perfection 2

[whatisis]

Very true, OSU. I can remember a number of years ago deciding to put aside my W's need to work extra hours in her job. She comes from a culture that is extremely work oriented, where doing extra work is ALWAYS the norm. She would work and extra hour or two every evening (and then wonder how she could take time for the kids appointments etc cuz she wasn't claiming any comp time for the extra work!)I decided that this was a cheeseless tunnel, I guess you could say, she was going to work this way and that was that. So I stopped getting annoyed by it, accepted it and proposed to her that if she wasn't home by a certain time we would just go ahead with dinner. That could have been an endless battle between us which is unlikely to have changed this ingrained behaviour. I guess that's an example of what the quote is saying. I think it also means you pick your battles, decide what is winnable and what is not! This wasn't worth all the emotional energy the anger would entail.
It has just occured to me that by DBing versus forcing the end of the S's A we are following the above quote. You can't make your S end it and commit to your R so you adjust and work towards making them WANT to do so. Just my thoughts.

[MuddleThrough]

Agreed - it is DB, and consistant with just about all other reliable relationship advice I have ever read. I remember reading once a story where a man was complaining to a psychologist that his wife nagged him all the time. He said "she really has a problem." The response was that HE was the one with the problem because he was unable to cope with (or resolve through agreement) the nagging in a positive way. He simply kept up the logic "if only she would change we'd both be happier" - thereby building a nice stockpile of resentment to continue poisoning the marriage. I think we all are in the most extreme example of this position - where our spouses technically are emotionally abusing us, yet many of us recognize that this is a great opportunity to learn how to adapt to things the way they are now and be happy despite the bad that is happening. Furthermore, we recognize that we can proactively try and influence the future by changing ourselves now.

I think each of us projects a desired potential (packed with all sorts of personal desires for shaping ourselves or our life experience) onto the other person in the beginning of a relationship. We have to remember that this potential that we see is both an attempt to control and change the person we're with (trying to fix or refine, etc - but all relative to our perspective and worldview) and an attempt to work out our own issues from our past. It has little to nothing to do with them as a person. What we see NOW is what we get. We can agree on goals and dreams and refine our expectations and the potential we see for them, but trying to get them to meet what we perceive as the right way to acheive their potential is clearly wrong. This knowledge is very useful when you turn inward everytime you find yourself critical of your spouse to try and find the reason that this conflict between their actions and your expectations affects you. It's likely that you are projecting an issue you need to resolve from your past onto them and leaving it locked in blame does nothing for either of you but poison your relationship. It's an opportunity that should not be passed on, regardless of where your relationship seems to be going.

Now, this perspective is somewhat at odds with our western, materialistic perspective on life. We tend to believe emotionally that getting something will make us happy. But it's not just anything - there's a quality value judgement, where the better an object, the more happiness we will feel. If this weren't true, advertising wouldn't work on our emotional desire for this happiness in the way it does. The trouble is, we are imperfect beings, and if this logic were true in relationships, we would never get into a relationship with someone we cared about because we recognize our imperfections and wouldn't want to limit the happiness we can bring them because of our deficiencies - and vice-versa, we would be constantly looking for the most perfect person (an impossibility) to bring us happiness. Relationships can't be viewed from this materialistic, transactional perspective if they are to work out.

[whatisis]

More truth, Muddle! Our S's are looking to the OP to make them happy and it just cannot be. Simple. We are in a position, as you say, to adjust to a new reality and make ourselves happy by NOT relying on the spouses actions to do that for us. It is a grand adventure in growing as human beings. Is it hurtful? Sure is. But, life isn't fair (that's one of the "Five Things We Cannot Change") and that's just the way it is. the sooner we get passed that the better. We deal with it. I've always wondered why we spend so much time on drilling the "fairness" concept into our children and our society when in reality it is really just a fantasy anyway!I don't mean this in a negative way but just as a witness to life. Maybe this fairness thing is the secular equivalent of the religious believers God. We are so devestated when something isn't "fair". Maybe we'd be better off if we just recognized that "fairness" doesn't dictate the happiness we feel or don't feel in our lives. Who knows.
Good to hear from you again, Muddle. I hope everything is going as well as can be expected for you (even if it isn't fair! )

[osu43130]

I've always wondered why we spend so much time on drilling the "fairness" concept into our children and our society when in reality it is really just a fantasy anyway!I don't mean this in a negative way but just as a witness to life.

I think that we drill this idea of fairness into our children so that they learn how to treat people. I really think that if they learn to be fair and respect people first the rest will fall in place. They will learn through us that everyone does not veiw life nor treat life the same. Just because we are teaching our kids to be fair that is not nesscaraly saying that people are going to be fair to them. That is where that hard part of bringing up a child is. Teaching them the opposite. Teaching that they will be hurt by people in their life no matter how fair or nice they are to them. Children are so innocent and believe whatever we tell them (for the most part) they look up to us. Especially right now. They see what is going on and people do not give the children enough credit. They know somthing is wrong and are hurt by it. Unfortunately, most people believe that the kids will grow out this feeling. Unfortunately, I have been there when I was little and I still have resentment towards my father for what he did.

[MuddleThrough]

Our S's are looking to the OP to make them happy and it just cannot be. Simple.

Yeah - but how many of US still do the same thing? How many of us hold out hope thinking that if our spouse were to turn around and desire to be with us that we would truly be happy? Can that ever be true? With every situation and experience there are always positive and negative consequences - so while we focus on one or the other in anticipation and ignore the other, when what we anticipate comes about, it never meets the expectations we set ourselves up for.

We are in a position, as you say, to adjust to a new reality and make ourselves happy by NOT relying on the spouses actions to do that for us.

I don't really like the use of the word "make" when you say make ourselves happy. I know that many of us are so caught up in our pain that we do have to make a big transition to happiness, but I generally think it's more about awareness of our happiness and appreciating things that do exist in life, or life itself, that change our state of being towards a positive and happy one. I do have a bit of a hard time viewing this state as obtainable - because it then takes on a material quality - but rather I think this is a state that exists in everyone (if you can perceive it it is a part of you) that becomes stronger with more attention and focus.

I've always wondered why we spend so much time on drilling the "fairness" concept into our children and our society when in reality it is really just a fantasy anyway!

I think it's because we need to have a reliable and ordered way of looking at the world. That's why we have all of the societal constructs that we do. We don't view our societal institutions as fantasy, yet that's what they are - it's just that it's institutionalized (agreed upon and conventionalized) and well defined so we all agree on its existance and its function. I think that this sense of justice and fairness is a moral ideal that exists both in religious paradigms and humanist ones. It's clearly the most socially beneficial way to live (do unto others as you would have done to you). The trouble is that people often choose to put their personal needs or desires in a position of higher priority than the social ones.

I think the devestation you talk about comes from the idea that in a social situation we are entitled to a systematic ordered distribution of stuff (be it material things or attention or time, etc) and if you do X then you can expect Y. But it's not a given, and it takes work and will from others to yield that Y. Also, you are relying on the benevolence of others. Beyond this is the materialistic perspective that is problematic to begin with "if I get that it will make me happy." No, your lust will be satisfied, but you will not be happy.

Good to hear from you again, Muddle. I hope everything is going as well as can be expected for you (even if it isn't fair! )

Thanks for you kind wishes. I'm doing well - my sitch, however is a judgement call I continue to try not to make. Parts of it are clear, others not. It's changing, and so am I. After all, that's the only constant, isn't it?

[whatisis]

Here's tonites reading, I like this one!:
"There is a vitality in us, a sparkle -- a bonfire, actually -- that cannot be extinguished by any tragedy. Something in us, an urge toward wholeness, a passion for evolving , makes us go on, start over, not give up, not give in. To accept the things we cannot change does not mean that we roll over but that we roll on." Nice thought.
Now to my bitching for the night. I may have mentioned that I have begun learning to cook meals from my W's culture. I put alot of effort into doing this for a number of reasons 1) to try something that I have never done before (I now realize how I should have before!) 2) to show my children that my W's culture is important to me to and so is sharing it with them and 3) because I believe it is a respectful thing to do for my W. She works late and I have always done the cooking duties during the week therefore she would end up eating whatever I chose to cook. I have become more conscious of the need to be inclusive and felt I wanted to do this.
The rewards have been that my children are wild about this! They constantly praise my efforts and seem to really enjoy what the White boy is cooking. Now, my W not once has said "I enjoyed that" or "thank you for doing this", never, not once. I just can't imagine why! It's basic courtesy, is it not? Well, I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it but sometimes it just strikes me so odd. Is it resentment? Is it "I don't want to owe him anything"? Is it that she's just an ungrateful human being? Is it that she hates to see me, once again, achieve something while she feels bogged down? Oh well, just thought I'd toss that baby out for you guys! See I'm not all smiles all the time now But it is really great to see the kids so enjoying what I'm doing and to feel that YES I can cook this stuff and it is GOOD! Wow

[12102006]

Whatisis;

What a nice thing to do! You're learning to dance, now
you're a Wolgang Puck!
Marvelous!!! Hey, what did you make btw?

To answer your question(s), I would bet for the last one.
Assuming she eats it, she's probably tired from work, plus
this being a different side of you - she doesn't want to
acknowledge or give you credit for the change.

Ignore it...knowing that she eats your cooking s/b enough
to let you know she likes it. Yes, it is rude and lacks
common courtesy, but she's not herself, remember?

Good for you!!! You are a man of many talents...I applaude
you.

[whatisis]

Yes, number lady, she eats it and often has seconds! It's funny sometimes when the kids carry on about the meal, they will say "Do you like it, Mommy, is it good?" Then she will say "Yes, it is" as though it's killling her to say it! It's fun watching the kids drag it out of her. Tonites meal was 5 spice tofu stir fry on Udon noodles, nappa cabbage with beef and mock chicken with water chestnuts. I am a vegetarian so I have to watch both sides of the fence while cooking for those who are not, it makes it a little harder but it's what I chose to do (Vegetarianism was one of my GAL choices, my W told me she thought I would become a Buddhist next!). Yes, my W can be such a strange person sometimes, but I will continue on as is. I once told her that "I am a good person and I will continue to be a good and caring person. I refuse to let you or anyone else turn me into someone I do not want to be" She had just announced her A and stated how amazed she was at the fact that I was not yelling and screaming at her. So I will continue to be who I believe I am, she can take it or leave it. I have always refused to be vindictive or hurtful re the A and I think, on the whole, I have succeeded in doing that. Now, to work on the things that will make me an even better person!
I forgot to mention that since I have been cooking this way the OP has been sending home little homecooked treats with my W! Soups, ribs etc. Have I got her scared or what

[whatisis]

Flip quoted an interesting tidbit on another thread,
"The very nature of being the "third party" (OW or OM) instead of the "spouse" means it's a fantasy relationship. When people are in affairs, they present a side of themselves that's not representative of the whole person. It's a special version of their best aspects, free from the normal responsibilities involved in sharing a total life situation; whereas the roles and structure of family life create many restrictions and responsibilities. A person's affair is not so much a rejection of the mate as a rejection of these role restrictions. This awareness can be especially helpful in dealing with our feelings of comparison with the third party."
This got me to thinking about how my W's A came to be. Much of what this quote describes is an accurate rendition of what went on, my W became overwhelmed by work, schoool and then the duties of a family, she needed a place/person that was just hers away from the day to day stuff. She found that in OW. On the otherhand, it made me think about some of the things she complained about in our M. One came to mind, "You aren't a romantic person". I tried to address that one but came up short. I began to send flowers, leave little notes, even write "I love you" on the banana I'd pack in her lunch. Nice little things BUT they were concrete actions which fell short of what she saw as true romantic gestures. She was looking for more than some nice flowers delivered to her workplace, she wanted more than "token" gestures (no matter how much love was behind them) She wanted romantic getaways, candlelit dinners, time alone, seduction and that's not what I provided. It's interesting to look back and suddenly recognize that something I thought I was doing well was really not what she desired. I was showing love in the way I thought it should be shown, not in the way she needed to recieve it. Live and learn, I guess. Sadly, she always felt that having to guide me in this area was just another proof that we shouldn't be together. "If it isn't natural and spontaneous then it's not you" So she did nothing to work with me to make this work, she just expected I would know how to do it and if I didn't then too bad for me. So, putting that aside, my insight for today is that we must provide love in the manner the receiver sees as valuable, not in the way that we might see it as valuable. Make sense?

[JokerMan]

Dude give me an update. I have been on the road and busy as hell and have not read up on your situation.