Ok, I am decidedly out of the loop, and Frank/Amy/others are doing a great job with you.
I can't help but get a feeling from the "convo" part of your last post. I may be way off from the recent rash of "take a stand" posting you have been doing but WTH, that's never stopped me before.
Quote: My response was, when you get out of the Jr. High, fantasyland make believe stage.
This sounds to me VERY judgmental. Sure, it's true, but there has to have been a better way to say the same thing. I suspect that this convo just kinda "gushed" from you so I am not faulting you so much as pointing out things ala "Monday morning quarterback". I am just wondering how hard it may be for you to take a stand without being condescending towards her, no matter how much she deserves it. Realize that ALL our wives/husbands DESERVE to be cussed at, verbally torn apart, emotionally ripped open, but we don't do that because we know how it feels and don't really want to be the instrument of someone else's pain.
Quote: When you figure out if you two are for real or playing house because I don't want our children playing house in you make believe world.
Again, maybe next time a less "holier-than-thou" way of stating this may work better.
HH, the REAL bottom line here is that you seem to be doing MUCH better with yourself and I don't know if it much matters how you are doing with her right now. You are getting your $hit together and that's great. I suppose my perspective is shaped a lot by some of my recent reading and lots of talk about compassion and empathy.
Keep working towards those PMA goals and as always, I wish you luck.
Quote: Ok, I am decidedly out of the loop, and Frank/Amy/others are doing a great job with you.
Yes, they are, but NO you are not decidedly out of my loop. PLEASE!
Quote: I can't help but get a feeling from the "convo" part of your last post. I may be way off from the recent rash of "take a stand" posting you have been doing but WTH, that's never stopped me before.
Quote: My response was, when you get out of the Jr. High, fantasyland make believe stage.
This sounds to me VERY judgmental. Sure, it's true, but there has to have been a better way to say the same thing. I suspect that this convo just kinda "gushed" from you so I am not faulting you so much as pointing out things ala "Monday morning quarterback". I am just wondering how hard it may be for you to take a stand without being condescending towards her, no matter how much she deserves it. Realize that ALL our wives/husbands DESERVE to be cussed at, verbally torn apart, emotionally ripped open, but we don't do that because we know how it feels and don't really want to be the instrument of someone else's pain.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. This was the FIRST time I really let her have it during my sitch and no I didn't much care how it came out. I was flaming hot pissed and foaming at the mouth. I made my point perfectly clear to her. This was about the needs and well-being of our children and I am their d*mn father. I do agree with you, though, certainly PLENTY of softer, more loving ways were available to me at this time but I was neither feeling soft nor loving. I was feeling protective of our children. I know that doesn't make my tactic right.
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Quote: When you figure out if you two are for real or playing house because I don't want our children playing house in you make believe world.
Again, maybe next time a less "holier-than-thou" way of stating this may work better.
Not so much a holier-than-thou stance as a "we already agreed to something different and YOU made a unilateral decision for OUR children" stance. Again, I was livid and I finally reached a point where I felt it was really time to let my true feelings out, unguarded. Feeling the need to be protective of my children helped facilitate that venom spewing from me.
Quote: HH, the REAL bottom line here is that you seem to be doing MUCH better with yourself and I don't know if it much matters how you are doing with her right now. You are getting your $hit together and that's great. I suppose my perspective is shaped a lot by some of my recent reading and lots of talk about compassion and empathy.
I AM doing much better, but I am still incredibly hurt and sad in my sitch. I also NEVER forget my contributions to the deterioration of our M including my F-ing A. I know she is hurting and I know she is angry, and THAT'S why she gets as much leeway treating me so poorly so often, but even I have my limits on how much sh*t I can take on before I blow. Sucks, but it's true.
Quote: Keep working towards those PMA goals and as always, I wish you luck.
I will keep pumping up and protecting my PMA, which is my life line in this trying journey. Thank you for wishing me good luck. I need it more now than ever, but I'll rely more on hard work on me. Thanks again.
Quote: I the told her that I needed to tell her something that she may take as rude and abrupt. I told her that I AM the father of our children and I have an equal say in their upbringing. I told her that she would not tolerate me making unilateral decisions for our children and expecting her to abide by them and I don't appreciate her penchant for doing the same. I told her that I would not tolerate any further unilateral decisions by her. She told me that she understood my feelings and that what I said was neither rude nor abrupt. She said she would stop doing that. I told her that unfortunately her behavior had become so common that breaking the habit would probably be harder than she thought but I appreciated her willingness to work on changing and that I would pay close attention to her efforts and applaud her efforts to improve. I think she thought I was nuts for saying that.
Way to take charge and be Alpha Male. Strong and to the point. I like it.
Quote: W tells me that OM has been dating someone else the whole time that he has been dating W and she is really hurt. I tell her I am sorry that she is feeling hurt. It's tough to tread lightly and empathize with W for hurting but not say anything about empathizing with WHY she is hurting. W says we (she and OM) are finished. W then says what's wrong with me? I say that there is one person in this world who loves you more than he knows how to tell you. I told her I am sorry you hurt. I have never wanted you to hurt. She says she knows.
As they say: "Deja F*cking Vue!"
read this from my old thread, around 2/7/06 where she tells her dad 'it's over' with OM, then later when she has a breakdown. It's a pattern.
Quote: I was talking to my dad. He seems to be the ONLY one in my family that does not sit in judgment for taking a stand and doing all that I can to save my M and keep my family together. He tells me that my family saw how my W treated me during our M and they are only fixated on believing that I am blind to reality and that I deserve to be treated better. I tell my dad that I do see how I was treated. I am not blind nor delusional.
I'm glad to hear this. THE most important thing is going to be to keep your changes FOREVER. It is so easy to drop them It's a work in progress and when you are together again SHE has to be doing the work too.
You are becoming your authentic self, and it's leaking into every facet of your life. I'm reeling from all this! You da bomb!
Quote: Way to take charge and be Alpha Male. Strong and to the point. I like it.
Thank you, I felt good about it. The longer my sitch plays out the more often I have the opportunity to see a lot of scenarios BEFORE they happen and practice what I am going to say. When these premonitions become real, I am calm and lucid in saying what I have previously rehearsed that I need to say. Weird, but true.
Quote: As they say: "Deja F*cking Vue!"
True, true, but I know that she is already signing up for more online dating services as I type this. She's so lost and confused. I will focus on working on me and on being the rock in the relationship. This too shall pass.
Quote: read this from my old thread, around 2/7/06 where she tells her dad 'it's over' with OM, then later when she has a breakdown. It's a pattern.
I love reading about the success in your sitch and hope and pray that my sitch has a similar positive outcome. I am bothered that after this most recent OM (flavor of the month, grrr!) that she is right back to putting herself up for auction on online dating services. I am sad that she feels that she is worth so little that she resorts to these tactics in desperation.
Quote: I'm glad to hear this. THE most important thing is going to be to keep your changes FOREVER. It is so easy to drop them It's a work in progress and when you are together again SHE has to be doing the work too.
The past 5-6 months have been an emotional hell for me. I have worked so hard on me and have made changes that I am not willing to give up. I will not go back to my old M, ever. I want to build a new marriage full of love, honor, trust, fulfillment, fun, respect, worship, growth and nurturing. I love my W. I want to love her in a M that matches the love that I feel for her.
Quote: You are becoming your authentic self, and it's leaking into every facet of your life. I'm reeling from all this! You da bomb!
It feels good to know, honor and respect my authentic self. I like me when I am him. HE is deserving of a wonderful life. I will strive to be comfortable being him because I AM always him.
Need help from GH, Amy and Fank. Pay no attention to the order in which you 3 were listed please.
More doozy days. Last night I was with our children b/c W went to her monthly bunco group. When she got back I was getting ready to leave after some pleasantries. I was making my way to the door and my W asked me where R U going? I said to my place. She asked what are you going to do? She started to say something and stopped. I inquired as to why she was asking and what was on her mind. I can tell that she is deathly afraid of me. THAT makes me so sad.
She asked me if I wanted to stay and have a drink. I said OK and had a beer. We talked more and she revealed some of her feelings to me about my A and told me again that she had forgiven me.
She told me that she was VERY hurt when it all came out and is still angry, but she has forgiven me. I reminded her that if she had foriven me, she would not continue to bring my A up and rub my nose in it. She insists that she has. I let it go, but I DON'T believe her. We talked about the reasons for my affair and she did tell me that she knew that I was not getting my needs met at home so.... I told her all of that was true, but that did not excuse my cowardly behavior. She told me that she believes that a married couple should ALWAYS work out any problem and stay together, even infidelity. She said my infidelity is not the problem now for her. She said my treatment of her IS. OW, that hurts! D*mnit! I hate know that, in my W's mind, that I and my treatment of my W IS the problem. So much for me knowing what the F I am doing. Clearly I don't.
I know that I need to continue on in my journey of re-discovering myself, setting my boundaries, and always being respectful of others, especially my W. GH pointed out from my last post that I was condescending and judgemental. I said that I knew that I was and was NOT trying to avoid it then b/c I was in the middle of dealing with my W's R with OM. Regardless, my W's behavior did/does NOT give me license to step of my authenic self and be a jacka$$, regardless of what W chooses to do. I always have options, and one option is to separate myself from the sitch and W so I do not have to witness hurtful behavior. My behavior showed conditional love. Conditional love is worthless b/c it's full of judgement and blame.
Now, the real DB/CR work begins!! I am only in round 3 of this championship bout. I believe I will win as long as I stay our of my way. I have to step up my DB/DR work and praying. I need to lean on my DB/DR brethren to help me with what is appropriate to bring up and when and HOW! Often, what I say is not the problem. It's HOW I say things that really Fs things up for me and others. The one common denominator is ME! Grrrr!
Again back to the real work. I still need to step away and let my W continue on in her journey without judgement and condescension. I must work to re-capture the me who is attractive to my W. I will continue to GAL, love our children, be authentic and not an A-hole.
I know Amy, less talking. Talking is killing my chances at reconciling my M. Less talking, less judging, less condension, AND a lot less talking!! I am my own worst enemy.
This much I do believe. My W is about to embark on a new round of behavior that I don't agree with. I intend to go as dark as I can except for caring for our children. I told my W that one of the things I have figured out during our sitch is that I don't need her, but I want her very much. I further explained that that realization was about my growth as a man and as a husband.
My W also told me that she really misses our children, but that she REALLY needs to go out with her sister's 25 yr old best friend whom I think is a real piece of sh*t. W says she really needs girl time tonight. She spent all day having girl time with this woman today. Apparently she needs to go to a bar to have girl time.
I told my W do what you must, just be careful with your drinking. I didn't tell her my true feelings because that would only come across as judgement and condescending; exactly what I don't want. I do know this, my W drinks way too much when she goes out with this woman plus when my W drinks to much, she behaves poorly, by her own admission, but that doesn't stop her.
At least I will have our children tonight. W is going to do what she is going to do and I truly believe that she is SLOWLY coming back to reality but needs to keep herself busy with friends and/or guys as much as possible to put off looking at the reality of her life and her behavior.
Oh well, THAT is not my cross to bear. I can only do my work on me. SHE has to do her work on her. I always have the option to separate from the sitch and to say NO when I mean no. The option I don't have (and never did have, but that didn't stop me) is to be a judgemental, condescending A$$.
If being my authentic self, setting/respecting my boundaries and always treating others with respect means that I lose my M and my W, then so be it. I truly don't believe that that will be the end result if I stay the course. My job is to make the best me possible with God's help and my hard work. I know my W will not want to begin the process of reconciliation, unless I keep the changes I have already made and continue on in my journey to become the man that God always intended for me to be. She needs to be treated and adored like a queen. I will do that.
I am rambling on. I am confused. I am scared. Any advice/direction you all have for me would be greatly appreciated. I am feeling more unsure today than ever before. Not sure why. Could be that I saw a glimmer of movement in my W and it scared the sh*t out of me.
Thank you for responding Amy. I hope this explanation helps. I see how what I posted would be disturbing and need to be clarified by answering your question. Thanks.
P.S. If you haven't already done so, please read my last few posts. LOTS of "stuff" happening in my sitch/life.
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Quote: Looks like you're getting me for now but I'm sure Frank will be around soon.
You made one statement that kind of disturbs me and I would like to know if you could please elaborate...it was...
Quote: I can tell that she is deathly afraid of me
That really bugs me so please help me understand this.
I'm sorry.
I was really going to say some other stuff but I need you to clear this up for me first...
Absolutely, She is not deathly afraid of me, per se. She is deathly afraid of letting down her guard and letting me inside her defenses for fear that she will be hurt again. She feels that her moat around her heart is her only mode of survival right now. Her feelings/experience that I continue to mistreat her don't help matters either.
The only task I will focus on is to continuse my work on me. I know my affair really destroyed her. I have also come to understand that, often,my words are rude and condescending. It seems that that tone/behavior comes out mostly towards people I care about the most. THAT is an unfortunate behavior problem that I possess. I know that comes from placing my expectations on others and "grading" them against my expectations on my invisible score card. I need to treat those people I care about the most like I treat people I have just met; with kid gloves, with courtesy, acceptance, curiosity, respect, etc. I am learning, but I fear I may be learning too slowly and too late to save my M. I KNOW my W is still off and running like crazy to get away from me, and based on what she tells me her experience is with me, I can't say that I blame her. I need to focus all of my energy on ME and loving my W and children. NOTHING else matters. And I understand that loving my W most likely means detaching and lowering the emotional fireworks that presently exist in that R for me. Her behavior is HER behavior. I must keep reminding myself that her behavior does NOT determine my feeling and response. Her behavior does not make me react; my loss of contol makes me react. I am in control of me.
Okay. For a minute there I just got a very ugly picture. I see what you're saying now though.
I'm not going to type a long point by point post, HH. But I will say that I see some good changes in the way you relate to your wife. Keep on keeping on and watch how you communicate with her and you just might turn this thing around.
And yes, listen more than you talk.
I like seeing her opening up, no matter how little. It's a good sign. What you have to watch for when that happens is that you do not become like a chihuahua jumping up at her for more. Remain cool and calm. Validate. Think before you speak. Keep doing that and she should begin to open up even more.
Sorry but I am beat tonight so that's all for now.
Thank you for taking the time, even when you are beat. You are a great friend.
I will continue to read and learn. I will continue to change my behavior for the better and learn from behavior that works and from behavior that doesn't. I am a work in progress and I cannot think of a project that needs more work than me. The wonderful thing about me is that I am a willing student and understand that I am NOT perfect.
I will talk less, validate when she does open up to faciliate a growing feeling of safety with me, be accepting not judgemental and condescending, be patient, be kind, be loving, be understand and compassionate. A tall order, yes. But I am up to the task.
Quote: I hate know that, in my W's mind, that I and my treatment of my W IS the problem. So much for me knowing what the F I am doing. Clearly I don't.
you are correct. IN YOUR W's MIND is where this all lives. Not in the real world. IN her dream world.
Clearly you DO know what you are doing because you recognize everything you do and make plans to change it. You are way ahead of the gam HH, way ahead.
As far as the 'afraid of you' think. She is afraid of being JUDGED by you. Think about it. She knows in her heart that even though you'r A was wrong SHE is doing the same amount of wrong, or even more, because she flaunts it in front of her kids. There is a quiet place insode all of us where we can NOT lie to ourselves and she fears that place, not you. She's afraid YOU will say or do something that makes her visit that place.
A good healthy fear if you ask me.
Keep going man. stay doing exactly what you are doing.
