Well I haven't got to the mall to get anything yet but I'm going to try to make it soon. Long drive but I'll find the time.
Yesterday we did a community event for kids. Had a great time and a great event. Very happy that it's our last big event of the season though, it's been a busy month. We sat and had beers together afterwards and fell asleep on the couch.
I wish I could DB perfectly, I don't think anyone can though.
I still notice the ups and downs however they are very slight.
It's funny, it's obvious she wouoldn't be without me. She wants to go everywhere I go and be with me all the time. This is about something else. I still think that her C convinced her that to be independent and strong she had to be single. We had a little bit of a conversation about this the other day in relation to my brother. My brother floats from r to r and just dumped a really nice girl. He's an idiot. But he was throwing out phrases like "losing myself in the R" losing his freedom and stuff. She asked me if I wanted him to be saved from his continual R patterns. I said yes but he never will until he buckles down and follows through with a relationship. It's the only path to strength independence and personal growth. This struck a cord in her and she strongly disagreed. I elaborated slightly but shut the conversation down pretty quickly. Didn't want to argue the point because I could see she'd get very defensive quickly. But it gave me a strong clue that is the issue. At this point I think it may be the only major issue. Hmmm, how to solve it?
Quote: focus on you and you will feel even better about you and she will feel great around you
This is so true. And it works. I'm doing more and more of it. I think it is causing a conflict in her. She wants to be around me but she's been told she needs to be alone to develop. I'm happy because I know the emotional side always wins.
Yesterday she asked me to take a bunch of stuff to the laundrymat. Stuff was just to big for the home machine. I did. She was very appreciative. She went and visited her parents.
Last night she asked for a massage and I gave her a really nice one. She enjowyed it a lot. I wasn't at all cautious about where I put my hands. She didn't seem to mind. Got a really nice made for the bedroom type kiss when I was done. Now I's call that a step forward. She had had a little too much wine.
This morning she let me know that it had been a great massage.
you really ought to do something to tip over the status quo can you not have differences of opinion without arguing it would have been very interesting to find out her thought patterns on this issue
the world is full of couples/family members individuals living with others yet remaining individuals at the same time
interesting
but more important here is how you can tip the scales on your whole sitch - as opposed to working out how and why she thinks something
Yes Bj, Please do think on this. I certainly have been.
I didn't take the argument further because I already knew her thought patterns. She prizes the strong woman ideals but does not yet see how she can be the strong individual woman that she wants to be but also follow a strong man. What she does not realize is that she is already in this position. I have evolved, she has evolved. Maybe the answer is in this.
I wanted to touch on the argument but not go into it and elicit a argumentative response. I think I did that. She will think about it I hope. She keeps commenting on other people and how if they would just "insert whatever" they would have successful relationships. But does not see her own forest. Or maybe she does and just doesn't admit it yet. I don't know.
But somewhere in there is an acknowledgement. Maybe she just hasn't put all the pieces together in her own mind.
Yes, there must be a way to make it happen.
When I was going to my C she said that the last stage of this would be the challenge of convincing my wife that personal growth and individual strength happens within "the confines" of marriage. She predicted that the outcome would probably be dependent on my own patience. She said it was very possible that it would take up to a year. It would just be a matter of me staying on the path for the duration. But I do think we are at a point that something could act as a catalyst to get us where we need to be. I just need to find that catalyst.
I'm not even sure if the independent woman thing is important anymore. It may just be a leftover from past thinking that is ready to dissolve.
She's great at room design and knows a little about Feng Shui. Lately people have been requesting her help in designing their office space. So I suggested she learn a little more Feng Shui and either start doing it professionally or just as a hobby. She likes it. She blew me off and said "yeah right after I get my real estate license so I can make some money". She was using me, I mine, phrases a lot which I hadn't heard in a long time. So I said,"that's great" and walke out. A couple minutes later she was in apologize mode. Hanging out with me, watching what I'm working on, making jokes.
So my brother calls for advice. He's having problems and I've turned into the guru on relationships. Not surprisingly he's having some very similiar issues to what I had. I talk to him for a bit and give him some help but he's not ready for all of it. It truly is a journey you have to take on your own. His SO is misinterpreting things he says as digs. When he's offering advice she takes it as telling her she can't do it right. Man that sounds familiar. On one side she's got self esteem problems, on the other he's a pompous ass.
When I mentioned that she had self esteem problems my W mentioned that he was a pompous ass. I very humbly said "well yes he is, but so was I at one time"
So W and I talk about it and the parrallels are obvious. We're obviously talking about our own R too. So finally it comes out. She very sarcastically asks "So what'd he call for to ask your advice on how to win her back?" I instinctively knew this was at the botom of things so although I was shocked and backed into a corner with the question, I was prepared. My answer: "No, he obviously has his own personal issues. I told him that it is very possible that the relationship may not be saveable. However if he runs from it he will eventually find himself back in the same spot with someone else. The only solution to improve his own life is to go through it with her. Walk through the looking glass and see what's on the other side. Then if the relationship fails it fails, But if it fails the next relationship will be rid of all of the problems and will be a great relationship."
I changed the subject to something nice, poured a glass of wine and gave her a kiss. We had a nice evening after that.
On the wall of my office I keep a qoute I printed out from BJ. It starts out with
"I already know the outcome want to know what it is?"
That thinking has been so important. In the beginning she was adamant that I did not change for her. I just told her that I did not, it was for me. It's my ride and if she wants to come along then that's great. If not then someone else will and she'll be missing out.
The next step is that she needs to make this HER decision. If she comes back fully because I've convinced her of it, it'll never be right. But if it is her decision then all is good.
you seem to have lots of opportunities to have very indepth discussions without the arguements usually involved in differences of opinions you also seem to be getting closer and closer to being able to ask outright so what's going on here - what are you thinking?
I know that DB says not to do the R talk but I think you may have gone beyond that -
the situation with your brother may just have been one of those opportunities to say - well he probably asked because I'm his brother and he may also have asked because from the outside it may look like we have solved all our problems from last year????
this kind of leaves it like you think they are not all solved but outsiders think they are solved and it may elicit some input from your W as to what she is thinking
she seems to be pretty happy with the way things are going but they are not where you want them so I guess how long do you keep things the same without makeing a change and seeing what happens
remember at the beginning make a change and watch the results
what would happen if you went out and didn't say anything about where you were going and hence didnt give her the chance to come along I don't know I guess I am thinking of creating a situation that required discussion
I really think you need to look out for opportunities to discuss where you both think you are at in all this
the alternative is to GAL big time on your own and act like two friends sharing a place together who just happen to get on well what would she think if she thought you were not happy with things the way they were and she thought you had decided to get on with your own life and not hang about anymore
I don't have any insight into the being independent and being married mind set she has except that it may be some kind of protection thing she has used for so long it is just a learned behaviour thing
I still don't think she is as self confident as she appears otherwise she wouldn't have the overwhelming need to be independent and smart and everything else
if people think I am some kind of dumb female I figure that is sad for them - I don't get defensive as I know I am not and don't need to prove it to anyone
she seems to like people ackowledging her independence strong female stance which seems to me to be a bit false
also when you have done things alone she has tagged along either at the last minute or made it clear she is coming too
I really do think you may have been in the lets communicate better about us stage
to be able to talk about what each sees for the future to discuss hopes dreams goals etc sounds like she doesn't know how to do it for fear of it becoming a war to be won something that someone has to win or where someone is right and therefore someone wrong
I don't know but I do think you need to go back to basics and do something different experiment a little and get the communication happening between you a bit better
yes this is very much what I've been thinking too. I'm going to have to think on how to do this. I guess it just scares the hell out of me to start an R talk since they have gone so badly in the past. I'm not even sure how to talk about it yet without it turning into a someone has to win thing.
I've also thought about the Gal like crazy approach.
Yes she does seem to be happy in the current sitch. She acts happy all the time. Happier than I've seen her in years and years.
Whenever I think of an R talk I just see myself giving ultimatums and that wouldn't be good.
I am tired today. Didn't sleep much cause I worked myself up and got upset over nothing at all. Haven't done that in awhile.
I'm going to think on this and yes I need to do something different. I've been all over the boards looking for ideas lately. Just not finding it.
I just don't know if what she is thinking has yet caught up with what she is feeling.
She acts like everything is fine, everything seems good, but there are still subtle clues that she still is thinking this independence thing. Things such as thinking about going away for a couple days off by herself and not telling me unless I ask. This is very bothersome.
Realizing now that the emotions of the last few days were just old stuff surfacing. I was reacting to stuff that was probably more imaginary than anything. I worked myself up and lost a nights sleep over it. I haven't done this in a long time. Don't feel slipped really, just old emotions bubbling up I think. Yesterday afternoon I felt the exhaustion of dumping a bunch of emotions. Felt good though. It's a strange thing.
Last night Miss negativity apperared again. Kind of expected since I was off dealing with people that made her angry. I deal with the situation in a positive manner and give people a chance. She lashes out. She does not forgive. I am over forgiving but have learned to deal with this. When I say anything positive about the person she is mad at she goes into a negativity rampage.
It got to me at first and I started thinking that she is just an incredibly negative person and not worth being with. Then I stepped back and realized that these tirades are few and far between lately. They are now the excepttion, they used to be the rule.
I've thought a lot about an R talk vs not. I've come to the conclusion that an R talk carries a great deal of risk and not much chance of success. I can hear the aggravation and defensive attitude in her voice when we barely touch on it. She is truly the most stubborn person I have ever met. She won't give up.
So I'm not going to fight the fight. I think that any perception of me working on things elicits the "smarter than her" defense. I think any R talks do the same.
In her separation letter there was a statement that said she was following her feelings. That I had convinced her so many times that her feelings were wrong and because I was smarter than her she listened and did what I said. But she felt bad about it. So I think that anything I do or say which seems like trying to fix things elicits this response.
So the answer is to GAL and to analyze myself and anything that I do that is pursuing or is percieved as pursuing I must completely stop. Occassionally she comes to me and I'll certainly "pursue" that. But I'll have to let that happen.
I'm far more detached now and far more able to do this. The goal for me is that everything I do, I do for me. If it is to manipulate it will be percieved as such.
