David, I am so sorry to hear that you had such a difficult weekend. That first year or so, I was in so much pain that I could hardly function. It really seems like your wife could be in MLC. (how old is she?) MLCers say all sorts of things. We say around here: Believe nothing of what they say and only 50% of what they do. If you listen to what they say they will rock your world daily, sometimes hourly or minute by minute. That is why DBers(Michele)say to detach and focus on yourself.
Quoting DavidinCT: I also spoke with my wife about dating each other, just to see what would happen...cool no in response.
David, your wife needs space, she hasn't even left yet and you are talking about dating? You must find other ways to reassure yourself. Such as coming to the BB. Posting a lot and talking to friends, counselors, support persons that support your stand. You will not find reassurances from your wifes words at this time. You will only push her out the door faster.
Quote: My wife confirmed she would contact mediators this week and start the process as soon as possible (preferably before Christmas...her words).
NO OR TALKS!!
Quote: We discussed Retrouvaille (although only as "a weekend program" sponsored by the Catholic Church). She refused flatly. My wife is Catholic (I am not but have attended with her and our kids). This one kills me because one of her reasons for wanting a divorce is that I have not been Catholic and have supposedly not been supportive of her faith. She is on the "Family Life Committee" at our church (the hypocrisy is killing me...she won't even attend joint counseling or a weekend retreat).
During MLC they totally change. Things that were important to them are now not important at all. It just goes to show how confused your wife is and it is typical MLC behavior.
The only thing that might get her attention is anything done for the kids. But, I caution, you that many MLCers don't act very caring towards their children at this time.(I worded that more nicely then many of the MLCer deserve) So if and when she does notify you of pending mediation you could try to get that in the agreement to attend for the children. But, timing is everything.
Quote:
For the first time she told me that there was NO CHANCE of us not divorcing. I believe her.
Again, don't believe anything you hear and only 50% of what they do. (When I say don't believe anything that they hear that means listen carefully use information they devulge to work on yourself or protect you and the children but don't believe anything they say.
Quote: The only good news is that she now freely admits that I have changed a lot since she told me about this in September. Unfortunately, she says it is too late.
That is good news. She says it is too late. Don't believe it but, do validate her feelings about it.
Quote: My emotions are everywhere. I go from hopeful to angry to apathetic. I feel best when apathetic. I wish I could maintain this numb lack of caring. Perhaps that is what I need to DB properly (I know I would revive interest if provided any cause). Unfortunately, I can't stay there. I naturally move back towards caring about her and being hopeful. Then I have more pain than ever because deep down I know this won't work out. I am also pulled back because my wife continues to do many nice/involved things. Even last night, she was eating something in the kitchen and asked me to keep her company (I was heading into the other room).
Yes this is very hard. That's why detachment is so crucial but, it takes a while to obtain. I wish there was an easier way. I remember how painful this was. ((((((David))))))
Quote: Then I get angry. I don't do anything...it's all internal. Sometimes it's healthy (?) anger, i.e. why would I want to be with her anyway...I'd be better off without...she doesn't love me to hell with her. Other times it's not and I just want to scream (and screaming is the nicest thing I feel like doing sometimes) at her and her "divorce is the answer" counselor.
I worked a long time to find a healthy way to process my anger. I use to go out to the back and break plates against a wall. Try to find a way to use the anger to motivate you in positive ways.
Quote: I'm a mess. I know it's over and can't let go.
You've got to find a way to let her go, honey, it does NOT mean it is over. Have a little faith. Put away your crystal ball, put one foot in front of the other and keep DBing. Makes some small doable goals.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that you will be the one to leave the home? Is that so? Tell me more about this, okay?
I will pray for you and your family.
Take care, I know this is so hard. ((((((David))))))
My wife is 38. I think your advice is all good. I actually do believe that things could turn around if given enough time. Unfortunately I don't think I will get it.
She is still very concerned about the kids. Her counselor validates her thinking that it is best for the kids. In September when she first formally demanded a divorce, she said it was best so that they wouldn't have to be around so much fighting (I don't think that there was sooo much, but I understand that her feelings are pretty key here). As the past few months have unfolded, and our communication has improved and fighting virtually disappeared, her story has changed to the kids needing to see their parents in a loving relationship which she is not capable of.
I am letting go. It's hard not to engage in pursuing behaviors when still at home. I am trying to make changes in myself (for my own good as well as for the relationship). However, most of these changes involve being somewhat more attentive and involved. My nature, these are also pursuing activities. It's hard to know what to do here.
I have noticed, however, that my way of approaching her has changed since this weekend. I haven't "given up," but I do honestly believe there to be no (or almost no) hope. I do believe that a last minute reversal is possible as we get into counseling, but so unlikely as to not be worth thinking of. This is actually good because it may allow me to act the way that I need to. I do feel some self dignity returning as I am mentally shifting (slowly and with many reversals) towards what I want post-divorce.
I forgot to respond regarding my moving out. My wife and I have already agreed that she will have the kids the majority of the time. This is a hard thing for me, but actually was not such a hard decision. Early on I consulted with one of the best lawyers in the area and he told me I had absolutely no chance of getting the kids the majority of the time. As a result I decided it would be better to keep things amicable rather than fight a battle that I couldn't win.
We agreed that post-divorce I would more out and she would stay (if it is economically feasible). We have a decent net worth, but half of it is tied up in the home. If we actually split the assets 50/50 (and probably pretty close to that on my income) things get kind of tight for both of us. Fun.
My lawyer advises I refuse to move out until the divorce (or legal separation) are final as doing otherwise would weaken my visitation arguments should things turn nasty later. Upon further questioning, I am not wholly sure that this is correct. There are some arguments for moving out sooner to let her experience the change of my being gone and also give her more space. The arguments against, however, are that she will not see my changes as readily and may just start moving on. I am inclined to stay.
Is this all miserable or what? Anyway, enough about me, can I do anything for you? How are you?
Quote: She is still very concerned about the kids. Her counselor validates her thinking that it is best for the kids.
Have you met this “counselor” has she/he ever spoken to you or is the C going on what your W has said?
Quote: It's hard not to engage in pursuing behaviors when still at home. I am trying to make changes in myself (for my own good as well as for the relationship). However, most of these changes involve being somewhat more attentive and involved. My nature, these are also pursuing activities. It's hard to know what to do here.
Yes, you walk a fine line when living at home while Dbing and trying not to be perceived as pursuing. It’s important to show her your warm, fun, caring side. I use to hole up in my room with the kids and we would laugh very loudly and have fun. (I spent a lot of time in my room trying to give him as much space as possible). How can you be a strong, loving, fun, presence without pursuing? You seem to be doing some self-evaluation which is crucial to this process. That is good. I'm sure you will begin to come up with ways to be your best self around her and the children.
I'm wondering about what your lawyer said. You mean if your wife is the one that walks that you won't be able to get the kids the majority of the time? Are you considering 50/50? I admire your choice to keep things amicable and with that in mind don't you still have the right to having the kids at least half the time?
Where I am going with this is A lot of times it's good to let the WA do all the work for the divorce(they want it you don't) and because they want to leave and you don't they need to be the ones to leave,you don't want the divorce why are you leaving your home? I know this is very tricky and you don't want to create hostility from your wife but also, you don't want to just give up your rights either. Unless you were verbally or physically abusive,(If you were that's a different ball game) she is walking away and should have to live with that choice. Perhaps you thought of all that.
Yes, this is all miserable and the children are the real losers.
Thanks for asking about me, I'm hanging in there. If you know of a good way to make money at home then you could help me, cause right now my biggest challenges are financial.
gotta run will try to post an update on my sit. soon.
The counselor has not met with me and is only reacting to what my wife said. She selected him because he is "pro-divorce" based upon an article that he had written (my words). He counseled her to let me know she wanted a divorce and she would not reconsider after their first 50 minute session.
Anyway, this is not the main thing that I wanted to ask you about. I have a practical question. Every day I call my wife from work to let her know when I will be home and briefly chat. We have always done this. It feels strange not to do this, but I am wondering if I should stop so as to not come off as pursuing. The problem is that she doesn't mind the calls and often likes them. This would normally lead me to say keep doing it, but we march ever closer to the brink and maybe I should do something else. I am not sure what would be letting go here...calling or not calling. Both seem right and wrong.
You were correct before...I am so indecisve now that it is ridiculous.
Remember one of the basics of Dbing. Do something different, do a 180 .
You want to keep her a little off balance, be unpredictable, mix it up a little. Keep her guessing. Of course this is all in balance with all the other things you are doing as well.
If you have always done it,(called to check in) maybe this is a good place to do a 180. See what happens.
Quote: Every day I call my wife from work to let her know when I will be home and briefly chat. We have always done this. It feels strange not to do this, but I am wondering if I should stop so as to not come off as pursuing. The problem is that she doesn't mind the calls and often likes them. This would normally lead me to say keep doing it, but we march ever closer to the brink and maybe I should do something else. I am not sure what would be letting go here...calling or not calling. Both seem right and wrong.
Sometimes DBing seems counterintuitive, goes against our natural inclination.
I would try not calling her and see what reaction you get. It may take awhile for you to get any reaction at all but watch for any sign.
Have you read the book: "Solo Partner" by Phil DeLuca?
He explains the distancer/pursuit dance really well.
In addition to NOT pursuing, you want to change the dance so that you become the distancer and she becomes the pursuer. That is a simplistic statement that doesn't take into account yours and your wifes past dynamics but may help you to decide what the best course of action is.
If you were always the pursuer in your relationship then distancing would be a 180 for you.
But if you were always the distancer, that needs a different approach. You have to decide just what your goal is here. Such as having her see you as more accessable emotionally, if you were always the distancer.
My advice to you is to set 1 or 2 goals that are doable. And then make decisions based on reaching those goals.
But always keep in mind to do something different, okay?
I would be happy to help you with coming up with those goals.
I am not clear on what types of goals would make sense. We are getting along quite well with the exception that the divorce is still firmly on the table (as you remember from my discussion of last weekend).
I have now done the things that I feel that I need to do and can hopefully let go more.
Since we get along, I am not sure what reasonable goals are. The one that I really want is that she we won't start mediation, but other than adopting a hands-off approach, I am not sure what to do.
Thanks for your help. I am doing much better. I am beginning to truly focus on myself. I have realized, with the help of some reading and external events, that I need to focus on making myself happier. I am not normally a mopey, morose person. Presenting myself this way (even part of the time) is not helping my chances with my wife or how I will feel if things don't work out.
I am letting myself focus on the fact that I will be alright even if the divorce happens. I don't want it to, but everything will be o.k. I am perhaps able to think this way because deep down I truly believe that the divorce will come.
Having said this, we still aren't in mediation (at least until January...still not scheduled) and we are both being nice to each other (my wife even asked me to go to dinner Saturday...along with the kids...not a big breakthrough as she wants to be friends afterwords).
Who knows what will happen. I can't do much to change things with the exception of continuing what I'm doing and trying some minor 180s. I guess what will be will be.
I'm still interested in your thoughts on goals and actions. I can't tell you how much I have appreciated your feedback.
See if you can come up with a few goals and post them here.
Also, Come up with some behaviors that serve to keep your W off balance and guessing. This way you won't be so predictable, reliable and dependable, not just good ole David. Remember the 180!
cause right now my biggest challenges are financial.