I’d like some advice about specific actions I’m considering. I’m trying to think of some 180s I can do. But I don’t think it’s enough to do something different than I normally would, I think I have to do something that W would enjoy too.
I’ve always been cheap, although I usually rationalize it better than that. I’ve (we’ve) also been poor for most of our marriage. I never bought her an engagement ring. It would be a 180 if I bought her one now, any ring, but I don’t think that would be a smart move. I think it would make her feel trapped.
I’ve always been a hum bug too. We have never made a big deal about our birthdays. Usually a card, maybe a nice dinner, that’s it. I’m thinking of calling my W’s friends and setting up a birthday party for her, without me. Nothing too extravagant, because we are poor again, but something different than normal. Her birthday is 2 days after Christmas, so it’s often been overlooked. I think she would like the special attention. I was thinking of getting her a very small, inexpensive gift for her birthday too, since I normally don’t. But would that seem like too much? She loves tea, I was thinking of getting some specialty teas and stuffing her stocking with them.
What do you think? Good idea?
What else can I 180 on? My wife is a serious introvert. She has very few friends (2 at the most, and she doesn’t really consider them close). She doesn’t want to go out, or party, or be around people. She seems to like to watch TV. I like to be home, with my family. So what can I do? Does it have to be big, or shocking?
I’ve taken her to 2 movies. That is a little out of character for me. My son’s old enough to baby-sit, so we can have dates, if she is up for them. I’ve bought tickets to take the family to the Nutcracker. Maybe more theater, dance, or cultural events would be a good idea. We’ve always done those kinds of things to a limited degree. The difference would be that I’m planning them instead of her. She always planned events in the past. Is that a good 180?
Money is an issue now. I didn’t realize how deeply we had gotten into debt in the last few years. My W was taking care of the money. Although she is competent, she didn’t make it clear to me how little money we had. I would ask, often, if we could afford to go out to eat. She almost always said yes. She felt that since I worked and she didn’t, that she couldn’t say no to me when I wanted to spend money. She told me that there were problems, but I didn’t catch the urgency. Now I want to spend money on dates, on activities for me as part of my GAL, but don’t have the funds, especially since I’ve started a new job that I think I’ll love but that has much lower benefits than before. Oh woe is me. Money is the least of my problems.
M45, W4,S15, D10,
Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06
current thread
I think I'm not alone in feeling this way, but I have an overwhelming compulsion sometimes to search my wife's stuff and check on her to see if she is in contact with the OM. I know it's destructive. If I find something, what will I do, confront her? It will hurt like hell, anything I find. But I feel it's better to know than to be duped again, isn't it?
I'm saying this outloud to help me get it out of my system and help me NOT search her stuff, hack into her email, or anything else totally stupid. She has promised to not contact him, and I think she has promised to tell me if he is in contact with her. I say think because my demands have continually been lessened and beaten down. At first, when she came back, I demanded no contact. Now, I've asked. I've asked enough times. If I keep asking, it sounds like a demand, so I've stopped asking.
I know I need to focus on what I can control, and stop worrying. But doesn't the affair have to be addressed too? Don't my insecurities need to be addressed? In many of the books I've read, it says how the betrayer needs to apologize often, reassure often, and allow the betrayed to be paranoid and ask/demand accountability of time and communicactions. That's not the way it is in real life is it? The betrayer, my W, doesn't really feel sorry for what she did. Do you think she ever will?
whew, helps to get it out.
Patience give her space work on myself no expectations act "as if" (I don't understand this one yet) rinse and repeat.
M45, W4,S15, D10,
Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06
current thread
Quote: But I don’t think it’s enough to do something different than I normally would, I think I have to do something that W would enjoy too.
Not necessarily. Part of the 180-ing is getting YOU to a better place and making changes that are positive and new. It DOES help with the W but I'm being a little tough on you because you seem to be thinking mainly in terms of "what effect will this have on my wife" instead of, "what do I need to change regardless of how my W feels about it."
However, that's a great idea. Some of the biggest payoffs for me ended up being things I knew my W liked that I didn't...and the biggest 180 of all was simply wanting to do things with her just because it was her idea or she wanted to do it. But again, don't expect it to payoff for a long, long time.
Quote: I never bought her an engagement ring...but I don’t think that would be a smart move. I think it would make her feel trapped
Good thinking! You're starting to sound like an old pro at this.
Quote: I’m thinking of calling my W’s friends and setting up a birthday party for her, without me.
Why without you? I understand the motivation here, but my take on this (and I ain't saying I'm right) is, why not set up the party, be there, but allow her the time to socialize with her friends and sort of be there but just give her space. It'll be good for you and good for her.
Quote: I was thinking of getting her a very small, inexpensive gift for her birthday too, since I normally don’t. But would that seem like too much? She loves tea, I was thinking of getting some specialty teas and stuffing her stocking with them.
What do you think? Good idea?
GREAT idea for a gift. It's personal, and special, but not too intimate at a time when that could make her uncomfortable. Puts no pressure on her, and something she will enjoy that's just for her. Dude, you're rockin'!
Quote: What else can I 180 on? My wife is a serious introvert....So what can I do? Does it have to be big, or shocking?
Of course not unless you're eliminating a huge negative in terms of your attitude/behavior and replacing it with a huge positive. Many small changes really add up.
Quote: Maybe more theater, dance, or cultural events would be a good idea. We’ve always done those kinds of things to a limited degree. The difference would be that I’m planning them instead of her. She always planned events in the past. Is that a good 180?
YES! But don't overdo it because of the money issue.
Quote: Money is an issue now...Oh woe is me.
Maybe the least of your problems now, maybe not. This was a problem for us for several years too and the strain it puts on a relationship is tough. Don't get into worse money trouble now because you want to take her out and do all that stuff. You need to help lead your family out of the financial trouble and financial security is very important to a marriage and to a wife and mother. Being willing to sacrifice some so-called "retail therapy" in order to bank some money and be able to handle emergencies and just routine needs will do alot to boost your self-respect and help her respect you as well.
You can find cheap stuff to do for and with your wife that is meaningful as well as thrifty. For instance, my W loves a particular soup that we get at a nifty little neighborhood cafe near where we live. It's made there and she always gets it. Every now and then, I just stop by there at lunchtime, pick some up, and take it home to her. $2.15 bucks and it's special, it's personal, and it's thoughtful. And cheap
If she likes tea, you can do stuff like just make her some special tea and just bringing it to her while she's watching her favorite show...and maybe do some chores for her so she can do something she enjoys, like watching her favorite show, without having to, say, fold laundry while she's doing it, or feel like a slacker for putting stuff off that's going to end up making her twice as busy tomorrow, and which may interfere with other stuff.
So instead of not being able to enjoy her favorite show because she's doing housework, tending to kids, whatever, imagine how nice it'd be for her to get served a cup of good tea by you, sit down and watch her show, and have you run interference with the kids, chores, whatever.
Everybody wins when you do stuff like that.
One thing I did was identify the tasks my wife hated the most and doing those for her all the time, or as much as I could. Like the dishes. She likes cooking, but hates doing dishes. I, too, like cooking but hate doing dishes. But I like to see things neat and orderly. I decided that since my W does 99% of the cooking day-in/day-out, it was only fair that I do all of the dishes. I sort of dressed it up for her, too...told her that she was the star of the kitchen, the artist, so I was going to be her road crew: Make sure the kitchen was ready for her to come in and do her stuff, then clean it all up for her afterwards. Since she knows she doesn't have to clean up now, she also makes fancier meals when she can, so we all benefit.
Quote: Money is the least of my problems.
The real 180 here is not in taking her out more (although that's good too when you can) but in taking more responsibility for the finances. She may feel burdened doing that and then watching you spend the money even though she said it was okay. Don't put her in that position because she will feel too much of the pressure.
So a better 180 than taking her out to a show, it seems to me, is gently (without making her feel like you're blaming her) see if she'd rather you handle the finances, or find out how you can help make that easier on her without insulting her.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
Quote: I think I'm not alone in feeling this way, but I have an overwhelming compulsion sometimes to search my wife's stuff and check on her to see if she is in contact with the OM.
Pretty common.
Quote: But I feel it's better to know than to be duped again, isn't it?
Depends on what you mean by duped. Depends on your attitude, too. If you're drawing your peace of mind, well-being, and sense of self-worth from her, you're not sharing your life with your wife, you're sucking the life out of her and, by implication, sending the message that you don't have anything to offer, anyway.
What you need to do is get strong and independent, rediscover your self-sufficiency, then be able to turn around and love her out of that strength. Takes time. Took a long time to get where you're at, and a long time to get back to where you want to be. This is not about your ability to guilt her into things or control her behavior. You can't, and even if you could, it wouldn't be worth it.
Quote: I know I need to focus on what I can control, and stop worrying.
True. And it's easier said (or typed) than done, as you know.
Quote: But doesn't the affair have to be addressed too?
Yes.
Quote: Don't my insecurities need to be addressed?
Yes, but you're the one who needs to address them.
Quote: In many of the books I've read, it says how the betrayer needs to apologize often, reassure often, and allow the betrayed to be paranoid and ask/demand accountability of time and communicactions.
Well, I DO believe this is a good indicator of success, but you also need to give her time. It isn't the same for everyone. In my sitch, I asked my W to do that for a short time, but I ended up asking her to NOT do it because I felt like, despite her betrayal, it was demeaning to her, and we'd never have the kind of marriage I want so long as she felt like she had to report to me.
Quote: That's not the way it is in real life is it?
Well, it depends on the people and the attitude of the WAS. My W may not have felt too bad for cheating on ME because, really, I abandoned her emotionally and in other ways before she ever cheated on me. However, adultery is wrong, it's immoral, it's taking time and attention and affection that a spouse should be giving to their spouse or their children or their home and giving it to someone who isn't entitled to it. So while she doesn't feel bad, it's still wrong,.
Quote: The betrayer, my W, doesn't really feel sorry for what she did. Do you think she ever will?
Don't assume anything at all. Start with a beginner's mind, as they say. She may feel bad. She may feel nothing at all. She's conflicted. She's dealing with some tough stuff. But this isn't about her right now. This is about you, and whether you're going to throw gasoline on the fire, or just take care of yourself and your family and allow the fire to burn out, as it will, one way or another.
There's nothing wrong with setting boundaries and pointing out that you can't really work on your marriage when one of you is involved with a third party. But it really doesn't mean anything until she decides to work on the marriage, and she may not decide that for a while.
All you can really do is be a great husband and father and, by your example, make the choice clear, but she still has to make the choice.
The OP could be gone tomorrow, that won't mean she wants to or is willing to fully recommit to your M. The OP isn't the problem, he's a symptom.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
This struck me, and my response also expands on something I think TL said to you a few posts back.
Quote: The betrayer, my W, doesn't really feel sorry for what she did. Do you think she ever will?
The betrayer...hmmmmm...I think some people around here, over the past year, probably think I took TOO much blame for what went wrong in my marriage but I don't really agree. What I did do, RIGHT AWAY, is see how her adultery, while a "broken vow" for sure, was only one of MANY broken vows in our marriage, and all but that one was broken by me...FIRST.
To brand HER "The Betrayer" somehow elevates, or denigrates you depending on how you think about it. It either puts you in the position of judge, or victim.
I would bet, in a time of real honesty, your W would say YOU betrayed HER long before the thought of betraying you entered her mind. I bet she could paint a pretty dark picture of your marriage from her perspective.
Would that picture be accurate in the abstract sense? Probably not, but it's true to her.
This goes right along with the "right or married/happy" idea we've been talking about.
She's right about you being "the betrayer" as much as you are. Sure, she had an accomplice in the OM but that only complicates the matter, it doesn't change the fact that a marriage is made up of many intertwined factors, any of which, if far enough out of whack, can cause destruction.
So you being cheap, not going all-out for holidays, maybe paying less attention to her than you should, neglecting her sexually (trust me, it's possible), whatever, those are all "lesser evils" when compared to cheating but that is often only in the eye of the cheated on, not the cheater. To the cheater, yes, those are lesser offences but when you endure them for YEARS, they add up to something that makes cheating almost tame.
It's another one of those universals.
Sorry to harp on one little comment, but I try to pull these things out of posts that maybe give us insight.
As for your 180's, I agree, they all seem to revolve around how they would affect her and not much at all about how they would affect YOU. It's hard to understand this part of DB, the part about how you can't TRY to manipulate her but in all actuality, you ARE manipulating her. You do that by doing things that first, and foremost, YOU want to do. That way her reaction doesn't really matter. You aren't trying to piss her off either, you're simply just learning to once again enjoy things YOU like.
If that means throwing her a party, then great, but don't be surprised if her reaction is something other than you'd like.
One last thing. If your W is going to "dupe" you again, she will. Snooping and the like is not going to prevent that.
Oh man GH nailed it and I just want to add my dittoes to what he posted.
Quote: What I did do, RIGHT AWAY, is see how her adultery, while a "broken vow" for sure, was only one of MANY broken vows in our marriage, and all but that one was broken by me...FIRST
I pretty much did the same thing. I sat my W down on the bed and read her off a list of all the things I believed I did wrong that made her hate me over the years just to show her I got it, I knew, I understood. I took the lion's share of the blame for our relationship going into the toilet and for her losing any affection for me she had.
I don't think that in any way justifies or excuses her choices because those were based on deficiencies in her own character. A commitment is a commitment, no matter what.
But I vowed to love, honor, and cherish her and I pretty well smashed the honor and cherish part, and smashed just about every aspect of love into smithereens.
The M went south far in advance of her cheating. I put her in a bad place emotionally, and she was very vulnerable and unhappy. Someone who's got their act together can get through that, but it just wasn't the case in our situation, and when a woman starts feeling dead inside, the first guy who comes along after that to make her feel like she wants to feel gets the blue ribbon.
Now, in my sitch, and I ain't saying that'll happen in yours, but when she saw me just fall on my sword and not demand that she do the same, saw me acknowledge my failures, and start taking the high road no matter what, she just sort of followed me after she started getting the idea it was for real.
And I think for some, though certainly not all, WAW who find themselves in this mess, when they see that their husbands can turn things around and are willing to forgive and move on, and make things better, that sort of lights the way home for them, and they often get to a point where that choice, although one of many, starts looking pretty dang good.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
I hope I did this quote thing right.... You said...
"I pretty much did the same thing. I sat my W down on the bed and read her off a list of all the things I believed I did wrong that made her hate me over the years just to show her I got it, I knew, I understood. I took the lion's share of the blame for our relationship going into the toilet and for her losing any affection for me she had. "
I would love to do that. I would love to sit my W down and apologize for my actions. But when is the right time to do that? Do I inititate a talk about the R? We have had a few talks and I have apologized, but I want her to understand that I am truly, sincerely sorry. I alsoo don't want her to think that because I'm apologizing, that she has to also. I'm not expecting her to say it's not all my fault and tell me how she messed up. I just want to let her know that if I don't fully get it, at least I'm waking up.
M45, W4,S15, D10,
Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06
current thread
One of the mistakes I made early on was treating my W like a WAW, and I did that because I had just learned of everything. But she wasn't really a WAW at that point (or ever, really). She was still at home, committed to working things out, though she didn't really see how that could happen.
However, she was open to discussing things if there was a point to it. What she was not open to was listening to me rake her over the coals every day. The way she sees it, she just didn't owe me anything because I'd already bailed on her, so aside from apologizing and making some reasonable accommodations to make rebuilding possible, she could've cared less at that time.
There's nothing wrong with talking about the R if your W is living at home and is willing to talk about it, and you talk about the right things, and don't use it as an excuse to delve into all the dark stuff every time. The problem is that it's too easy to start out talking about one thing and end up focusing on all the bad stuff.
Again, that's why counseling with a real MC is really helpful.
The thing to avoid is putting pressure on her about the future, about what you want or expect from her.
Most women are more than happy to listen to their husbands admit their faults Just don't make it a big pity party, or too big of a production out of it.
I just asked my W one night when the kids were in bed if I could have a few minutes when we were already in our room. I told her that I realized I did X-Y-Z, I realize how hurtful and destructive it was. I don't want to be that kind of person anymore, and with God's help (I'm a Christian, btw) I won't be, and regardless of what happens I won't ever treat you that way again.
And then I simply asked for her forgiveness. She gave it. And then I set about making things right.
And that doesn't mean it all just gets better. It's a long, long hard road to forgiveness, for both of you, and it's very difficult and you won't do perfectly, but the only way to lose is to quit or to refuse to learn from your mistakes.
But remember...it only works if you do it because it's the right thing for you, not because you think it will get you what you want from your wife. It may some day, but it may not. There's just not really any other choice because you can't control her anyway. This isn't all just a big misunderstanding, she's probably not just going to snap out of it and say, wow, you really are the greatest. You worked to get together, you allowed things to go bad, and now you're going to have to work 10 times as hard to make em good again.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
So, where do you get all this good stuff? Not just from the DB book.
Now, how do I know if I want to tell my wife what I've been doing wrong and that I'm sorry because I think it will impress her or because I want to tell her for me? I think, being honest with myself, I am hoping it's all a big misunderstanding and once I explain I'm sorry and I won't do it again, she'll say OK and commit to the marriage. Hard to break those thoughts.
M45, W4,S15, D10,
Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06
current thread
Quote: I think, being honest with myself, I am hoping it's all a big misunderstanding and once I explain I'm sorry and I won't do it again, she'll say OK and commit to the marriage. Hard to break those thoughts.
It's good to be honest with yourself, and us. You're right. Right now, this is probably your motivation. Wait until it's not. Wait until you get a better handle on things and you can really express your feelings without any strings attached. You can expect ANYTHING from her right now.
Just do things, THIS thing because it's the right, compassionate, loving thing to do. Remember, one of the major parts of marriage is the "better or worse" part. Just because SHE forsake you in that, you don't have to return the favor. You can be the one who accepts the "worse" times and responds with the love and kindness that you committed to when you said "I do".
Those words were not conditional then...as in "I do, so long as she does first, and keeps doing it no matter what..."...is was I do, period.
You need to start walking the high road right now. You need to do that because you want to be a "high road" kinda guy, not because it will impress your wife.
How about trying to impress yourself.
Oh, and this was not directed at me, but I'll answer it anyway, lol.
Quote: So, where do you get all this good stuff? Not just from the DB book.
In this order (that I read, or started using them)...
1) Divorce Busting 2) This site (going on a year now) 3) The Five Love Languages 4) Getting the Love You Want 5) The Four Agreements 6) The Little Book of Letting Go 7) Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus 8) Passionate Marriage
Of course, my own experience plays a lot into what I talk about here, as does, I'm sure, TL's and everyone else's. There are also more books than that but that's all that comes to mind.
The bottom line is that if you are honest with yourself, with us, and with your W, that's a GREAT start. Reading a lot, at the specific point you're at right now can help a lot too. I would suggest Mars/Venus right away because it may help clear up some of the communication issues you surely have (I know I did).
Hope that helps...and sorry to answer TL's question.
