It's great to have a forum where their are people who are dealing with or have dealt with what you are going through, cause unless people have been through it or are going through it, they don't understand and u get the eye roll.
First, how do I thank you for the detailed response?
You are most welcome.
Originally Posted by MamaG
When you say, "A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority.", could this be a very controlling and particular parent who dictated his decisions instead of considering his opinion? Or would it be more of an absent parent who didn't play ball with him because they were working?
Or both. It could be person or persons in a position of authority. Parent(s) are usually the most likely. Uncles, Aunts, Grandparents, as well as teachers, coaches, priests/ministers, and such. Someone trusted and charged with the youngster’s care. A trust they abuse and twist.
The trauma(s) can be a singular or few events, or a long time (think years) of neglect, ignoring, abandonment, etc. Or both. And even more. My XW’s trauma(s), as much as I’ve been able to deduce, is horrible and twisted. An uncle’s actions when she was 7 and 13, known and covered up by aunt, grandparents, and parents. Coupled with a childhood of not being allowed to have anyone over to the house, or to go hardly ever go out. Basically no friends. So incredible different than how I was raised.
Children are very ego-centric; the world revolves around them. As such, they internalize these trauma(s), and they blame themselves. For to their immature minds, it must be their fault. Any questions they have would be to the very authority figure who inflicted it. So, no clarity or answers for the youngster, just their self-crafted story of “why”. Their young minds unable to grasp such troubling concepts, push it all down, bury it, deny it, elsewise their psyche would shatter.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Recently, he mentioned that he attempted to commit suicide at 16 (I met him at 17) but I don't know what drove the attempt. Thankfully, he didn't. Should I try to probe to learn the reason?
My advice would be to allow H to discuss as he feels. When he feels safe to explore. Do not push for any answers. When/if he brings stuff up, just validate his feelings is all. No other probing. Validating, will let H realize someone hears him, and he might say more as he uncovers more.
However, the LBS usually gets painted as the bad guy in the MLCer’s narrative. The crisis person projects upon and blames their spouse, unable to realize the true cause of their feelings.
Interestingly, affairs play a part in the horrible path. The MLCer crafts justifications to stray from their spouse. Remember, this is an emotional train wreck the crisis person is embroiled in. The affair partner is usually an affair down, a much lesser person than the spouse they are tossing aside. The AP is cast into role of parent or long ago authority figure, all quite unknowingly to the MLCer by the way. They use the affair partner. The AP is a band-aid, a symptom, of their deep trauma(s). The MLCer uses their AP as parent to rebel against and grow up from.
Of course, such a path is not the ideal healthy way to heal. Far from it. However, these crisis folks are stunted and not emotionally healthy, so they grasp whatever straws they can. This course brings about a myriad of other problems. As well as shame, regret, and so on. Which is even more stuff to run from. The abyss pulls them in, engulfs them, pretty quickly. It takes a long while to crawl out of such. And some simply never do.
Originally Posted by MamaG
When you say, "The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.", I am being logical and can't make sense of the running. We've held each other's hands and gotten through all struggles together. What is the reason for not letting me help? Not trusting in me to help?
Because it’s not about you.
You cannot help him, for you didn’t break him.
MLCers are dragged back to their trauma(s). To that time. To that age. They behave like it. They see the world like it.
My XW lives like she was when she was around 18. When pressured, she reverts to a girl of 13. And with more pressure, she becomes a child of age 7. The very ages of her traumas. By the way, she was thrown out of her house and her parents’ lives when she turned 18. (Such a messed up family.)
I’ve seen her (witnessed by friend and son) alter, time travel, to the different persons / personalities. And it is the most spookiest thing I’ve ever seen.
MLCers are their teenage self. Your H, feels likely like his 16 year old self. Intellectually he knows you. Yet, emotionally, he is 16. A time when he was not married, had no kids, no job, none of the responsibilities, etc. This is how and why a MLCer can seem/be so uncaring and lack empathy. They simply do not feel it.
Speaking of feelings. Depression is ever present in a crisis. The MLCer desperately tries to run from their ceaseless depression, torment, and pain. A 16 year old H, remember not feeling or empathizing with you and his present married life, looks for some relief. Spending money is a pretty common running behaviour. Imagine a depressed teen with a huge bank account. Not likely to look inward as much as they would just spend and have good times to drowned the demons.
Things is, no matter how far one goes, how fast one runs, there they are. One cannot outrun themselves.
In the dark stillness of night, when lying in bed, his demons will come out to play.
Depression and lack of sleep shows and takes its toll. MLCer’s age, suffer aliments, and become less healthy. The very opposite of what they are trying to achieve with their futile attempts in reliving their youth.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I'm not taking it personally, although I did at one point. Rather, I'm trying to understand how to let someone (even if it’s not me) help him. H is so depressed and alone.
Good. Do not take it personally.
Unfortunately, MLCer’s do not see themselves as needing help. To them, they are finally living their authentic life.
Of course, they are running from everything and everyone, even themselves.
Suggesting counselling or therapy or such usually is met with anger. You can’t even lead this horse to water, never mind getting it to drink. Giving H to God. Time and space. I know, that’s a hard pill to swallow, to feel so powerless to help.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I've read comments like the one you share: Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. I just can't apply this thinking because since Nov, he is sooo depressed. Doesn't go anywhere. Man of few words. Keeps to himself. But has started to drink (not excessively but he never drank so he's drinking which is a change) and continues to smoke pot and started to use nicotine pouches to relieve stress. If he went back to 16 (attempt to end life), it would make sense that he's drinking, using pot (yes, I know it's legal in many states), behaving like a teenager. I remember him having a 11:00 curfew until he was 21 and HATED it. Often got angry at parents, but obliged. H wanted to stay in dorm with me but was required to go home every night. H was 17, 18, 19 then but still coming home for 11 resentfully. Could he be trying to relive those years without the curfew? And, that's why H would come home at 3 or 4 am in Oct? H LOVES his mom who passed 6 years ago next week. I would be surprised if any trauma is related to mom based on how he loves and misses her. Thoughts?
I think you have seen/see things well and with clarity. Hopefully, I’ve filled in some more blanks for you.
The big thing, you my dear are not crazy. The wild behaviours, the weird time travel, H’s moods, his ping ponging about, flipping personalities on a dime, all true!
Most folks have no clue about this stuff. Society thinks midlife crisis as a comedy - that Hollywood version. You know different. You’ve seen behind the curtain. Most people don’t and will not believe you. Even vehemently denying the existence of MLC.
Shrug, oh well. Until I experienced bomb drop and the horrific after math, I had absolutely no idea of this world. I was blissfully unaware.
The human mind is both incredibly strong and incredibly fragile.
My foray into this was BD. Then W, married 26 years, together 31, stood up after Thanksgiving diner and our full bellies, in front of my parents, our four kids, and son’s GF, and tossed this grenade upon the table:
“DnJ, I can’t live with you anymore. You get the house, the cars, and the kids. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.”
She threw her own children away like they were old clothes!
Complete bedlam erupted! May Dad and one son got super angry. One son couldn’t breathe. My daughter was crying. I was just stunned.
W and I talked in the living room for a bit. She revealed her boyfriend. Told me I was old and she was not (I was 49 at the time, she was 46.) Her reasoning for her life change: the furnace blows cold air on her; my work truck burns too much gas while she was trying to save the planet (my/our personal car was/is a Prius); she needs sunlight, rainy days feel like death to her; etc.
Dumbfounded is understatement of my and the family members’ reaction. No one saw this coming. Heck, her and I sat side by side that very afternoon while we played cards. All nine of us squished around the table. Her and I together, pressed thigh to thigh. The Thanksgiving Day outdoor games and activities likewise enjoyed together. Then, kaboom!
She left that night. 10:00pm, three hours after bomb drop, she walked down the dark 1400 foot driveway to the awaiting OM. Over the next few days she moved out.
OM is my neighbour. He and her live 3/4 mile south of me.
W pushed for a divorce. We were legally separated in two months and divorce ten months later.
She’s still with him. She still treats her now grown up kids as used clothes. She’s a very lost soul.
I understand and empathize with you. I’ve found peace and contentment, forgiven XW, forgiven myself, and lead/raised my children as a single Dad for the last seven years. My kids are doing awesome by the way. Lots of open honest discussions over the years. I offer what I can, and walk with folks through their sorrow and pain.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Love the lighthouse story - really resonates! Like I say, I don't always know how to apply knowledge learned. For instance, is me asking H to take a vacation with me smart? Is me 'letting' him take me to cancer appts smart? And, why is he the perfect husband on cancer days? Why does he NEED to take me to appts? "Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to." This makes me think that having a family member take me to cancer appts would be wiser. Not letting him in the house would be wiser. Yet, none of that feels right...
DB, at first, is highly counterintuitive. It will feel wrong.
Divorce busting is about taking rational well thought out actions and less emotional reactions.
The idea of smart or not, best or not, good or bad, is difficult. No one can see all ends. You do the best you can. Listen to the various suggestions of posters, therapists, family, friends, whomever, and do the best you can. And modify as you learn more. Grow and evolve.
That being said, my opinion, it’s too soon for vacation togetherness. After all, H is living in a separate house. He is actively and purposefully making space. Give it to him. No pressure.
When I first read your story, my thought was you should have a friend or other family member help you with travel to and from your cancer appointments. H is/has fired you as wife (or mostly fired). Let him feel the loss and consequences of his choices. Not in a mean or vindictive way, just let him lay in the bed he made. Besides, MLCers have the attention span of a gnat. Anything important, ensure you have a plan that doesn’t require H, as he is likely to flake out.
Take measures based upon your intellect, your reason. Yes, it will often go against your feelings. For a while anyhow. To me, it appears you are on the “right” path. Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by MamaG
In my situation, what are some examples that I can use to 'stir the pot' as I've read about?
I’d not purposefully stir the pot. Leave that to fate, karma, the universe, whatever/whomever. No need to paint a target upon yourself.
To be clear, don’t walk around on eggshells, or be a doormat! No way! You live and love your life. Enforce necessary boundaries. If H chooses to not be with you, fine. If H chooses to be with you, fine. Either way, you will be, and are, fine.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Lastly, I've initiated R talks with lots of caution and he doesn't seem opposed, but doesn't embrace a scheduled conversation. Just yesterday on our way to cancer appt, I mentioned that he asked for space in Sept and that most people need 3 to 4 weeks; not 3 to 4 years of space ((I know that to not always be the case but go with it). He chuckled at the 3 to 4 years part and agreed not that long. Then I played along and counted how many months it's been since Sept as if I wasn't keenly aware that it's been 7 months. Cautiously, I then said, at what point do we talk again and determine if we should go in opposite directions or commit to our relationship? He nodded with no words. After waiting a bit, I said, "I feel like if I wait for you, you'll never approach me." H corrected me with a soft voice and said he will. I asked him if he was scared to talk or scared of me. H said no. I thanked him and asked if this conversation was making him uncomfortable. H said: "no, conversation is fine. " I then asked if he felt like I have been pressuring him. Again, he said, no. Based on yesterday, I was led to think that he's grateful that I put into words what he may be thinking and that he's looking for assurance that he can turn to me. How do you read this?
Something to remember:
Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.
H is emotionally driven. His in the moment words and most actions will come from his emotional state. Look to long term constant demonstrated behaviours. For a while, likely a good while, H is going to be a mess. Going to be all over the place. Questions of why he said something, or why he did something, is basically - because he felt like it.
Sometimes things are positive, sometimes things are negative with H, his words, and his behaviours/actions. Don’t read into it too much. Just a few data points so far.
MLCers move slow. Glacially slow. And they really don’t experience time the same anymore. Months, years, will pass with hardly a notice from them. Like Rip Van Winkle they miss out on so much. Kids grow up and are no longer the small children they left behind. MLCers are lost and trapped in their past.
H is on his journey. A journey you, thankfully, were not invited to.
