I went to some of your other posts to see if I could get more background on your situation. I can’t give you THE answer that you are looking for but I can try to help you make the decision for yourself.
Quote: I have had some input (on these boards) suggesting that if you spouse sees no hope (mine does not) that this may be perceived as too much pressure and that just DBing may be better.
In reading a few of your posts I read that your wife feels that you are controlling. There is a very real chance that your wife might interpret your wanting her to go to Retrouvaille as controlling. For that reason she could decline and your asking her to go could backfire on you.
Quote: I have also heard that Retroaville will not help if there is a third party in the wings (I suspect this but have no confirmation).
The people at Retrouvaille will pre-interview your W and will ask her(She doesn’t tell them her answer) if there is a third party involved and will tell her that they don’t recommend she attend the weekend if there is. There are many reasons why the program is not successful if there is another person.
Quote: One of her resons for wanting the divorce is that we had nothing to say to each other. This comment was partially true as during the six months leading up to her announcement, it was clear that things were going badly in our relationship. The tension from this made all normal conversation seem contrite. When discussing the divorce she said that all we talked about was her day and things involving the kids (Is this not the majority of any family oriented couples coversations?). She still maintains that we are great as a family, but bad as a couple (which seems plenty good reason to go to joint counseling or anything else to try to fix the couples part).
Quote: First, do you have any advice on how to ask?
Retrouvaille directly addresses the issues you stated above. If it were merely just about those issues, I would tell your W that Retrouvaille directly addresses these issues and gives you tools for better communication. But...
I would advise proceeding with extreme caution. Just from the quick search I did on your situation, I can't get a feel for what is really going on. Depending upon where your W is at in her journey, Retrouvaille can either help or hurt. I think Retrouvaille is an extraordianry program as do I think that DBing is extraordinary. They are complementary to each other. Retrouvaille is a tool(and gives you some tools) but Dbing is a way of life.
I've gotta run but, I would be happy to talk to you more. Feel free to continue to ask questions here or email me at: martelis@hotmail.com
I'll e-mail you as well. I just posted the following on another board. I have not read your response so you do answer some of the questions. Perhaps this extra info will influence your thoughts.
Thanks for your kind help,
David
Alright, I need some help on Retroaville. I have a few specific questions and I really need some recommendations. Let me start off by saying that my wife and I live together. She told me in September she wants a divorce (read prior strings under "retrouvaille" and "does DBing work?". In that time we have gone from not interacting to now having many frequent, positive interactions. We both wish to remain friends if there is to be a divorce and have agreed (if she will not reconsider) to proceed via Mediation as opposed to litigation. Things have improved for us in many ways: we are communicating better, we can joke with each other and we are cooperating as parents. Unfortunately, however, whenever the topic of the divorce comes up my wife is clear and decisive. She wants a divorce, believes she will be happier after, and deserves to be truly in love in an intimate relationship. She syas has been surprised at the positive changes that I have made, but that she will not change her mind. She says the changes will allow me to be a better father, us to be better post-divorce parents and will improve my future relationships. She, however, is not going to remain married to me. I am no longer initiating these conversations, but sometimes she does or we stumble into them.
A few other things: 4 1/2 weeks ago she was going to start the mediation proceedings and has not yet done so. At the time, she also told me that for the kids' sake, I should live at home through the holidays. I believe it was the intention at the time that we would have begun mediation shortly (in early November). Now I expect that this will not occur until January. We are going to Utah (where we both have family) on December 27 and returning Jan. 1. I expect her to initiate mediation upon our return(although I could go home tonight and she may have an appointment set up).
My wife views me as controlling and has historically not responded well to arguments/reasoning. She processes things in her own time and in her own way. Last, I expect that as long as the subject of divorce is avoided, we will continue to get along well and we will be able to log some good time between us. Unfortunately, I believe this will be reversed in January when her self granted time period elapses. As many good times as we have, her intentions have not wavered a bit. ALTHOUGH I HAVE HAD MORE TIME SINCE HER ANNOUNCEMENT IN SEPTEMBER THAN I EXPECTED, I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT I DO NOT HAVE UNLIMITED TIME TO WORK WITH.
Now back to my questions regarding Retroaville.
(1) Should I ask her to Retroaville? (note that questions (2) may affect the answer...they are interrelated)
Arguments for:
(a) Many people on these boards as well as the Retroaville representatives (when you call their 800 number) report that they have a reasonably good success rate in getting people to reconsider who are dead-set upon divorcing and do not want to attend the program.
(b) Assuming that mediation begins in January, what do I have to lose? Another factor contributing to this is that Retrovaille sessions scheduled for my area begin on Jan. 17 and then not until April. April may be too late
(c) My wife is Catholic and the program is sponsored by the Catholic church (though the program is largely non-denominational).
(d) I am afraid that if I don't try to get her to go that later (post-divorce) I will second guess myself and wonder whether I should have tried it.
Arguments against:
(a) My wife will definitely feel pressured. Things are going well and I am reluctant to upset the apple cart(although we edge closer to the abyss).
(b) I think it only 30% likely that she will agree. I am likely to incur the negative of asking with little result.
(c) A few people on these Boards have suggested the program is excellent assuming there is not a 3rd party in the picture. In this case the affair must be admitted and ended. I do not know if my wife is having an affair. I think it reasonably likely that she did earlier this year, somewhat likely that she still is and somewhat more likely that she is not currently, but that there is someone "in the wings." My wife has not admitted to anything. I asked her in March or April (prior to divorce announcement) for a number of reasons. She denied it, but not convincingly. Since then I have not asked. It is quite possible that this is in my head, but I don't think so. I view it as highly unlikely that she would admit to anything anyway because her lawyer will have advised her not to (an affair would have negative consequences on her financial settlement if things went to court). Hence, if something was/is going on I won't know about it.
(d) Some have argued that Retroaville is unproductive if one spouse does not wish to fix the relationship...the boards have both sides of this argument.
WHAT SHOULD I DO?
Question 2: When should I ask her (if at all)?
If mediation starts prior to Christmas, I will ask her shortly after is begins. However, she doesn't schedule anything until our return in early January, there is a timing problem. I am reluctant to raise Retrovaille while things are going well...I might erase progress that would have kept us from reaching mediation. I think it highly likely that we will go to mediation anyway, but if you had asked me a month ago whether today I would think that mediation wouldn't begin until January I would have said it absolutely would have already started (i.e., I don't know what is going to happen).
So, if I don't ask her until January this presents other problems. With the session begining on Jan. 17, I feel that I probably need to ask her at least a week in advance, and probably by Jan. 8 (preferably Jan. 2 but for the reasons spelled out above). However, if she hasn't set a mediation appointment by then what to do? I also may need even more time to avoid having the spot filled in Retroaville and to arrange child care/etc.
WHEN SHOULD I ASK?
PLEASE HELP ME WITH ANY INPUT ON ALL OF THE ABOVE. I AM DAMN NERVOUS AND CONFUSED.
Actually I have not e-mailed directly as I am concerned about how "real" e-mails are traced from my account (this is anonymous but real e-mails are not).
Retrouvaille at the wrong time will be detrimental.
I know you are anxious to DO something, to FIX this problem. I felt this way too, in the beginning. I tried everything I could think of, to GET my H to reconsider, I thought he would change his mind, And I knew if I just did and said the right things, he would see what he was doing.
That is because most of us, that find ourselves here, are fixers, doers and/or helpers.
I had to learn, as did my fellow Dbers, that I had to put it in the hands of God. I had to focus on myself and stop focusing on my H at all.
I am concerned about you, because from what you are saying, I wonder if you have learned that lesson yet. Your wife needs you to learn that lesson and until your wife feels safe to feel the way she does, and to feel it whenever she does without feeling judged by you or disagreed with, you will not see many gains. This is one of the most important 180's that you can do. Stop trying to fix this. She will perceive it and not only that: YOU CAN"T fix this!!!!!!" You can only focus on yourself, listen to her "complaints" and see if there is anything you need to change.
(This is basic DBing and is one of the first 180's you should do. It does not mean that you will become a door mat, there are other changes that will evolve out of this one basic one. Most MLCers/WA's do not feel understood or"gotten" in a very deep, primal way.)
Why am I saying all this when you are simply asking about Retrouvaille? Because I have been through what you are going through and gone through it with hundreds of others, as well.
I'm not saying you shouldn't ask her to go to Retrouvaille. But, the timing is very important and what I have heard of your story so far, leads me to believe, that you have some important lessons to learn that will go farther to save your marriage then simply asking her to go to Retrouvaille.
Now that said, If you are absolutely sure, that you have nothing to lose, you could employ the last resort technique (LRT) and ask her if she would go and tell her that: after all, you are going to have to communicate for the rest of your lives (there are children involved, right?) And Retrouvaille will help us to heal and communicate with each other better.
Retrouvaille is about healing. You spend alot of time during the weekend within the realm of feelings. It's amazing how when you "get" her feelings without judging them and she "gets" your feelings without judging them, how much that opens up trust, healing and honest communciation. You don't handle any issues in the weekend. It doesn't solve any problems. It simply lays down a foundation based on the healing that takes place.
She would have to be committed to going to the follow ups. That is where more problem solving tools are given.
Since your wife has not even set up the mediation yet, I suggest you put in more changes within yourself and give it some time (3 to 6 weeks at least, but more likely 3 to 6 months) for each change. Watch for the baby steps and keep whats working and stop what isn't working(you don't usually need much time to find out what is NOT working, though)
I hope this wasn't too harsh, believe me, I KNOW what you are going through and it is not easy to sit back and "do nothing"(you do know what I mean by "doing nothing" (see above))
I am now on my fifth year of this journey. I had to learn patience and letting go. I had to learn to detach and let my H find his own way. I had to change me, focus on me and the kids. That first two years were hell. My H has lived at home this entire time.
Thank God you have found this site. Keep asking the questions. They are good questions.
Take care, David, you and your family are in my prayers.
What you say makes sense. There is one practical consideration that makes me wonder what to do. Since there is not another Retroaville session in my area following Jan. 17 until April, I am concerned that if I do not ask her now that mediation will be done (divorce) before the next one begins.
I am also interested in your comments to David. My H is moving out in January he just told me on our way to church. I have expected it and recently encouraged it. He has been to see an attorney but is determined that we remain friends. He has gone to counselling with me recently to "help me get through" this. I also am in David's area and the sessions seem so soon after H moves out. But like David I feel that D will be too far underway to go in April.
My concern is what do they ask when you register? My H will only go on the premis of retaining our friendship therefore needing help with communication. Is this being dishonest about my motives? If they ask him when he registers if he's willing to work on the marriage he will say no.
I cannot advise you to go ahead and ask her because of your concern about what "MIGHT" happen. What I would do, would be to put this in the hands of God and pray until I get some kind of an answer on what the best course of action is.
I would DO nothing regarding this, keep making your changes and have a little faith. You are trying to control this. She will sense this and it will send her in the other direction.
I am not a religious person.(but I am very spiritual) I have learned that unless you bring God into this equation you are taking the hardest most difficult road alone. This is a fundemental lesson. DOers must learn not to always do. But to be still and listen in all ways.
Wait. There is no date for mediation yet.
There is no Panacea for what is happening. No quick fixes. Do your best, make the changes that you need for yourself and continue to Db.
Patience is the first and foremost thing you must have.
Those are my thoughts at the moment.
Here's a big hug. (((((((David)))))))
Take care my friend.
Dotto, I will post to you in a little bit. Okay? Hang in there.
Retrouvaille is very clear in stating, that their agenda is to save marriages. What I told my H was:that yes, this is their agenda but from everything I have read from people who have attended, is that Retrouvaille will help us to really decide what is really the best choice for us and it will help us to heal and to communicate whether we divorce or not. I also emphasized that Retrouvaille was for severely damaged marriages that appear to have no hope of reconciling and not for those who were committed to working on their marriages and staying together no matter what.(this was my understanding of the weekend at the time, gotten from Dbers who had done the weekend) ( Now, that I have done it, I think that just about any couple could benifit from the technique introduced in the weekend)
I had to pick and choose what exactly I said to my H, edit some of the communication from Retrouvaille ( I never gave him their communications directly, I always e-mailed him a paraphrased version and took out some of the things that I knew he would have trouble with. I did not lie to him, I just tried to make it more palatable to his mind set.
I told my H that we were intelligent enough not to be brain washed by their agenda and that we can use the weekend for what our goals are (We had already set some goals such as healing, communication and counseling) and make our own conclusions based on our own needs.
Of course this came after 3-4 years of his MLC and my DBing. If I had said all this in the beginning, it most likely would have fallen on deaf ears because then my H had no listening for anything other then what he wanted at that second and that was away from me and to be with OW. But my H never said he wanted a divorce and he didn't move out even though he said he wanted too. Perhaps, if divorce would have been immenent, I might have requested that he attend the weekend as a LAST RESORT but I never did until just recently and by then we had set some goals and were sorting things out.
I would call the location nearest you and ask them your question about what questions they ask as I have forgotten and it may be slightly different at each location.
In my interview, they did not require me to answer these questions out loud. If you can prepare your H ahead of time for the questions and reframe them for his context( to help you, to better your communication, to heal) he may see some value in going.
Tough weekend. It was actually a lot of fun most of the time, but with some very hard moments (particularly due to some hard self-realizations).
My wife, kids and I put up Christmas lights, tree, etc. We also went to a Christmas symphony performance with a Christmas Carol sing-a-long.
I did not DB well (although my wife initiated most of the conversations), but did a number of things that I would probably have had to eventually do. I spoke with my wife's sister who said that my wife had made up her mind before talking to any of her family (not like her). I also spoke with my wife about dating each other, just to see what would happen...cool no in response. My wife confirmed she would contact mediators this week and start the process as soon as possible (preferably before Christmas...her words). We discussed Retrouvaille (although only as "a weekend program" sponsored by the Catholic Church). She refused flatly. My wife is Catholic (I am not but have attended with her and our kids). This one kills me because one of her reasons for wanting a divorce is that I have not been Catholic and have supposedly not been supportive of her faith. She is on the "Family Life Committee" at our church (the hypocrisy is killing me...she won't even attend joint counseling or a weekend retreat).
For the first time she told me that there was NO CHANCE of us not divorcing. I believe her.
The only good news is that she now freely admits that I have changed a lot since she told me about this in September. Unfortunately, she says it is too late.
My emotions are everywhere. I go from hopeful to angry to apathetic. I feel best when apathetic. I wish I could maintain this numb lack of caring. Perhaps that is what I need to DB properly (I know I would revive interest if provided any cause). Unfortunately, I can't stay there. I naturally move back towards caring about her and being hopeful. Then I have more pain than ever because deep down I know this won't work out. I am also pulled back because my wife continues to do many nice/involved things. Even last night, she was eating something in the kitchen and asked me to keep her company (I was heading into the other room).
Then I get angry. I don't do anything...it's all internal. Sometimes it's healthy (?) anger, i.e. why would I want to be with her anyway...I'd be better off without...she doesn't love me to hell with her. Other times it's not and I just want to scream (and screaming is the nicest thing I feel like doing sometimes) at her and her "divorce is the answer" counselor.
