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#75336 07/23/02 10:10 AM
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I’m going to forgo the usual recap. I suppose my recap is included in my response to the latest posts on my last thread, so her it goes:

quote:
Originally posted by Fille on Balance (Page 6):

Hey Andy, you're sounding better albeit super tired and frustrated. Still hear a little second wind tho.

What have you been doing to help you to get as reasonably over your humps? I mean in learning how to retrain yourself and old ways of doing things. Maybe a little short time councelling is an idea to pursue a bit? I can't remember if you mentioned it. Sometimes it's nice to go somewhere to get all the junk out and if you're paying then it's a safe zone. I did it for a while...she was very neat and understood I wasn't necessarily looking for solutions from her but I sure needed to get many years of garbage out and she was great for me.

I don't open up to too many people. Most people just don't really know what to do with it and I wouldn't expect them to anyway. It's still nice to have trusted someones who you can lean on in a pinch.

You know, IGgy & I are in the throes of what in the past would have been catastrophic times. It hurts but I still just can't get away from how different it is. We're both so tired and I think we've both been changing a lot over the time too. He's being a right bastard and I'm not taking possession of his reverting...yet believe it or not...it's different. We aren't reacting like we did even when we (mostly he) slips back into old habits that are hard to break. It's actually a huge blessing. Maybe you guys are finding your way around to that sort of thing? I hope so.

Thinking of ya and glad to see you making it thru ok. I've said it before...you're growing and changing too. It's quite noticable. That's bound to cause more rough waters.

Yes, Fille. I’m tired. Had to work late Friday night and all day Saturday. W was out with S#1 all day Sunday, and Monday it was back to the grind. Frustrated? Yup. But right now, I’m a little too tired to feel it.

I’m not sure how you see so much growth in me. The longer this goes on, the more resigned I am to the status quo. Maybe that’s growth but I still resist (when I have the energy). I’m very afraid of apathy. Despite W’s perception, I’ve always cared deeply about OR. Apathy is a 180 that I don’t want.

quote:
Originally posted by lily on Balance (Page 6):

Hi Andy!

First day back after being away from the munchkins for 18 days. They missed me so very much. . .my time goes to them today.

I haven't had a chance to catch up on any posts. I am aware that you've hit a bump. I know that you are going to DB your way around it and go on past into the future.

Andy, until your wife humbles herself and seeks medical attention she will have to deal w the fatigue and low libido.

When I recall the way I was a couple of years ago it is easy for me to understand how she would put herself before you. I couldn't see the tree (Sage) for the forest (all the demands on me). I ate sugar to obtain false energy and drank wine to relax me. Everything was stressful and I remember thinking "something's gotta go". It was my spousal relationship that was given the short end.

In my situation it was perimenopause and an undx thyroid condition.

I had to hit bottom before I could put my pride aside and seek medical help.

Here's where your wife and I differ.

You are holding onto yourself (your integrity) and are monagamous because of a vow you made to yourself. (From Passionate Marriage). You are a compassionate man who loves his wife in sickness and in health, for better or for worse.

What a lucky woman she is. (All us ladies here on the bulletin board know this, Andy!!!)

Andy I don't know what to do to help you except to pray that she will go to the doc and that the doc will suggest doing a t panel.

Meanwhile, be patient.

Andy, it took 8 months for my libido to be restored after starting meds. It would have been so . . .beautiful if Sage had been able to hold on to himself.

One day he will realize what he almost lost.

You will never have to go through what is in front of him.

Yes, Lily. I’m a compassionate guy. But I wouldn’t sell Sage short on that either. It’s hard to maintain your compassion in the face of rejection. It’s easy for me to see how Sage could give up on you if that’s the way he felt. That’s not a condemnation of you, but only an observation about how his perception of your R could make him lose hope. From his perspective, it’s not a matter of what he almost lost. For him, it was lost.

Now, it’s a matter of him realizing that he can get it back.

I’m not so special. I haven’t followed Sage’s path. Not because I have some inflated sense of integrity, but only because I never lost hope.

There’s something in our latest OR talk that sticks out in my mind. W told me that she used to put me on a pedestal, and that the fall off the pedestal was a long drop for both of us. I have to agree. Perhaps she doesn’t realize that I put her on a pedestal too.

But the implication of the pedestal analogy is that it’s wrong to put your spouse on a pedestal. I disagree with that. I think it’s right and proper to put your life partner on a pedestal. To my mind, it’s a matter of seeing their positive traits and ignoring the negative ones. Is that so wrong?

If it is, then I’d rather be happy than right (Lily, that philosophy is such a gem!)

Friends can drift apart or move away. Children eventually go out into the world and make their own lives.

But your spouse is for life.

I love my wife with the intensity of 1000 suns. Sorry if that’s wrong.

Previous Threads:

Andy's Story
We don't know how the future will turn out
Bringing the Walls Down with a Teaspoon
Struggling with Perceptions
Burying the Past
How can I listen if she won’t talk?
Goin’ with the Flow
Balance


Andy
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Andy, I need to clarify. . .

I lost Sage.

He didn't hold onto himself and broke his wedding vows.

He talked a few times of the murder scene. I told him once that he "didn't kill me. . .my love for him survived".

Andy, at the time of the bomb I could have accepted the Divorce. He broke the covenant. I can still claim it because he has not recommitted to me. I made a decision to give Sage unconditional love and acceptance though. One of my strongest characteristics is that I honor committments. I never broke my vows to him other than to take him for granted (the respect portion of the vows). I asked him to forgive me; he said he did.

********

My impression of you, Andy, is based on stuff you've said re your parents. You posted something to the effect that you'd never have an affair. That's a committment to holding onto yourself. That's the way to go.

I don't regard you as being on a pedestal but rather as a Lighthouse, shining bright.

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Thanks, Lily.

I don’t think we disagree, but are just looking at things from a slightly different angle. In a certain respect, your experiences were similar to my W, and mine are similar to Sage.

My point about Sage/me is that if I hadn’t had such horrific childhood experiences with divorce. If I hadn’t obtained so much insight from people like you, the web… even my W, I could have lost hope for my M and may have tried to find the missing piece elsewhere.

I’m not special, but my background experiences are unique, and mine alone. They influence not only my character, but also my perception. I don’t think my character is any stronger than Sage’s, but I’ve been lucky enough to have the aforementioned influences on my perception.

There’s never been any doubt in my mind that you honour your commitments. You wouldn’t be here if you didn’t, and no-one would blame you if you chucked the whole thing. Sage broke the contract. To many people, that releases you from your obligations to the contract. The very fact that you choose to keep up your end of the bargain speaks volumes about your character.

Like I said in my initial post, the pedestal analogy is usually interpreted as setting unrealistic expectations. I think that this is the interpretation my W had when she mentioned it.

But I choose to think of it in a slightly different (perhaps idealistic) way. Insofar as I love and respect my W, I will choose to turn a blind eye to her faults and concentrate on the positive.

You’ve often said that love is a choice. By extension, I think it’s our choice how we look at other people. I choose to love and respect my W. I choose to look at her positive traits.

It may not sound like it when I get frustrated. But, hey. I’m human too, and sometimes my emotions get the better of my intellectual choices.

A lot of the ladies who rallied around me at the end of my last thread got pretty mad at my W. But, rightly or wrongly, W feels like I treated her badly in the past. Perhaps she even felt like a doormat. She’s not out for revenge, but I know she thinks that if she puts me back on the pedestal, I’ll only look down on her and wipe my feet on her.

I know she wants to love and respect me but she’s human, too. Sometimes her emotions can overpower her choices, too.

Andy


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Andy,

I'm going to venture that your W is being ruled by her emotions (hormones) rather than her controlling them.

She doesn't know this though...

*******

Andy, I keep trying to post to you and I keep erasing my posts; it's like I'm not supposed to post whatever it is that I'm thinking so I backspace. So wierd.

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Andy, I loved it when you said you loved you wife as much as 1000 suns. It reminded me of the movie "Message In A Bottle" when he says "you were my true north". Maybe we get mad at your wife because we are envious-envious that she has someone that says such a beautiful thing and yet your R is, shall we say difficult at times. It's not so much I don't like your Wife as it is that I do like you. But...I don't know your wife, I've never heard her side except your perception of it.
Another thing I would like to say is: NEVER say never. We are all HUMAN meaning we all fall way short of perfection and the control we think we have over oursleves and our emotions is just an illusion. I beleive given the right circumstances, the right amount of pain and the wrong amount of good judgement any one on this board could have an affair. This is MY truth. I was as true blue as the day is long, but it happened when all those circumstances came about. I still cannot beleive it. NEVER ME-NEVER. He(OM) Affirmed me so much in a time when I was so very needy I chose not to resist-felt like I couldn't, it felt like an addiction. Now, I'm on the other side of it with my H who I though NEVER would do something like this to me. No one that knows him can even begin to get ahold of how this happened, but it did. And now, like me he has to forgive himself like I did which is the hardest to do ever, and look at life and people differently now-not as judgemental. A place you can only be when you have been the unfaithful one. Knowing, oh how knowing how wrong it was, but yet it happened. DO you remember the movie The Bridges OF Madison County? When that movie came out I had had my affair and it was very difficult for my H to watch. Now....well, he would look at it fromhwole different perspective-still knowing that to cheart is wrong no matter what, but that it can happen to anyone. I know I'll get flack on this one. Rachael M.


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Andy - I don't know if it's so much putting your partner on a pedestal as it is putting your relationship on a pedestal.

People are bound to "disappoint" you, 'cuz there can be a helluva lot of expectations placed on someone that's up there.

Also, as you know, there's a helluva lot of pressure to perform on the person that's standing up there.

Whether it's from expectations placed on them, or self-induced pressure.

JMHO [Smile]


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Rachel,

I just want you to know that you won't be receiving any flack from me. I know that "in a minute there is time for decisions and revisions which a moment can reverse".

I saw with searing perception what our situation did to our children. I witnessed Sage rocking their world. I refuse to destroy their universe. Lotta words just to say that I cannot bear the thought of them having a double whammy.

Rachel, I am isolated. I am going through a very emotionally needy time and am grateful that I do not work where there are those who would help me cross a boundary. I mentioned this to my H one time but I don't think he got the point I was trying to make.

I look at this null time as an opportunity for me to grow and, in time, not be emotionally needy.

I would glady clean my the mud off my knight's once shining armor and even find a pedestal to put our marriage on when we come through this process. I'll settle for a wiser sage and savor my memories of my knight in shining armor. I'll settle for walking side by side in an evolving future instead of an image of how marriage ought to be.

Where once I was ridgid in what I would accept I have become very flexible and accepting.

So Rachel, go forth and DB w all your heart and soul. . .unconditionally, I will add.

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Oh Lily, if you only now what my decision did to my H and my children!! My husband was exactly how you are. He lost it. Was so grieved that words cannot explain-I could not stand to be around him because of the pain on his face. He mourned day and night-no sleep-lost 20 pds, tried not to cry his eyes out every time our kids asked about me-What got me was we rented a cottage on a lake every summer. Every morning bright and early our little then 4 yr od boy would scuttle into our bedroom and climb in to bed with us and we would watch the woodpeckers on all the trees outside our cabin for a long time beore getting up. When I left for one crazy month when I was in my midlife having my affair, my husband at the request of our 3 children took then to the lake cottage. The first morning there our little 4 yr old wentinto my H bedroom and crawled up next to him and said Daddy, I wish Mommy was here to see the woodpeckers with us. My husband tried so hard not to cry in front of him, but nothing hurts as bad as a broken heart as you know Lily. I sobbed when he told me about that and decided shortly thereafter that I could NEVER leave my family. EVEN after experienceing that pain, my husband 11 yrs later had a 2 1/2 yr affair because of his own midlife pain and crisis-I am more understnading than most I suppose because of what I've been through. He was gone 6 months. IT was hell for me and that little boy who is now 16. IT was hell for my Husband because he is a wonderful Father, and has always been a wonderful H until all this. Now he is home. He has to heal-we both to -all over again. You would have thought he could have never allowed this to happen, but we are only human, We make HUGE mistakes and pay the price for them everyday. We have hope though. We are forgiven as soon as we ask for it from God. It's as if it never happened for Him as soon as we ask. I am trying so hard to forgive as he (my H)forgave me 11 yrs ago, and as God would want me to. I have NO idea why this had to happen again to us-we make out own choices,but we also use our experiences to help others. I hope that's what we can do. We are in His arms, and I have put our M in His hands and since doing that things have started turning around. I still have alot of anxiety, but that is something that I have needed to work through for a very long time. Pieces fit together in this jigsaw of life if we only let them. Thanks for your sweet post-I wish you well-My heart aches for you because I can hear the pain in your words, yet in all your pain you are so understanding. You will be fine Lily. Rachael M.


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Andy.

Note. Swans are monagamous; they mate for life.

Good title for your thread! [Wink]

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Rachel:

The reason I say NEVER is that I’m all too aware of the pain an A caused people on these boards as well as their families. I also have first hand experience as a child of divorce whose father had an A. It doesn’t make me perfect, but it sure makes me aware.

Lily,

I can see from your recent posts that you feel isolated. I really wish there was something I could do to help you. All I can offer is a {{{{HUG}}}}, and tell you that it’ll pass. You’re a strong lady, Lily. Just let the feelings flow through you until they fade.

That’s what I have to do right now.

So. Back to me (I can be so self-centred). Like Lily, I’m feeling isolated right now. I guess that’s the major problem I’ve been experiencing throughout all of this.

This morning, W told me that she was discussing our sit with an acquaintance. I hate it that we can’t seem to talk about it between ourselves. Seems like W talks to just about everyone else but me. I suppose it sounds kinda hypocritical of me since I do the same thing here.

What a mess!

So, anyway, the friend recommended a psychologist. She’s considering it.

She called me this morning, and we got into an OR talk. It was kinda difficult since I was at work, and the kids were probably near by to her.

Seems like she has decided to see the C to sort out her lack of desire for me, and will also make a doctor’s appointment as soon as they open (after summer vacation) in order to “cover all the bases.”

She told me that she knows I’m a “good man” That statement sounded a little contrived to me, so I had to ask, “But you don’t love me?” She said, “I didn’t say that.”

She said that she knows I’ve been trying very hard over the last two years. I said that yes, I was, but apparently I was doing the wrong things.

She dug up some old issues (tho, like Fille said, if they’re still there, they’re not old).

I offered to see the C, and she balked. “That’s one of the things you’re going to have to change. You have to learn to butt out sometimes. Some things are personal. <<her friend>> agrees.”

I tried to explain that I care about her and I want to do whatever it takes to make things right. She didn’t buy it. She still resents the fact that when she burned out, I told her to take care of it, and that it was her problem. When I burned out, I “tried to turn it from an Andy problem into a couples problem.” She said that instead of working on my own issues, I bought “that divorce busting book.” (yes, she found out about it at one point but hasn’t read it).

She said that she never thought OR would come to this. I asked her what “this” is, and she said, “A crossroads.”

I’m freaking out a little now.

Andy


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