Your W resents you. I'm sorry to say that, but I know of what I speak. I wish I knew the magic potion to get through to her, but I'm not really sure what it took for me to let go of my resentments. My H thinks it took his A for me to change. NOT TRUE. I starting changing things an entire year before he told me of the A. He now acknowledges that, but I think that makes him feel even guiltier.
I didn't want flowers, cards, anything romantic. I didn't want to do those things for him either. Just last week we were talking about Valentine's Day and he reminded me that it was never a big deal to me in the past. So true. But this year it's a whole different story. I really need those shows of affection now. Strange how things turn around like that.
Trying to analyse myself, I think I finally started letting go of resentment when I started getting enough sleep!! And it probably took a couple of years of "enough sleep," along with no more financial problems, along with the kids growing up and giving me more time, etc., to realize I wanted my M to be better. Unfortunately, it was too late at that point to stop him from being with the OW, but since I kept 180'ing throughout that mess, he realized I was serious about putting our M first and ended the A.
I don't know if that's all it was. I also had a lot of other rather serious issues that I needed to deal with to get to that point (sexual molestation as a child, father who committed suicide when I was only 5). So much that kept me from connecting totally to my H.
Anyway I don't really have any advice, except to keep doing what you're doing. Things seem to be getting better. I hope they continued that way. If I think of anything "earth shattering" I let you know. Your wife seems to be in the same place I was. I feel like I know her.
And here I see yet another example of how the seemingly opposite situation yielded the same results....
Matilda says above, "I didn't want flowers, cards, anything romantic. I didn't want to do those things for him either. Just last week we were talking about Valentine's Day and he reminded me that it was never a big deal to me in the past. So true. But this year it's a whole different story. I really need those shows of affection now. Strange how things turn around like that."
Wow...I used to get all that, I GOT all those shows of affection-we were very 'close' b/f A. Then he left for overseas and decided (I guess) to 'start anew' and see if he was really better off w/o me. B/F A we were always close, spent virtually all our time together (being military and moving a lot didn't lend itself to long-term friendships) we were always touchy-feely, sex was often and great, I got the little shows of affection, love notes on the bathroom mirror in my eye-liner, cards, little notes stuck on my car windshield, flowers every V-day, every holiday-and even not on holidays. We always made a big deal out of V-day, we always made a big deal about birthday's and anniversary, and Christmas holidays.... Now those things just make me angry, I don't like the idea of flowers on a certain day..."guilt flowers"-because-it's-V-day-and-I-have-to-flowers...no thanks. I don't get those other little shows of affection anymore, I'm not sure how I feel about them. I wonder if he thinks about doing any...I have done some over the past 15 months and they have been pretty badly received, I guess he feels guilty about deserving them (?) he didn't say anything...the quiet man strikes again-leaving me to my own suppositions. I suppose I still want them (little show of affection that I used to get)...but will not allow myself to be upset that I don't get them-because I don't, and probably won't. I used to hear "good morning beautiful" on a regular basis, 'beautiful' was a nickname of sorts, so was 'love of my life'. I can't remember the last time I heard either. (unrealistic expectations)
I do still long for what we had-when I was the most exciting woman in the world to him...I miss the man who loved me like that. I wonder if he was just someone I made up inside my head-or if my H was just putting on a show and this, this NOW person is who he really is and always will be.
Finally had the dreaded OR talk the other night-at his insistance, I put him off for a good while of him asking me what was bothering me-not that HE wanted to talk to me, but he knew I was getting to the 'full' line. We talked. Nothing extreemely enlightening...basic household-type stuff, cleaning, being sick....I did manage to scratch the surface of how I feel (backslide of sorts) I told him it made me queezy to think about 'talking' to him...he asked why and I told him because I felt he really didn't want me to. And that he was some how just placating me because he 'had to'. He didn't answer. Sometimes silence IS the answer. I told him how I felt that in the past I was too open with him and realized that I overwhelmed him. I also told him that sometimes I have a hard time seemingly holding this M together, it gets tough to do alone.
You said, Andy, that you have stopped the nagging and that your wife sees this as 'everything's ok'....and coupled with the excerpt from the WAW syndrome...I can see myself there. As long as I act like everything's fine, H is OK. Like you say-I don't wan't D, if I did I'd have been gone a long time ago, I just know that I am in a holding pattern of sorts, if I return to my old-open ways (and be true to myself?) then I, as you say Andy, will jump right into that old cycle again..which led to A....what a vicious circle...I refuse to go there again.
I am wondering, Matilda, what did it take for you to see that you holding your H and your M at arm's length was the road to the end? You say you decided to make some changes well before H's A...what were those based upon? How did you get there?
I’m not entirely sure if W still resents me. She’s always maintained that she let go of the resentment, but it was plain to me that she hadn’t. However, it’s been a long time since I’ve given her anything to fuel the resentment, and she hasn’t shown any signs of resentment either, other than the fact that she can’t bring herself to give me anything that I want. She’ll give me anything that she would want/expect, but is not willing or able to put any thought into my needs/desires.
It’s kind of a catch-22. I can’t ask for anything because I’m afraid that she would see it as placing undue pressure on her. At the same time, she’s not a mind reader, is she?
But, I’ve been doing a pretty good job of reading her mind I’ve done all I can to help her get more sleep. She’s far more rested than she has been in a long time. She’s been worried that I’ll lose my job and that financial worry is gone now that I’m to start a 6 month project at work. She’s been relatively free to do her thing, and it is I who have been taking care of the family – particularly our handicapped son.
One of the signs that she has perhaps let go of the resentment is that she lets me do all of this. We used to get into a sortof pissing match about who was sacrificing the most but now she lets me make sacrifices and even expresses appreciation.
At the same time, I can’t say that I’ve been a bundle of joy lately. I haven’t been sleeping well, and though she tries to help me deal with my impending travel, I’d rather not talk about it. At least my worry about travelling masks any other concerns I have, so there’s nothing that can be traced back to her.
I’d love some “earth shattering” advice, but I think you’re right. I just gotta keep up keeping up. If the resentment is still there, it's all I can do. If the resentment is, indeed gone, then it's all I can do to keep it from coming back.
Hi Jen,
My Gen’s birthday was this weekend. It was a hoot. However, Gen and I both got deathly ill and spent Sunday barfing. Oh well.
Me2,
I was composing this post when yours came in. Will get back to ya.
Like you and Matilda, I used to buy flowers, etc. with a note “Just because I love you”. We used to call each other “Mon amour”. She would look at me and say “T’es beau” and I’d say “T’es belle”. We held hands all the time. We too spent virtually all of our time together. We didn’t have many friends close by, and whilst raising our kids, we didn’t have much time to seek out friendships. When I got so caught up in work, W bought a book. It was one of those “One Minute Manager” type books. One of the suggestions was to do a one minute kiss. We did this every day when I came through the door after work. All of this made me feel secure, and I always thought it made W feel secure and loved too.
When the bomb dropped, all of this stopped. As I entered my depression, W told me that she felt that I “needed her, rather than wanted her.” And flowers, etc. were perceived as “guilt flowers.” Not in the sense that I was trying to alleviate my own guilt, but that I was trying to lay a guilt trip on her for not reciperocating.
But, I’m still going to get her chocolates and flowers for Valentines. My answer to the question “And Andy, how do we get 'out of here'?” is that we stop these things when they become an irritant, but we slowly reintroduce them when things have calmed down. It’s kinda sneaky, but I think that if you introduce them slowly enough, they’ll seem natural before our spouse has time to realize it.
I think the same thing goes for openness. I don’t believe that we should ever be “totally” open with our spouses. After you live with someone long enough, there are more and more little irritants. If you tell him/her everything that’s bugging you, you’re nagging. As Me2 so aptly put it, it’s overwhelming! A lot of things pass, and if it’s one of those things, you should let it pass.
So, right now, I’m letting everything pass (holding pattern). I think I have to do that for quite some time in order to put the resentment behind us. But when things are more comfortable, I’m hoping to be able to discuss my feelings with her – whether they be negative or positive.
Another thought, Me2. It’ll always rub you against the grain if you think of changing yourself as not being true to yourself. Unfortunately, some of the changes force this situation. But, if you can gradually get to a compromize situation, one where you aren’t “totally open” or “totally closed”, then you can change your true self to a more balanced behavior. I don’t know how much sense that makes, but I’ll toss it in anyway.
TTFN, Andy
[ February 12, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: ANS ]
Quite honestly, I had wanted things to be better for a long time but knew I needed to work on myself first -- had to like/love myself before I could do same for H. Near the end of my journey H and I had a R talk. He told me in a way that he never had before - so that I "got it" - how my standoffishness had affected him over the years, how hurt and alone he felt. I felt horrible. This man had cherished me (or so I thought before he told me of 1st A many years ago). He was always the one who brought up OR problems (at the time I thought he was just complaining because he wanted more sex). He was the one that was affectionate, loving, and really tried to nurture the R the best way he knew how. Unfortunately, we weren't on the same wave length about that (perceptions, perceptions, nasty perceptions!!).
I want that H back, too. I miss him so much. We have a great opportunity to really make something great out of this mess, but he's not totally with me emotionally right now, and I'm pushing too much (see "Getting Over It). I'm also still very hurt and angry. I'm just so confused right now I don't know which way to go.
Andy,
If your W says she doesn't hold any resentments any longer, believe her. She's working her way back to you. It sounds like you're doing everything you can. What more can you do? It's ultimately up to her to decide to let it go and love again. It takes a long time to recondition one's mindset, but ultimately the brain has to let go of preconceived ideas when they are no longer being validated.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: It takes a long time to recondition one's mindset, but ultimately the brain has to let go of preconceived ideas when they are no longer being validated.
Beautifully put, Matilda. I think you’ve put DBing in a nutshell.
That old brain/new brain struggle haunts every DBer to the max. It is funny because we don't even know that the old brain is working until whamo! It does take a long time for the new behaviors to work their way into the old brain and the others to leave. Each new behavior is transmitted, pondered by the appropriate brain section and then filed in the appropriate place. Bad thing is the time for things to get filed in the old. The same behavior has to be repeated over and over again until the brain buys that it is genuine. I guess this leads to consistent changed behavior over time = trust re-established. Trust that feelings won't be destoyed again. Trust that WA's feel safe again. Andy I think your plan of Sunday nights and Thursday nights is wonderful. I did it for awhile. Only 1.5 away at the time but I worked extra long each day and then split Thur night and returned Mon morning. Now your looking at 6 months. Maybe you could even have some of the kids up during march break. Cool for them and big break for Mom.
I’ve been trying to give W space for oh so long now. And it’s working. We aren’t advesaries anymore. We’re on the same team. She includes me in some of her activities, and keeps me up on her comings and goings. We’re on the same wavelength wrt family responsibilities. So. What’s missing?
Intimacy.
Or as Rapunzel put it, the “spark”.
W appreciates the space I’ve given her, but from my perspective, the space is between us. Other than “business” issues, we are only living in parallel with a few social events (with other people) thrown in.
I need more than that. I need the intimacy we once had. I need physical intimacy and a true sharing of feelings.
This morning, I felt the need to be close, so I slipped my hand around her waist. She “allowed” it for a few minutes, but then pulled away and said it was too hot.
I don’t know how much longer I can handle the rejection.
Oh, Andy, you and your W have come so far. You know the PMA comes and goes. It's difficult to continue giving space when you don't appear to be getting back what you need (not want). But what's the alternative at this point? You already know the answer to that questions.
Our M lacked intimacy for the past several years. Only now do I realize how important that is to a M and what real intimacy is. For some reason I just never understood before. Now I'm ready to give that intimacy, but my H doesn't want it.
Are we ever ready at the same time? My reading of this bb says it DOES happen for some. I guess I'm hoping you (and I) will find that place sometime soon.
Keeping hanging on, Andy. You're doing SOOOOOO well!
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I’ve done all I can to help her get more sleep. She’s far more rested than she has been in a long time. She’s been worried that I’ll lose my job and that financial worry is gone now that I’m to start a 6 month project at work. She’s been relatively free to do her thing, and it is I who have been taking care of the family – particularly our handicapped son.![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon}