I was just in her office and saw written on the back of her business card the title to one of Michelle's books. How to change your life...
It was with some cards she brought back from vegas. I know very well that the friend she went to see in Vegas had marital problems a few years back. He gave us a marriage help book as a wedding present. My wife forbid me to read it and it's probably the only book on the subject I have not read. Hmmm now I'm wondering if he is one of the old timers on this board.
I asked her if she wanted to read it and she said maybe in her nervous tone.
I just slipped it under her pillow. Normally a no no but maybe it's ok. ???
I'm taking her on a surprise date tonight but I just got caught. She was getting suspicious and asked me what was going on so I had to tell her. I suck at secrets. Oh well it's the thought that counts.
change your life and everyone in it its a great book thank god she didn't have the other one written down changing her man without him even knowing it that could have indicated big problems with you
so you are not allowed to look huh?
you blew the surprise - you will have to practice and get better
Yes it is a fantastic book and it explains SBT in the first two chapters. Good stuff. I'm very surprised at her being interested in it. Finally!!!! Even though I don't argue my point or pressure her at all (although I still did but very subtly up until just a couple of weeks ago) I think it is still a little about her not wanting to be wrong.
Last night was great, very romantic. I arranged for us both to get out of work. I packed a nice little picnic and we went to a concert in the park. Two guys in the band played at our wedding. We had a wonderful and fun time. Talking to the band brought back memories of our wedding. She called me honey.
The book, well the couple that gave it to us had marital trouble right from the start I'm sure. They had some issues before marriage that were bound to cause trouble. They gave us the book with a note that said it really helped them. At the time I think my wife wouldn't let me read it because she figured we just would never have any problems. We had it all figured out. We had waited until we were 30 and old and wise before getting married.
Funny W used to talk about how we were so smart to wait until we were so wise to get married and then when things went bad she'd say "We were only 30, didn't know what the hell we were doing". Yesterday we were talking about our D17 and she said "well she better wait until 30 to get married"
After things went bad the book was out of bounds because she had decided there was no fixing things.
Now I could probably read it and it would be fine with her. She seems to be moving cautiously into the figuring things out and fixing them mode. They say here on the boards that the WAS will give no signs of wanting to work on things until very deeply into the fixing process. I guess this all is an excellent sign and pretty evident that things are about to finally work themselves out.
We have another really fun date planned for Friday.
Well we had a great date Friday night. It was a great concert (Rob Thomas, Jason Mraz). Didn't really expect to like both performers but they both were awesome.
I was a bit jealous of the couple that was with us. They've probably been married 25 years and looked like they just fell in love. Maybe they did. I get the feeling they've been through it though. I'm pretty sure that everyone that gets to where they are must.
I'm thinking at this point we are really completely down to one issue. It's fading but still there. The idea that for a woman to truly be independent and strong she must be single.
I believe we have solved everything else to a workable degree. Maybe even the question of children.
I've been wanting to give a quick synopsis so here goes.
Married coming up on 8 years In turmoil a little over two We've never really fought but have learned to when we needed to Our situation was strange but the process has been the norm. Best way to explain it is if you were to think of us as inadvertently becoming involved in a kinda cult like mafia. When we left there was big trouble. So in addition to the regular old stuff (financial pressures, family pressures, societal pressures) we had this group of people that wanted us gone (sounds paranoid I know) We pulled off some incredible accomplishments under extreme pressures to get out of the situation and finally now, 3 years later, we are escaping the financial pressures. A series of deaths that affected us immensely. The first death was my mentor and this is what put everything into a tailspin and changed our world Then one of W's close friends was murdered. I lost one very close friend to cancer and another to suicide. A few more on top of that to natural causes but all in a very short timeframe. W already had a terrible fear of death, this didn't help
We were both terrible at relationships knowing what I now know. She was terribly controlling and a terrible pessimist. Very explosive temper and always negative. I was the eternal optimist and when my ideas were shot down I was very creative in my revenge, making her feel stupid and unworthy.
When we married we had a 5 year plan, we were going to discuss kids at that time. Things went south the month before. Coincidence? No
There was no affair but it was damn close. At first she said she never loved me and really loved an old boyfriend. It was when she saw this boyfriend that things got bad. I am quite certain (I think) that there was no affair but all the signs of it were there. Not physical signs like phone records and such but more the way she acted.
Started counseling Jan 05. Counselor did a great deal of damage. She announced her own D only weeks after we started C. We continued to got to her. She convinced W of all kinds of crazy things. Very feminist movement stuff.
Separated mid Nov 05 ( found this board a few days later) Started DB'ing. On Thanksgiving we had a blow out but still went to dinner at her parents. That night she told me that even though it was over between us she wanted me to still be part of her family.
Next day she showed up and hung out for a few days.
That became a pattern, she would stay and then go.
Even now she still will say she is going to go to her place occassionally but ussually doesn't.
I believe we have solved all of the R problems. We have both changed dramatically. We are best friends. We do everything together ( I try to make sure we have separate time) We talk a great deal and have a lot of great quality time.
We're at a point now where our issues of disagreement are actually becoming something to joke about a little. Not solved but they feel lighter.
But from her comments this idea that to be her best self and develop to her highest potential she must be single still lingers. Her actions show that she obviously wants to stay and loves me very much. But she does not want to give in on this point. And I don't want her to give in because she will always feel like she has given in and our marriage will not reach it's potential.
This idea has been strengthened by the audio series "Women who run with the wolves" which I think is very misinterpreted.
She lives with me now and has even changed her language to "us". But there is no intimacy. She still sleeps on the couch. She is still holding out.
I have pulled away and this helps. We are in a state of comfortable. But I am not comfortable. I know if I pull away hard she will panic and come after me. I have seen hints of this. But I want the core issue solved so that she knows she is on the right path.
Whenever the subject of other couples splitting comes up she always thinks the woman should leave and go become a strong woman. This is the constant. Yesterday we had a discussion on this and she agreed with me on some of my ideas on this. She's had this idea that we could be partners and her strengths over me and our relationship would be the same. Have her cake and eat it too sort of thing. We talked aboout other couples and marriage dynamics. Several couples where it is obvious that the man would not be succesful without the woman's guidance but with her he is a powerhouse. Another close friend of mine who has the potential to be very successful but needs a womans guidance. W has always suggested getting an assistant to keep him in line. I made the point that it would never work because he wouldn't listen. Only a wife has that power. If she isn't doing him she has no say in the matters. We talked about R dynamics and how couples work together to be succesful even if the W is a housewife. Doesn't matter.
I am hopeful that we at least put some question in this long held belief of hers that our R would be the same if we were not married. Strange fantasy belief I'm sorry to say, but nevertheless a belief.
I know we are butting heads on this point but I'm not sure where I can give on this. Hopefully the humor coming into it will dissolve it.
We have an outstanding R otherwise. Except I am getting weary. Sometimes now I feel as if my own love for her is dying. I know this is not right but it's a feeling that creeps in sometimes. More so in just the last few days. I have always craved her body. I am becoming less interested. I worry about this because I know I love her. Just don't feel it all the time anymore.
it sounds like your love for her is not dying but may be undergoing some kind of change I don't actually see it as what you want - but get the feeling that you have come so far with the friends part that you love is becoming more like that for a friend I don't see this as something good for the marriage though you need to be friends within the marriage and you know what I mean - I mean exactly what you are hanging out for
it is sad that she seems to think still that being single is the meaning of strength when the reality is that it is so much harder to be part of a couple and retain who you are at the same time how many people marry and become carbon copies of each other
I still think that you need to up the level of GAL for yourself at the moment you are in status quo I think she is happy here and will remain happy here for a long time you need to create some discomfort for her a little incongruence in how it is and how she thinks it is
maybe some little hints but not outright saying that hey we are great friends but I want a wife not another friend so even though I am happy with how things are it is not enough
it is actually very easy to walk away and be single and worry about no one but yourself - it does not show strength but selfishness and egotisticalism (don't know if I made the ism up or not) walking away and being single is all about me me me how can you be strong when you walked away how can we (you and I) work out how to put this in words you w will understand and how can we have her understand and feel that this is ok but Xue wants a wife and partner not a friend
this will be hard to nut out but hey we are smart yes?
Well considering that where we are is pretty close to what she said she wanted in counseling then I'd say yes she's comfortable.
She apparently can stay in this state for a very long time.
I see things have gotten a little better each week. But so very little. Things are slightly more affectionate.
Yes I plan on making things a little less comfortable and being less predictable. I had a plan for that last night. She was going to go up the hill to take care of some things up there. She actually asked if I preffered she go last night or the next. I said to go ahead and go but to leave me with the nicer of our two cars. I was going to go out. I didn't say why I wanted the car but I do know she fully expected me to just hang here and even asking that might have been a surprise. Believe me I planned on surprising her much more.
She never left. She hung around doing laundry and such until I finally said I was cooking dinner and would she like some. She then said that she just couldn't seem to get out of here so she'd rather stay. Later she made the point that she wouldn't be going at all.
I've been doing little thins to pull away. Not being quite so available. Actually I'm kinda doing what got me into this mess in the first place, I go to my computer in the morning instead of her.
I debate in my head all the time, words or actions, which is going to solve this. And I know it is actions.
I do think she is more confused than ever. She shows more affection and definetely wants to be with me. But some wrong thinking is confusing her.
She does seem to get nervous about my actions very easy. Last week when I was packing to take her on the surprise date and she saw it she got very inquisitive but tried to act like she wasn't.
So yes I need to GAL hard.
It's been hard because I get of work late at night in a small town. There is nowhere to go. We have the most social place in town, there is nothing else.
This week is going to be busy for me but I'll be gone a lot. Maybe there is opportunity there.
Yes, without a doubt I know I need to upset the status quo. She sabotages my efforts though. Maybe next time I'll just go out anyway.
We are right at the two year mark. It's been two years right about this week since I've gotten any. This is why I've been more frustrated the last week or so. Really it's just a number but I'm starting to get to the enough is enough stage.
Some days I really love her. Other days my frustration overshadows that.
I know she figures that if I go out I'm probably vulnerable and I am. One of the things she married me for is my extreme loyalty. She was very secure in that I would never mess around on her. That was really a big thing for her since she came from several relationships that were much different than that. One guy she dated was a married man and had a half dozen young girls on the side. They all thought he was going to take them away and marry them.
So I am way to predictable and way to trusted. She knows where I'll be, she knows what I'll do. She used to love me for that but I'm sure that quality is percieved as something different now.
This path of listening and quality time has taken me a long ways to fixing this marriage. Learning the marriage skills I have learned have brought me to this point. I do think that she might even want back in our bed. Her language says so at least more than it used to. But there is no reason to make it tonight. and tonight and tonight...
Her independent woman language has gone away also. Like I said before the I's and me's have turned to we's. But the idea is still slightly there.
Her sister is recently married but made her fortune on her own. She is very wealthy. I think W really looks up to that and wants to be that. But never takes into account the price her sister paid. She got where she is by sleeping with one of the richest guys in the state. She worked hard also but she definetely had a boost. And he was a terrible person, she had a miserable life. But W only sees the end result.
Actions, actions, actions. I need to rock this boat.
In thinking about these recent postings and what I have been butting my head against I think I may have stumbled upon the terribly obvious.
All this time we've been gridlocked with this idea that she thinks she must be single to be a strong indivual and to grow and be happy and successful.
The reality is that this idea is not saying she wants out of the marriage, it is only saying that she wants to be strong, happy, and successful. Someone just told her a lie that she has to be single to do it. But the reality is that she is already becoming it. Marriage has done that to her. These struggles have done that to her. She is very close to becoming what she had set out to become. One day soon she will wake up and realize it herself.
When things went bad we had a terrible life. Terrible stresses and we were in a terrible emotional state. That is in the past. Life is good now and getting better all the time.
So maybe if I helped a little by working out what strong and independent means. A little helping her DB. That ole how would it look stuff that is so awesome and powerful. I can do that.
So BJ had some great stuff on it.
What is strength? What is a strong individual? What do they look like.
1. Not drug down by their emotions. They do not react to the emotions and actions of others.
2.?
I fell in love with her because I percieved her as a strong woman. It would sure make sense for me to support her in becoming that.
It won't, I was grasping at straws since we seem to be in this hovering pattern for so long. I couldn't figure how we had come so far but couldn't finish the job.
This morning I have been told why!!!
Or this morning I finally heard why!!!
The word is overbearing. She said when talking to my C that my C said to her "It must be hard living with someone so overbearing" and she said "Yes it is"
This is the first I have heard this. W told me she assumed the C told me this.
This is big time forest trees stuff. I'll have to come back later and post.
Folks at least we know what the problem is. This is big even though it hurts a bit.
For a very long time I have asked my wife "am I arrogant" The answer has always been "No your just smart and know your stuff"
Today I asked again but I said " I know I have asked this question a hundred times and you always give me the same answer, but do I come accross as arrogant" I then said I asked my C a long time ago and she gave me the same answer as you. My wife was startled by that and said "What did she say"
I told her that my C simply said that I seemed to be an expert in my field and an expert in many things and I was just teaching at a high level. She said it was like a phd teaching high school students.
My wife said that her discussion was different. She said my c said "It must be hard living with someone so overbearing" My wife said yes it is
I was a bit disgruntled at my c since I have heard nothing of this. My wife assumed I had. My wife said well the C had some whacked ideas anyway like her track record. All she was concerned with was her track record not my wife's happiness. I concurred and said she hadn't helped me a terrible lot and that's why I haven't been back The C said I was doing perfectly and she didn't have much advice for me. Actually said I was so on track I needn't be there. That what I had gained I had gained elsewhere.
My W apologized for telling me. Said she thought I knew and we had had the conversation before. Apologized for ruining my morning. I said no I did not know and thank you for telling me. Although it is hard to hear I need to know.
So we went in for breakfast and talked a little more. A bit of humor crept in. she talked a lot about it being a man's world.
So when I told her I needed to know to deal with it and change it she said that's impossible. "What are you going to do, you are incredibly smart and you hate to see people screw up, what are you going to do just shut up and not say a word."
I think there is a lot in that statement.
Last night we were talking about my proffession being a man's world (or she was) and she was talking about ruling behind the scenes. How a woman in our profession gets her power from who she is wed. This is true in our traditions. She was proud of her ability to do this well.
At breakfast I cautiously mentioned that she was a bit overbearing too. This is nothing new. She says it herself all the time. She said yes she is but when a woman does it it's called nagging and then she stated several descriptions of terms when applied to men are positive but when appplied to women are negative.
She said yes she was extremely overbearing but her overbearingness was overshadowed by my own. She said if it wasn't for me she would seem extremely overbearing. But in a woman it is called nagging.
Now this all should have been very obvious to me. In the idea of unfinished childhood business (do we subscribe to this?) Her father is extremely overbearing. He is very knowledgable or is that a know it all?
So at least I have something to go on here. Maybe this is good. Maybe I should get her "How to change your man..."
