on your 180's, worry about your side of the fence now Firemann! Stay positive.
5 130 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
K,

Way too much focus on your WAH. Waste of time speculating.
63 628 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Thank you all for the responses. I am practicing self-control and have not reached out to him. I'm really trying to stick to the LRT. I have been keeping busy, reaching out to new friends, going new places, etc. I'm meditating daily and really working on shifting my internal dialogue to one of more self-compassion. I think it's working. I woke up this morning and for the first time in WEEKS (maybe even months), my first thoughts were not about my husband or our situation! I can't even remember what it was, just something mundane and "normal", but it was so freeing to not be automatically consumed by this.

I then went about my day and while out shopping, my husband texted me! He said, "So I know you said we could meet to catch up but not discuss anything...my thing is I would like that, but I'm not sure it wouldn't come up...I'm down to meet for a coffee or food to talk sometime, but vice versa I wouldn't want to talk about the opposite, i.e. talking me out of it which might also come up." I haven't responded yet. I was hoping I could get some input from the group here. Thoughts on how to respond??
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For Newcomers
2 hours ago
Originally Posted by LovingIt
Started reading No More Mr Nice Guy, but after the first chapter, I feel like it doesn't apply to me as much. I've always been argumentative and confrontational (if you read my back story). I'll keep reading the book, maybe I can still pick up some bits and pieces of how to be strong and respectful.


It's a great book to read even for those who don't identify with NGS. I didn't feel like it was really describing me, but there was still info in it that I found applicable.

I read a lot of books after BD, some of it I agreed with it, some I didn't, but overall I learned a ton of stuff that has helped me not just with my GF but also in my relationships with friends and family.
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For Newcomers
2 hours ago
Please start a new thread and link them together.
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For Newcomers
2 hours ago
L,

What are you trying to accomplish by calling her out on her lies and affairs?
53 1,206 Read More
For Newcomers
2 hours ago
Originally Posted by crdcheck
Candidly, I really want to say "are you sure?" but know that's a terrible idea.


Correct, she's still "sure". When she changes her mind she will make sure you know.

Quote
Also, our 10-year anniversary is Nov 14... we may technically make that. Wish I could say something.


Technically my XW and I made 20 and then 21 after BD, after S but before D. Looking back I see how completely meaningless those anniversaries were.

Quote
How do you define "date" in this context? I don't want anything serious but I want to be able to go out with other people. Can you clarify?


Man if I had a dollar for every LBS that just wants to go hang out with women and then in short order ends up in a new R that they aren't ready for! Just be careful, everyone's timeline is different but rarely has an LBS healed enough for a new R in less than a year post-BD.

Quote
Hopefully I recognize the outreach. I mean, I'm not giving much of an opening. For example, my parents are taking her (used to be our) dog for Thanksgiving (I have no idea how that happened, waiting for my parents to explain) and W asked me if I would take her for a day between when W takes D4 to her hometown and when my parents come to town. That doesn't feel like outreach to me but could it be?


If by "outreach" you mean her expressing interest in recon, then rest assured it's not going to be anything confusing or requiring interpretation. She will make it very clear to you. You don't have to leave her an opening, she will make one. The dogsitting thing is probably just what it appears- she's looking for a dogsitter, free if possible.
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For Newcomers
2 hours ago
WAH has plans for all this to end. He's going to quit (eventually) his 2nd job once he pays everything off. I'm thinking this will take at least 4 months which pushes us to a year separated by then.

I've read that likely WAH thrives on this, that he loves it much like I did at work. I, the LBS, held him back from being all that he could be (true). That feeling of success and accomplishment feels wonderful. He hasn't had this in oh forever.

When I was in that place I got sick of it when the high of the new job wore off. What was once fun and exciting became drudgery. Working 12 hours a day made me feel important but later I just wanted to go home and watch tv.
63 628 Read More
For Newcomers
2 hours ago
CC,

You’ll know her intentions. I will be more then kid related stuff. Probably a trip down memory lane. Maybe innuendos.

Just being single things are going to happen if you have an active social life. I’m talking about getting into a serious relationship.
78 1,037 Read More
For Newcomers
2 hours ago
As if that post wasn't long enough, I haven't posted any update and it feels like my sitch is on rollercoaster extreme mode.

The conversation initiated by W about me leaving never resumed. After she went out with her coworkers the next day, the following day (Friday) I went to a double feature at the movies. It is basically impossible to use the three tickets per week that come with the membership. W was standing at the door asking where I was going, why so early, was I going alone. I simply said I'm meeting a friend, see ya later, and closed the door. I did invite a new friend, but he couldn't make it. I was gone from about 5pm to 11pm. Anyway, W knows about my movie membership and assumed I was going on a date with a new "friend" to the movies. I only know this because her sister called me to tell me she had told her I was seeing someone and just went on a date to the movies, and that I had taken my wedding ring off. I did take my ring off a couple weeks ago (after she had taken off hers), because every time I saw it on my hand it was like a gut punch, even when I had managed not to be thinking about it otherwise. So into my nightstand drawer it went. I didn't even think of it like a signal I was going to date. Now I'm wondering if it was a mistake? I just didn't think much of it, sometimes I leave my ring off anyway, before all this. Regardless, W hasn't said anything to me about thinking I'm seeing someone (last year she did), just her sister. She has however made it clear she is tracking me on the credit cards when I go out and gave herself away that she was frustrated she saw nothing from my night out on Friday (because I have caught on to this).

On the potential OM front, I am still so far in the dark. I saw nothing suspicious all weekend, she didn't see anyone or go out, and I was honestly ready to declare on Sunday morning that the investigation has turned up absolutely nothing in a month, and it's time to consider the possibility that there really is no A. And then JUST in time, W finally slips, just a little. She went to the grocery store, innocent enough, but she was gone too long. When she got back, it turned out she had also gone to a sex store (very strange, atypical behavior. We have gone to one maybe twice that I can remember). Even more insane, she says they had a BOGO half off sale, and gifts me the other item! and says here's a coupon in case you want to buy more. ??? As we're standing there talking about this, within a few minutes of her getting home, her phone rings. She looks at it and says ugh, I don't want to talk to her right now (meaning her sister, who has been having her own drama over the weekend). I said, O, SIL about her sitch? And she said yes. Well, that was quite easy to verify. I asked her sister if she had just called and she said no. Finally, I caught her in a lie that was 100% proven. That said, it could mean nothing, who knows why she didn't bother or want to say who called. But then, she says her car has been having some trouble and she wants to go drive it around. She was gone for about 30 min maybe, I assume to call the person back. So that was definitely some very strange, red flag behavior. However, that is all I've got. I have been watching and watching for texting, phone calls, coming home late, etc and there is just nothing. I do leave her alone most of the time, but still.

Last night she called me on my way home from IC and asked if I could start dinner because she had got off work late and just now got to the gym. I immediately was suspicious, thinking she was finally getting lazy. I said I wasn't home yet but I can start the pot. She didn't ask where I was. She got home when she said she would and looked like she really had been at the gym, red in the face etc. She talked about her workout and who she saw there. Why she got off work late. If it's all lies, I give it a 10/10. And then she went to take a bath, didn't close the door, and then wanted me to come in and show me some new music she has found during all of her early bedtimes alone in her new bedroom (i added that part). I can confirm I hear her listening to this music and audiobooks she talks about. So there she is completely naked playing me all this music and showing me her phone to see the artists without seeming to be concerned about a message coming through or anything. Overall, she was acting really nice. She even said she had a good day and was in a good mood and had slept really well. No complaining about work.

She has been telling me about a new assignment and how she might have to leave for a few days in the coming year for exercises. But doesn't know when, only the months. The first one sounds like it will be within a month. Suddenly, it's not so convenient not to have a spouse home for the dogs. I do not know if she is accepting that she cannot force me to leave or if she has any uncertainty about it, or if she will come back demanding it again tomorrow.

My IC says I should give her choices, to make her feel less trapped, and she can be the one to choose. First choice is try to work things out, at least go to counseling and find a mutual agreement to R or D. Second, if she says no to one, then agree to D and I won't fight her on the house if she agrees to me not moving out until I graduate in May. Third, if she cannot accept anything other than immediate separation, then she is the one to leave. I mostly agree with my IC that there is no real way W can make me leave any time soon. In answer to one of Sandi's questions, W has an obligation to support her dependents and gets paid more to do so. IC says D takes 3 months, I assume this is after you file. If W wants no lawyers, she will have to do all the work of filling out the paperwork first and itemizing everything. And I know it is often rejected for silly revisions that must be made to form. So by the time we are even D, it will probably be pretty close to me graduating. Of course, W only cares about her emotions, and wants me to vanish overnight, that is all she will accept. What I do not agree with IC on, is presenting her with these choices, at least right now. Mostly because it seems to violate DB. If she is in this fantasy world, where nothing logical matters, what good are the choices. IC also said I should make it clear I am not dating someone. I am not going to try and pretend I am or anything, but I think it is beneficial for W to be unsure what I am doing or if I am still even wanting R. Rather than offer her reassurance. You guys can tell me what you think, but considering I agree with Sandi that I need to just stop hanging onto the MR, it really makes no sense.

W seems content with her new living situation in the basement, wants to cook but not eat together, and spends most of her time at home in her room with the door closed. However, she doesn't have any curtains and I can see in her window if I am in the yard with the dogs. It seems she just lays there watching tv and going to sleep really early (she does get up really early). But 99% of the time, I am not watching so who knows. If she is not harassing me, or trying to make things miserable, this is definitely more comfortable than being displaced to my grandmother's. But emotionally, I know detachment will be a lot harder. But I am serious about what I said earlier on forgetting about working on the MR and caring what W thinks or does. I am not going to be afraid anymore. I envision my new life without her everyday and what I want it to look like, and approach everything with that goal in mind. It is exciting to be able to have full control over your future. On my way out the door, my IC said "You know, the holidays are almost here, who really wants to get divorced over the holidays?". I guess W can prove how much of a grinch she really is. She even likes to say that she doesn't like Christmas. But I just don't buy it. I don't buy any of it. I have realized I am more of a saver than I thought. I feel so much desperation to rescue W from her sadness and hurt and bad choices. I know that I cannot. But I really think she's in there somewhere, and is worth saving. So I have to work constantly to change that mindset.
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2 hours ago
OK cwarrior - maybe I am temp checking too much.

W and I met yesterday at a bank so we could endorse a check together from a joint account. We left and I had some time to kill. She asked what I was doing next and I said I was going to eat tacos. She got all quiet and rather then leaving, i asked if she wanted to join. She said yes!

Lunch was a little awkward but positive for the most part. She was telling me about her new part time job and how she was looking forward to a concert coming up. I told her with all the work she is doing - a concert seemed like it'd be fun. I was pretty happy during lunch as work was going well that day and the weather was perfect. I did notice something in her from across the table - she just seemed old and tired.Her face had this resting scowl. She asked if I test drove some new cars (I told my son I did previously) and I said yes, but havent decided on anything.

Went home and I wrapped up paperwork for the attorney. I ended up going through our cell bill and i came to find out she was talking to her EA all the way back until Sept. I originally thought is was January-March. Nope! SEPT! Unreal. She ended up calling me about our kids and picked up i was mad. I told her I discovered her EA was earlier than originally calculated and she apologized.

Weird thing was - I was ok. Definitely felt betrayal, but I was ok. We had some small talk and she said she'd like to talk about that with myself and a therapist. In that moment, I couldn't decide if she was telling me what I wanted to hear or maybe she was opening up. I started flashing back. I just remembered things like how she frequently scorned me for waking her up at 3am earlier this year when I was flooded with anxiety. I just started accepting things for the way they were. I couldn't believe sheput me through what she put me through this year.

I need to drop the rope. There are times I pray to forgive her and have some way of starting over. I need to NOT BE SO AFRAID OF THE D.
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2 hours ago
Originally Posted by BenB
Thanks AS, but I don´t agree about the rescuing. That´s not my intention with what I wrote.


I may have misunderstood then, were you asking about the timing on giving her the rest of the 15k? I thought you were thinking about trying to find a place for her, or extend the arrangement on where she's staying now.

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She´s no fool so I´m sure she´ll have a better plan than waiting until the last minute to contact me for help.


Well hopefully she is smarter than that but that's the exact scenario that landed my girlfriend in my house for a few months! Waited until the last possible second to renew her lease only to discover she couldn't, and then couldn't find another place right away. This was a few years ago, she's a bit wiser now!

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When she wrote "maybe just 15 minutes" it was obvious this was just to sooth her anxiety. She didn´t ask to come over to talk for example. She just wanted to see the pug and play family for a moment to help quiet her mind.


Hard to say, I mean she could genuinely miss you, that's usually what happens when you minimize contact like you've done. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts pinging you more. But it's still going to take a good, long while before she really hits bottom.

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Not seeing her makes it MUCH easier to move on.


I don't wish separation on anyone, but I know that it helped me a lot as well. It was very painful at first but once I started getting used to being alone and found things to do to fill the time I actually started enjoying it.

Did you have your photo shoot yet?
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