When he informed you he was stopping by the pub, did you tell him what you had planned? IOW, was he well aware of your intentions when you gave him permission to drop in for a beer?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Now I felt inside someone may point out that I gave him permission to go to the pub so I am ready with my defence...
Firstly, I told him weeks ago that I didn't lke him to go to the pub and then come over. He KNOWS that. He just chose to put his own needs before mine. I think it is unfair for him to think of my home as half way house between his place and the pub.
Secondly; he often asks me if it OK to do stuff...he should be thinking to himself what the right thing to do is...surely? In asking me he kind of hands responsibility over to me. If I had said NO don't go to the pub he would have stored it awy n his 'she is controling folder' If he wants to go to the pub I am more than happy for him to do that INSTEAD of coming over. His choice.
No I didn't tell him what I had planned but maybe I need to make it clearer that after looking after the children all day...looking forward to and planning a meal/evening. Doing the extra shopping, tidying up, getting ready that goes with having someone 'him' over to then have a phone call to say I will be late is very upsetting.
I can't tell him what to do, I don't want to but if we have an arrangement.. a date I expect him to stick to it. If I let him do whatever he wants and just accept it I will just become a doormat again..a very miserable door mat at that.
On the grand scale of things that people seem to put up with this is a very minute thing my H is doing to annoy me, I know that...He's trying hard to please I know that too...but there is no point in going along with stuff thatI don't find acceptable I am only storing up problems for the future.
I really do need to find a better way to deal with this though. I have said to him that I will see him friday. I will drop the boys off. I did this last time he annoyed me; froze him out for a couple of days and that didn't seem to benefit anyone. Must think again about this.
Before I give you more reason to think you need to go on the defensive... I'd like you to print out your previous post and make some red line corrections.
Subsitute "Pink" for "H" and an activity you like to do that he doesn't approve of. See how you feel about seeing that in print?
Does any of this need to be a deal breaker and a night ruiner?
Quote: No I didn't tell him what I had planned but maybe I need to make it clearer that after looking after the children all day...looking forward to and planning a meal/evening.
Yes, but this was an unspoken expectation, Pink. How could he possibly have known how hard you worked without you discussing this with him? I fear that you are placing expectations on him without giving him fair notice that you do expect something from him. How fair is that? And how would you feel if you were constantly letting him down when he didn't even notify you that you were being tested?
Let's start there...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Before I give you more reason to think you need to go on the defensive...
Who me?
I'd like you to print out your previous post and make some red line corrections.
Subsitute "Pink" for "H" and an activity you like to do that he doesn't approve of. See how you feel about seeing that in print?
Does any of this need to be a deal breaker and a night ruiner?
<sigh> no it needn't be an evening ruiner but I am looking for more than just an evening thing. I am looking at going the distance and if I 'allow' him to do things that annoy me or treat me badly then that distance isn't going to be very far. I don't think I ask a lot. I don't ask him or want him to come here every night he could go out with his mates on nights he doesn't see me.
The thing is I am with my children 24/7 it is hard work, if he says he is coming at 5pm I am looking forward to it so when he cal;ls and says he will be an hour late it is a big issue to me (especially if I have cared for the children by myself for the previous 2 days) I need him to come and take the pressure off a little bit so that I can unwind and get from mummy/teacher mode to wife mode. I know he needs to unwind after work...my theory is that if he came from work we could unwind together!
Yes, but this was an unspoken expectation, Pink. How could he possibly have known how hard you worked without you discussing this with him? I fear that you are placing expectations on him without giving him fair notice that you do expect something from him. How fair is that? And how would you feel if you were constantly letting him down when he didn't even notify you that you were being tested?
I agree Betsey, I need to make it clearer why I want him to come round early on days we have decided to spend the evening together. Maybe he just doesn't 'get it'
Quote: no it needn't be an evening ruiner but I am looking for more than just an evening thing. I am looking at going the distance
Good, I'm glad you said this! What I read here is that you feel you need more from him than what you're getting. Is that correct? You probably want some assurances that he's working toward the same goal as you are, right? Well, why not schedule some time and discuss this issue directly?
The pub is a smoke screen, Pink. I hear you say you don't like it. But forbidding him? That's controlling. And control issues are rooted in fear. Why do you fear him going to the pub? Is it:
1. That you are not accompanying him? or 2. He drinks and you don't approve of that? or 3. He's choosing to spend time away from you when you want to be with him? or 4. You want him to account for every minute of his day and control really is your goal?
I do understand why you're irritated that he chooses to hit the pub first before heading over to see you vs. choosing to do that on the nights he does not. Do you know for sure he doesn't do that too? (That might signal some other issues with alcohol...)
If you do know for sure that he doesn't go to the pub then, why do you think he chooses to do it when you want time from him? Plainly said, is there any reason he might be afraid of giving in to you and your fears? Losing himself and his voice?
Pink, Mr. Wonderful was guilty of this too. Only when I gave up the control did he change HIS behaviors. That's how it works. Because I have no right to make demands on him and expect him to kowtow to me and THEN to expect our R is going to be happy. It doesn't work that way.
It seems to me that you 2 could benefit from some rules for engagement. Or at least to discuss your feelings so you can define your expectations.
Mr. Wonderful and I shared an awfully similar dymamic as you and your H. Our MC taught us a technique I call the Interrogation so we could pick a topic and discuss it and keep the communication lines going. We don't need to follow it now, because we are both active listeners and I have lost most of my defensiveness.
Here's how it works:
Pick a topic to discuss--and I'd choose the pub since it's really bugging you. Then you agree to either be the interrogator or the responder. Let's say you get to start by asking questions and he starts by only answering them.
You can ONLY ask him questions (no statements or opinions allowed), and he can ONLY answer them (same rules). Once you are finished asking, you signal the end of your questioning by asking one final question: Is there anything else you need me to know before we change places?
Let him have his voice and then switch... He only asks questions and you only answer them. He ends with the same final question. If there is still more there, you can continue to engage or if you're both satisfied, you can stop.
What this does is teach us to stop defending and attacking. Have you ever argued with him so vociferously that in your head, you're already forming rebuttals to his attacks and neither one of you are listening or caring to empathize? Well, the interrogation technique destroys that dynamic because you cannot make rebuttals when you are only asking or answering questions.
Pink, you have a serious case of expecting him to read your mind illness. I don't disagree with your wish list, though. I know I'd be annoyed with Mr. W. if I were in your shoes. But you can't approach this sitch and hope it to change if you don't speak up. And you can't expect him to listen if your fears are being splattered all over the place and it makes him uncomfortable to tell you the truth.
So share with him your theory. Tell him what you need. And offer to give him what he needs too. But that doesn't mean you get your way... he may still want the pub. And you may still disapprove of his unwinding method. How can you address your fears instead of attempting to get him to see your position more clearly and agree with you?
(I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work.)
Frankly, I really don't see a hopeless situation here. I think it looks fabulously promising. But in order for both of you to have a voice in your R, some serious communication changes are going to have to take place. You're the one who has decided that you want to make this work, so I'm afraid the change of communication course is going to have to be initiated by you.
Now, let's get to a happier place... Can you list 10 positive things that have happened between you this year?
What you focus on expands. Let's focus on those positives.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Good, I'm glad you said this! What I read here is that you feel you need more from him than what you're getting. Is that correct? You probably want some assurances that he's working toward the same goal as you are, right? Well, why not schedule some time and discuss this issue directly?
Now this is an issue Betsey...but for him. He has actually said that he feels he is not giving enough/ doing enough for 'us' at the moment. he's much friendlier than he used to be, he takes me out, chats more he has changed heaps. I am happy with the way things are going and not needing to rush stuff. I am doing more for him and feeling good about it. I do feel that he wants me to tell him that I love him, I do think HE is looking for reasurance. That is what makes this pub thing *so* annoying.
The pub is a smoke screen, Pink. I hear you say you don't like it. But forbidding him? That's controlling. And control issues are rooted in fear. Why do you fear him going to the pub? Is it:
1. That you are not accompanying him? or 2. He drinks and you don't approve of that? or 3. He's choosing to spend time away from you when you want to be with him? or 4. You want him to account for every minute of his day and control really is your goal?
NO, No no... I have an open invitation to just turn up. On Tuesday when he came for dinner he sent me a text saying why not pop up wit the boys.. I'm not really into pubs. I am not anti pubs or drinking. I drink. I think the answer is number 3. He chooses to take time that he has promised me and go to the pub. I would be just as annoyed if he was going to the shops or for a game of tennis. He promised that he would come home at 5..he should come home at 5.
I think he does pop into the pub when he isn't here. I think he is very aware of alcahol. Both of his parents have alcahol problems ... maybe he is devloping one; I hope not. He never ever drinks in the house for some reason. I think it is because his parents did, but I will keep an eye on this.
maybe you're right. he could think that if I stop him from going out on a Tuesday I will demand more and more pub free days until he isn't allowed to go any more.
If you do know for sure that he doesn't go to the pub then, why do you think he chooses to do it when you want time from him? Plainly said, is there any reason he might be afraid of giving in to you and your fears? Losing himself and his voice?
I am now wondering if he is so insecure that he is doing it to upset me...to get a reaction that I care. Does that make sence?
Pink, Mr. Wonderful was guilty of this too. Only when I gave up the control did he change HIS behaviors. That's how it works. Because I have no right to make demands on him and expect him to kowtow to me and THEN to expect our R is going to be happy. It doesn't work that way.
I know what you are saying!1 When I stopped nagging H to give up his job in London and move nearer home he did...LOL.
Mr. Wonderful and I shared an awfully similar dymamic as you and your H. Our MC taught us a technique I call the Interrogation so we could pick a topic and discuss it and keep the communication lines going. We don't need to follow it now, because we are both active listeners and I have lost most of my defensiveness.
Thanks for sharing that Betsey! I will give this ago.
Pink, you have a serious case of expecting him to read your mind illness. I don't disagree with your wish list, though. I know I'd be annoyed with Mr. W. if I were in your shoes. But you can't approach this sitch and hope it to change if you don't speak up. And you can't expect him to listen if your fears are being splattered all over the place and it makes him uncomfortable to tell you the truth.
LOl, Yo are sooo right Betsey. It doesn't help that he is the least perceptive person I know.
So share with him your theory. Tell him what you need. And offer to give him what he needs too. But that doesn't mean you get your way... he may still want the pub. And you may still disapprove of his unwinding method. How can you address your fears instead of attempting to get him to see your position more clearly and agree with you?
(I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work.)
I have a couple of little ideas up my sleeve... 1. Join him at the pub ) 2. Drop the boys off at the pub (It is hugely child friendly) so that I can get the break I need. 3. Text him and tell him what he is missing at home and what I have planned for the next time he comes round...
Frankly, I really don't see a hopeless situation here. I think it looks fabulously promising. But in order for both of you to have a voice in your R, some serious communication changes are going to have to take place. You're the one who has decided that you want to make this work, so I'm afraid the change of communication course is going to have to be initiated by you.
I agree Bestey. I was reading a book recently entitied 'Nasty Men' It described H to a T, as a 'Mr Nice Guy.' passive aggressive type of person. It is very difficult to get him to communicate any negative feelings at all. He tends to agree with everything I say and then do what he wants anyway. I mean he has actually agreed not to go to the pub before coming round LOL and thn he did it! I am just going to have to be one step ahead of him.
Now, let's get to a happier place... Can you list 10 positive things that have happened between you this year?
I agree - definatly not hopeless...just teething problems!
Ok, he has avtually taken *ME* out to dinner in a restaurant!
He has taken all of us as a family out for Sunday lunch twice...
he has given me a card with chocolates...(found them on the step this morning!)
We have spent quality time together and enjoyed it.
I have given him a massage. (first one ever)
We are communicating a lot more through e-mail, text phone and chatting...
I have cooked things for him that I know he enjoys.
We sit closer and touch more.
We have both noticed changes in each other and commented on them.
We are much kinder to each other, more thoughtful.
You know Betsey... The only friends H has are those he drinks with. His family do not live locally. I think it is important to him to keep these friendships alive with his mates; he may see them as a safety net in case things go wrong between us. They have very little in common other than they like to srink beer and watch football... I don't see them as a threat or anything..
I promise to come by later on, but your post reminded me of some stuff that some of us discussed a really long time ago. I had to dig into the bowels of the BB to get one of them, and when I have time, will seek out other threads of mine where Meredith and I discussed the intricate dynamics of our marriages--which are eerily familiar to yours.
I'm pointing you here because of the discussion--which contains an exercise I'd like you to consider doing. Please read everyone's responses and I think you might discover some interesting observations in your own R with your H?
Quote: You know Betsey... The only friends H has are those he drinks with. His family do not live locally. I think it is important to him to keep these friendships alive with his mates; he may see them as a safety net in case things go wrong between us. They have very little in common other than they like to srink beer and watch football... I don't see them as a threat or anything..
This paragraph really disturbed me, Pink. For one, I could have written it myself. But instead of asking you to see this as a threat (as it was in mine), can you tell me if he does allow family and friends to get really close to him? Or does this set up feed his choice to keep at a distance from other people?
Just want to hear you expand some...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Thanks for the link. It was good to read more about your situation, especially as it is so similar to mine. I guess the point you are making is that H may have problems that are associated with his childhood. I have often, often thought the same.
I have done a little research into ACA ...and am willing to do more, but what do I do with the info? talk to H? He won't want to know. He talks very little about his family. I know very little of his childhood at all. When I asked what his mum was like he said she was lovely...his dad also. He will not look at the negative side. Even when he has talked to me about their drinking it is as if it is not their fault...
I should point out that his sister is a serious alcaholic.
Is he close to his family? I don't know..I can't tell what he is feeling and he doesn't tell me. He is the dutiful son, he phones his mum every so often, never forgets her birthday etc. But close...I don't know. He doesn't confide in friends or family. He keeps every one including me at a distance. I have wondered if he doesn't like himself and so he tries to show very little of his true self in case I don't like him either.. just my thoughts here trying to find ways to understand his behaviour.
He has a lot of people who he keeps in contact with. He will give his number out to anyone...I don't think he is close to them though. (It doesn't seem like he is..)
One thing I do notice probably from being ACA is that if people are not nice to him or let him down he doesn't seem to care, it doesn't effect his relationship with them. He gives people chance after chance after chance...
I suppose the key to my R with H is to understand more about ACA and ways that are effective when dealing with them....Did your H speak to you freely about his childhood or is it something that they spend so long as children trying to hide that they just can't share as adults?
OY, Pink! I should have been more specific before I bolted... I didn't intend on you focusing on that ACA discussion but the exercise that Meredith started on considering (the bottom of page 1). I think it's something that might benefit you... I wanted you to read on, as there were several people who posted their "considerations" as well (including me).
However, I will say that Mr. Wonderful is an adult child of alcoholics. Conflict avoiding, emotion suppressing alcoholics. I'm not trying to draw any lines between your H and Mr. Wonderful or Meredith's XH... but just asking questions to learn more about why he's not got people in his life who are really close to him.
That's a dynamic my XH has encouraged since he moved out. He actually started it long before then. When we met (in CA), he had a large group of really good friends. Then we married and moved here. He didn't seem anxious to make friends. And he was asked... his simple reply when I asked him? "You're all I need and you're my best friend."
I let him know that one of the reasons I fell in love with him was the fact that he had a life and a group of friends who are friends and not acquaintances... and I didn't want to be responsible for his social life. The years went on, and you can imagine my surprise when he told me after he left that he resented the fact that our entire social life was built around my friends. Pink, that was his choice and doing, and not mine.
But the underlying theme here might bear more mulling and consideration. If he seems to prefer hanging out with bar mates as a simple objection to your control, that's easy enough. But if he chooses to engage in Rs where there is no intimacy or depth, it might be a smokescreen for a really huge issue.
I say these things not to be an alarmist, but just to find some stuff to chew on and consider. Which is why I wanted you to do the consideration exercise....
Make sense?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hello pink - As Betsey said, this thread is cooking on gas
One thing I do notice probably from being ACA is that if people are not nice to him or let him down he doesn't seem to care, it doesn't effect his relationship with them. He gives people chance after chance after chance...
I find myself wondering why this is so. Does H otherwise display a generous and forgiving nature? Or is his expectation of people low anyway? Does he think this is normal, in which case pink, does he expect that you would keep giving him chances no matter how many mistakes he makes? Is his self esteem so low that he believe he deserves nothing better than people letting him down? I ask because I see shades of NG in your H, and honestly, it is an area I have not yet had the courage to go into
Betsey 
I'd like you to print out your previous post and make some red line corrections.
I don't think I ask a lot. I don't ask him or want him to come here every night he could go out with his mates on nights he doesn't see me. 
Does that make sence?
When I stopped nagging H to give up his job in London and move nearer home he did...LOL. 
)
Pink, that was his choice and doing, and not mine.